stealth vs. hardware requirements?

[Traceur]

do you remember that quote:

What is your position on stealth?
You mean in PvP, right? Stealth should be a combination of your skills as a player, combined with your character's Skills. As we can't represent every obstacle to hide behind, or every light source, there will be Stealth in the game that is somewhat "magical". Likewise, detecting something or someone that is "hidden" is not entirely up to you, as one or two Skills might help. It's all about balance though, so we will see.

Exploring the U3 engine info, I found some interesting tidbits:

• Advanced shadowing, providing full support for four shadowing techniques:
o Dynamic stencil shadow volumes supporting fully dynamic, moving light sources casting accurate shadows on all objects in the scene.
o Dynamic characters casting dynamic soft shadows on the scene using projected shadow buffers. Multiple shadow filtering methods are supported including uniform PCF, jittered PCF and VSM. Filtering methods support varying quality settings and are optimized to take advantage of platform-specific features.
o Ultra high quality and high performance pre-computed shadow masks allow offline processing of static light interactions, while retaining fully dynamic specular lighting and reflections.
o Directional light mapping enables the static shadowing and diffuse normal-mapped lighting of an unlimited number of lights to be pre-computed and stored into a single set of texture maps, permitting very large light counts in high performance scenes.

Essentially, as far as I can understand it, Mortal Online can support full physical stealth (realistic shadowing & camouflage), but since it will require everyone to have full shadowing up, it will be at the cost of the ability to downscale the need for high-end performance, giving the game much higher minimum hardware requirements.

given a choice between a Mortal Online where stealth depend on your own skills of hiding in shadows and using camouflage for your advantage, or a Mortal Online with more accessible hardware requirements, what would you choose?

[admiralnlson]

You don't actually need all that to make player camouflage/stealth possible.

I mean, for example, "Dynamic characters casting dynamic soft shadows".
How would that even be related to stealth? Are you going to hide behind another player and expect that the quality of the shadow rendering will help? ^^

Besides, anybody could also deactivate those in their graphics cards option or using programs like "nHancer", change the "gamma" on their screen, etc... to be able to detect everybody.

I guess we'll have to wait for details from the devs before discussing this.

[Abydos]

I really dont care about stealth ! So, i think magic and skill are good for stealth.

[OMGPIE]

Stealth should be more like camo which is possible with the unreal 3 engine so I think they should put in the full shadows and stuff like that.

[Sarkon]

A game like this without stealth would be pretty boring and it wouldn't make any sense.
Not that I wanna be thief or whatever in particular but I think that if I never get backstabbed at least once, I'd be pretty deceived.

[F0rd]

I made a post on stealth earlier, let's see if I can remember what it was... stealth should be affected by shadows, camouflage, etc., but should also be a skill that makes you partially (up to like 20%?) transparent as well as being camouflaged and in the shadows. As long as you aren't doing anything to draw attention to yourself (i.e. attacking and being attacked), they should only be able to spot you if they're paying very close attention to their surroundings.

[Shinzon]

Even if you don't have the graphics to run it, you could just make stealth a simple low tech transperant...

[Asmodeus]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

You don't actually need all that to make player camouflage/stealth possible.

I mean, for example, "Dynamic characters casting dynamic soft shadows".
How would that even be related to stealth? Are you going to hide behind another player and expect that the quality of the shadow rendering will help? ^^

Besides, anybody could also deactivate those in their graphics cards option or using programs like "nHancer", change the "gamma" on their screen, etc... to be able to detect everybody.

I guess we'll have to wait for details from the devs before discussing this.

/nod

Gammalaunch

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

You don't actually need all that to make player camouflage/stealth possible.

I mean, for example, "Dynamic characters casting dynamic soft shadows".
How would that even be related to stealth? Are you going to hide behind another player and expect that the quality of the shadow rendering will help? ^^

Besides, anybody could also deactivate those in their graphics cards option or using programs like "nHancer", change the "gamma" on their screen, etc... to be able to detect everybody.

I guess we'll have to wait for details from the Dev's before discussing this.

