140, MILLION combinations.

[Shivalyn]

Yes, that's what I meant. I was talking purely about swords/axes/halberds/glaives where the balde is made out of wood. Sorry for not specifying there!

I'd imagine a weapon with a blade made out of wood would be either A) an ineffective club, B) used for practice purposes/training, or C) mock battles (plays, skits?).

[Kurtmo]

Originally Posted by Booga

Naysayers?
Good grief is no body else allowed to express an opinion? I thought that's what discussion was all about.

I have to agree with Lagoon's post, perhaps that would have been a better way to approach this topic.

I was talking about people who come in here and say "140 million isn't alot. I can't believe you are all revved up about it."

Not people who are trying to make good points. Although I think it is hard to make good arguments against the proposed system, since only the devs know the finer details...

[Unahim]

Originally Posted by Shivalyn

I'd imagine a weapon with a blade made out of wood would be either A) an ineffective club, B) used for practice purposes/training, or C) mock battles (plays, skits?).

Yes, that's what Mats already said, but I was talking about wooden weapons being used against each other.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Unahim

So, basically, if two people were fighting each other using bladed weapons made completely out of wood, I think neither of them would have an absolute advantage over the other no matter what kind of wood they'd use, since if one guy was using heavier wood and the other guy was using lighter wood, they'd both have advantages and disadvantages.

Originally Posted by ZBlackmore

Sounds more then awesome, but i sure hope you guys don't just balance everything to 100% and leave space for materials that are actualy better then others at what they do

There is of course a ladder-like structure somewhere in this system. But we're on dangerous grounds here, as it's very far from the "ladder/level"-system in most other MMO's due to the nature of the game. Let me explain:

Iron (Pig Iron) vs Steel is an example of where one material of the same category is much better in all areas, unless you count availability/price, and difficulty level when crafting.

In a "normal" casual MMO, where you never loose your items, this would mean Pig Iron is worthless during around 98% (or more) of your total playing time. It would be just another step in the level ladder, meaning you either are "beneath" using Iron (lvl 1-20), you are "currently" using Iron (lvl 21-25), or you are "above" using Iron (lvl 26-80+).

However, in MO there are no levels and you lose all weapons when you die, meaning you will sometimes need to use Iron no matter how long you have played the game, as that is the best currently available material in that specific situation. (You have no money, the available local blacksmiths are noobs etc). Likewise, if two materials are essentially the same but one has 5% more durability than the other (meaning it's simply a better material), but the time and money needed for crafting the better material into a blade is *2, you still won't see many of those weapons.

Also, it's very possible that in the fighting-with-only-wooden-blades-situation one "wood-material" would actually be of supreme quality because of it's durability and hardness/sharpness/damage. Yes, the wielder of the lighter wood would be faster, but not so much it would actually compensate for the low damage (as the speed range that goes from very light materials to very heavy is a bit different than the damage range). The simple reason behind this is that the main "purpose" of wood isn't for it to be used for blades. However, if you try to craft bows instead, there is a huge difference between the different qualities, and again it would be hard to decide what material is "the best".

Last but not least, there are indeed a few legendary materials that puts all other materials in the shade. But as they are so exceptionally rare we haven't even counted them in the PP equation. And no-one should count on ever attaining one of them either. You may call me on this and say "you're naive, because eventually some guilds will have accumulated enough to use them on a daily basis anyway, it's just the way the grind in MMO works". But I'm not referring to the common/special/rare materials that you can "grind" here, I'm talking about those who are limited/regulated by unique events.

A few questions if i may, feel free to ignore some/all :P

can u tell us about how wiil armor crafting be? I find it hard to imagine a shape and materials choice for different parts in the armor.

Why is that?

This is, like many other things, undergoing a lot of testing at the moment, so please don't take this as a promise. I'll let you in on what we are testing now though:

1. There are different "armor-styles", most of them culturally connected (Tindremic Plate Armor, to give an example). They each represent a certain workflow/design-approach for making an armor (scales/plates/lamellar, placement of gousettes, rivets, straps etc). A rough estimate on the number of available designs at release are around 10, but this is not fully tested yet.
2. Most "armor-styles" consist of around 10 equipment pieces (Helmet, Greaves etc). Some of these pieces are linked in some armor-designs (meaning you cannot craft a single arm in some hauberks, for instance).
3. When you make an armor piece, you choose from one of the 10 designs (you have to have the corresponding skills and recipe/design for it)
4. Most pieces have a "backing/support material", where any "Soft" Material can be used (Leathers, Skins, Wools) etc. Each piece has an individual minimum and maximum limit on how much Material may be used for the backing/support material.
5. All pieces have a "main material". Depending on the design, you may choose a Material from the "Soft", "Medium" or "Hard" Material Categories. For instance Tindremic Scale Armor is a heavy armor design, so you may choose a material from either the "Hard" or the "Medium" Material Categories. Each piece has an individual minimum and maximum limit on how much Material may be used for the main material.