LOL, I'll admit i copied & pasted the shadowing segment from U3 engine's feature list without really going through them one by one.

but the point is that they can make the features the basic minimum requirements - this means that if any of them are deactivated or non existent the game won't run.

as for gamma, there is a technique i heard about which allow real darkness/shadowing by applying pitch black onto those areas of the screen - no amount of gamma would make them clear. i don't know if U3 shadowing uses that technique or not.

[Nehemia]

This game isn't coming before 2009, and by that year, computers with enough requirments to roll this game smoothly will be darn cheap, we don't need to worry about the requirments too much.

[Nox Vortem]

Let's keep in mind that you will be playing in 1st person view which provides a much more limited view of the surrounding. On the other hand, the dev. has mentioned that they will find a way to "hide" the nametags so that even if you are spotted, your name will not bump up and give away your position. These factors will make stealth easier and more fun to play. The question is do you think that stealthy player can be a "plague" in the game world? Personally I believe so because it's human nature to do something different especially breaking the law.

[Furai]

The fact is, I'd prefer not to see nametags at all. If I'm crouching on a hill 300 yards away watching you through some far-seeing skill, you shouldn't be able to see a floating name above my head. Hell, you shouldn't be able to even if I'm only 50 feet away. It just takes away from the fun of the game. If you have to, make it on mouseover, preferably after several seconds.

In regards to the hardware requirements, I'd rather the detail be high and requiring better hardware, mostly because this is a next-gen game, and the graphics should be A - Damn good, and B - More captivating than say, WoW (absolute shit in case you didn't know).

So what if we've got to shell out a few bucks to run the game on high settings. It was probably time for an upgrade anyway.

[Hampo]

I really really would like them to make it light / enviroment based , but theres to many people who just dont have the computers capable of running it so they gonna have to go magical.

[auutumn]

I believe my PC could handle camouflage/stealth without resorting to cheats such as tweaking the gamma so ya, increase the specs. But, to be fair, perhaps there should be certain areas where this comes into play, an instance perhaps.

[Aiten]

No invisibility. Stealth isn't about just shadows, its about blending in with your surrounds, such as crowds, shadows, bushes and using routes above or below eye level (sewers, rooftops). Adding invisibility is like taking a giant piss all over what stealth actually is.

Lets assume a 2010 release, so that means they should be aiming for a £100 card now (the 9600GT/HD3850), both of which will cost about £10 in 2010, and can easily run full dynamic shadows etc. No reason to do it for hardware requirements. Basically, by aiming atthe £100 card now, its designed for top spec machines 1-2 years ago.

[Sarkon]

I hope they will implement controller adaptability, cause I like to walk REALLY slowly when I get close to someone, and that's not something you can really do on a keyboard. But it can easily be done on a controller with a joystick. Maybe even a possiblity to play using a 360 controller? That'd be cool and if stealth isn't just about turning invisible, it's about not being seen or heard at all, so I think a controller would offer a great control over that kind of gameplay.

[Drabant]

Even if it is environment based it will have to be "magical". But that doesn't mean I can hide in the open. If it's just down to my actual hiding skills it's too easy to cheat.

Let's say someone is hiding in the bushes. Server-side mechanics decide that he has successfully hidden, and will thus not send the data that he is there to other clients. In the same way you can hide in shadows, or whatnot. This way it won't be dependent on graphics, which really only is ok in single player games.

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Drabant

Let's say someone is hiding in the bushes. Server-side mechanics decide that he has successfully hidden, and will thus not send the data that he is there to other clients. In the same way you can hide in shadows, or whatnot. This way it won't be dependent on graphics, which really only is ok in single player games.

That requires the server to actually have to determine whether or not you hid succesfully, based on your position, the environment, occlusion, the field of view of every other NPC and PC character in the vicinity.

Maybe it wouldn't stress the servers that much, but I'm pretty sure it would.

[Warpath]

I say, stealth should be player skill. I can't count how many times I have played FPS and have some one sneak up on me and knife, shovel, crowbar me to death.

Shadows would be a plus ALL around not just for stealth.

Again, stealth by player skill not character skill for me!