A very rough estimate is that you will be able to create around 20.000 different "pieces" for each equipment slot. (Only 10 different shapes, but a lot of material combinations). Or 20.000 "complete armors", if you like. You are free to combine pieces in which way you like though, so following this example, with about 10 equipment slots, you will have 20.000^10 different armor setups to choose from (stat-wise). Deciding how much of each resource you use is not taken into account. Also, this number doesn't take skills into account.

If we're talking visual differences, only the shape and main material is what is seen (mesh and texture). Again, a rough estimate will give you around 150 visually different pieces for each equipment slot, or 150^10 ( 5.766.503.906.250.000.000.000) visually different setups. (Not taking bare body parts into account).

And finally, yes, of course many combinations will be utterly useless, other will look completely ridiculous (combining silk gloves with iron vambraces and wooden pauldrons, for instance). And many of them will look kinda the same.

Will we see reciepes needed to learn different shapes/to use materials or will they automaticaly open up as we get our skills up?

I guess I answered that in part above. Also, "shape knowledge" (blade smithing) and "material knowledge" (Iron-based crafting) are separated. But more on crafting later.

Will some weapon heads be restricted to some handle heads? I mean if i put a giant maceball on a long, thin, light stick (that might be used for a spear or so) the handle should just break after a swing or two...

Yes, there will be restrictions (those have been taken into account in the PP calculation, by the way). You cannot fit a pole-axe-head directly onto a one-hand-sword-handle, for instance, as the axe-head needs some kind of shaft for attachment. You may still put it on a very short handle though. Also, your actual example will work, but just like you say, it will brake very soon because of the low durability of the shaft.

Is there a god?

MO has many gods.

[Branwulf]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

MO has many gods.

Is one of them Mats Persson?

On the subject, thanks for the post, very informative.

[Kaznafein]

O man can't wait to start crafting. thanks for the info

[rapier17]

The more I read this thread, the more I feel like being the village blacksmith than an axe-wielding Kallard Jarl! (I might actually have to make use of the Deva system to its full then :P).

Thanks for the information Mats

[Resin]

To what degree will we need to invest our skills up to be able to know how effective or ineffective a weapon is? Finding a new material will the average player know it to be a 'soft material'? If you kill a mob will the collecting/skinning/butchering for materials be skill based as well?

What I'm trying to get at is will players who are dedicated or at least casual crafters have an edge on pure fighter builds, or will there really be any need for a 'pure fighter build'?

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Laotzu

The game comes out in July as stated by the PPt

?
What PPt are you watching?

, and then reconfirmed by posts from Mat that say the date is set in stone due to financial issues. ("Our studio doesn't run on welfare.")

?
Please link to the post where I say the launch date is set in stone. Not only is this your own personal deduction from a vague quote, I believe it is also partly taken out of context from a post essentially dealing with a different subject. I would really appreciate if you avoided doing this in the future.

[ZBlackmore]

Yup that' exactly what i thought about the ladder idea, was just abit worried after reading "no material is better then another, they're all just made for different stats" one too many times...

Wow the armor thing sounds complicated, gonna read it again tommorow (sober).

Someone really gotta take all that great info scattered around the forums and put it into one thread or something like that.


Thanks alot for adding +10 to my fanboi value once again

[Bushie]

Me Likey!!!!!

[Kurtmo]

God I hope you guys can get that to work, Mats. It sounds not only badass but...realistic. Armor backing. Hard, medium, soft types. Individual pieces from one set not always fitting pieces from another set. I love it! I hope it works like you want it to.

I noticed that the PPT gave a number like 142 million and some change. The math, if you don't take out combos that don't work would work out to be 144 million. It is good to know that you guys thought of combos that won't work before putting the number up.

[emielovic]

mats, how a wonderfull thread is this, it actually makes me look forward to crafting! (never felt that way before)

but how will this work with staves? I ' m more like a magic type, and i guess staves will give mages some kind of advantage, or do you work with another system with mages?
so I'm wondering, do you need some kind of magic item for staves, like this?

[November]

A question about unique appearance: Will there be possible to make some kind of unique masterpiece as, for example, a badass scythe with a handle made of someone's spine?

[Shivalyn]

A question about unique appearance: Will there be possible to make some kind of unique masterpiece as, for example, a badass scythe with a handle made of someone's spine?

O.O

That would be bad ass! Fuse the bone together with bits of metal inbetween the vertebrae. Unfortunately bone is quite brittle but eh, I'd be willing to sacrifice realism in this case.

And for the spinous processes, put a metal 'coat' over them so that you can sharpen the edges for a wicked club.