[Traceur]

what if...
the higher your character's stealth skill, the less noise you'll make
+ the less weight your carrying on you the less noise you'll make
+ the slower you move, the less noise you'll make

basically, this means that while everyone has stealth mode (going light & slow), but the higher your stealth skill, the faster you can move & the more weight you can carry while still being stealthy.

at the same time, you'd have to consider carefully your character's slow & camouflage (completely player skilled)

[Warpath]

Originally Posted by Traceur

what if...
the higher your character's stealth skill, the less noise you'll make
+ the less weight your carrying on you the less noise you'll make
+ the slower you move, the less noise you'll make

basically, this means that while everyone has stealth mode (going light & slow), but the higher your stealth skill, the faster you can move & the more weight you can carry while still being stealthy.

at the same time, you'd have to consider carefully your character's slow & camouflage (completely player skilled)

I Agree, BUT, as it is you can't hear crap in these games already. But you'd have to hard code stealth in atleast to a point so you can sneak up on NPC characters and monsters. So maybe linked with your idea there will be some transparency... I don't know... I will stop posting here cause I don't have any great ideas.

[Traceur]

and neither of us know the limitations of MO's engine

[SnowMiser]

Actually, one of the only things i liked about WoW was the stealth. totally invisible, untill you got close to someone. then you "shadowed".

I thought that was pretty realistic.

Not a fan of total invisibility....except in the assassian class.

[Anemos]

I would go for full shadowing as well but there's a lot who will argue on the hardware needed. Then again I don't think that it will be much of a problem in 2009 I think most hardware can easilly take that by then

[Traceur]

moore's law working for our favor...

[Blahman]

I don't want any transparency or invisibility unless it's a magic spell. I think stealth should be first and foremost a player skill, not an explicit character skill. Meaning you would actually need to stick to the shadows, wear dark or camouflaged clothing (or even disguises), be aware of your surroundings, and use the environment, concealment, and line of sight to your advantage. As long as first person view is enforced, at least for everyone on foot, it would not be too hard to be sneaky provided the surroundings are suited for it. If you're in an open field in broad daylight you might have problems, as you should.

I don't like how in most MMORPGs you can just disappear anywhere at any time, by simply using a hiding skill. It should be almost completely player-skill driven, highly situational, and dependent on the environment. If there are sneaking/hiding skills they should be ancillary and passive only, meaning they might help you move more quietly, do more "backstab" or "first shot" damage, unlock better stealth gear, etc. But if pushing the "hide" button and turning invisible is all there is to it, I'd be somewhat disappointed.

Since there is PVE though, it might be difficult to program an AI sufficiently advanced to behave like a player would when faced with a sneaking opponent that is using concealment, shadows, etc. Would the AI be able to be made as unaware as a normal player would be when the stealthy player is partially concealed by vegetation, for example, or would the AI look right through his cover? How would the AI react when the sneaky player makes a mistake? How much effort would they put into hunting him down?

Crysis has a very good implementation of stealth -- you can be sneaky even without the cloak suit mode by sticking to vegetation, although I'm not sure if lighting has an effect or not. Also the way the AI behaves when it has spotted you, loses track and continues to search is pretty good, though not perfect. Certainly much better than Oblivion's stealth system, which was just laughably bad. And of course there are the Thief and Splinter Cell games which were all about stealth. Interestingly, both the Thief and Splinter Cell series use Unreal tech, so MO's Unreal Engine 3 should have at least the groundwork needed to make an AI good enough to behave like a human player would when it comes to spotting and reacting to stealthy players.

Finally, back to the topic about hardware requirements -- by the time this game is released, I believe that the average system of the target audience will be capable of playing UE3-based games with high to maximum settings with ease. I think it would very reasonable, and great for gameplay, to require that fully dynamic lighting be always on. Already you can buy a <$150 video card that will run Unreal Tournament 3 at max settings with ease.

[Zombie]

The problem with stealth, hiding in grass with camouflage, etc is so many players can find ways to work around it, its easy to delete or corrupt a few driver files and make your games look altered, enabling you to see anyone with a cloak or invisibility, or through walls etc, but the worst part is, in games such as crysis, (i know its not an mmorpg) but people turn their graphics settings all the way down, and can see an invisible guy in the grass as easy as pie, while I'm sitting there cloaked with ultra high settings ready to get easily slain, giving people with shittier cheaper PC's an advantage

and why people would even play a game they can only play at lowest graphics settings is beyond me