I need new pants


Edit: Ok a monkey with Photoshop could do better than me, but I had to give it a shot. Yes it's a halberd, not a scythe, but there's no good scythe pictures that I could find. Also I wasn't quite sure how you hold a halberd exactly so only one hand grip lol.

[ZBlackmore]

Awesome shivalin. And who needs another grip? I wanna duel wield those!

[Booga]

Originally Posted by Kurtmo

I was talking about people who come in here and say "140 million isn't alot. I can't believe you are all revved up about it."

Not people who are trying to make good points. Although I think it is hard to make good arguments against the proposed system, since only the devs know the finer details...

LOL hardly revved up.

Thanks for the info Mats, very interesting indeed.

Originally Posted by Mats

combining silk gloves with iron vambraces and wooden pauldrons, for instance

Sounds good to me

P.S. thanks for the very big number, you know how much I love them :P

[zantax]

Sorry could you tell me where to find that Power point presentation I would like to watch it?

[Mr Winter]

It's in the most recent update, towards the bottom.

[opuri]

Originally Posted by Nox Vortem

Stop shatting your pants, this will boil down to something like this:

Bone Blade VS Diamond Blade -> Diamond wins
Wooden Handle VS Steel Handle -> Steel wins

Thus, best combo = Diamond Blade + Steel Handle.

The total combination are 140 mil.
But how many of those are actually useful and worthy? I don't know but it's a lot less than that 140 mil.

what about not all players being able to afford a diamond sword? ;P

[Daxyl]

Holy shit.

[Daxyl]

Originally Posted by opuri

what about not all players being able to afford a diamond sword? ;P

Not to mention there may very well be material harder than diamond in this game.

I dont know I could see bones from a "rare mob" being crafted into a weapon and being superior to a diamond-edge sword.

[Travie]

Originally Posted by Murata

Oh My God!

yup. bout sums it up

[Mouseff]

Nice shit this will be an epic Crafting system...

[Faranox]

Originally Posted by Nox Vortem

Stop shatting your pants, this will boil down to something like this:

Bone Blade VS Diamond Blade -> Diamond wins
Wooden Handle VS Steel Handle -> Steel wins

Thus, best combo = Diamond Blade + Steel Handle.

Not necessarily. An example: two swords. One is made of steel, the other of iron. A steel blade will hold a sharper edge, but is easier to break. An iron blade can take a lot of abuse, but can't hold such an edge. I assume each material will have various trade-offs that will have to be taken into consideration.

[Murata]

Originally Posted by Travie

yup. bout sums it up

I thought so.

[Shivalyn]

Not necessarily. An example: two swords. One is made of steel, the other of iron. A steel blade will hold a sharper edge, but is easier to break. An iron blade can take a lot of abuse, but can't hold such an edge. I assume each material will have various trade-offs that will have to be taken into consideration.

Properly made steel is much stronger than iron though.

[ZBlackmore]

Originally Posted by Faranox

Not necessarily. An example: two swords. One is made of steel, the other of iron. A steel blade will hold a sharper edge, but is easier to break. An iron blade can take a lot of abuse, but can't hold such an edge. I assume each material will have various trade-offs that will have to be taken into consideration.

Read more recent dev posts. Mats WILL be different, but there will also be a ladder of what's better and what's worse in the same goal...

[Akai]

Originally Posted by ZBlackmore

Read more recent dev posts. Mats WILL be different, but there will also be a ladder of what's better and what's worse in the same goal...

True, but you also have to factor in that the iron may be the preferable sword, simply because you just got killed and looted and need to get another weapon fast and for cheap.

What is useful/better is quite dependent on the circumstances/how you play, which imo is a good thing.

I guess even thinking about weapon durability, if you have a playstyle in which you dodge attacks rather than block them, a sword with a high durability may not be necessary for you, and you can go for the better damaging but more brittle swords.

[Mouseff]

what about not using a sword but a bow?

[Zenir]

Originally Posted by Akai

I guess even thinking about weapon durability, if you have a playstyle in which you dodge attacks rather than block them, a sword with a high durability may not be necessary for you, and you can go for the better damaging but more brittle swords.

If i understood it right the item also uses durability when you hit with it. So it always be a hard choice what is better...


I wonder how people should master the really rare materials because they don't have many tries if they are limited.. could it be when using a rare awesome material you need up having a crappy weapon because you got no experience with the material?

[Akai]

Originally Posted by Zenir

If i understood it right the item also uses durability when you hit with it. So it always be a hard choice what is better...

Ahh yeah I completely forgot about that ><

Originally Posted by Zenir

I wonder how people should master the really rare materials because they don't have many tries if they are limited.. could it be when using a rare awesome material you need up having a crappy weapon because you got no experience with the material?

Maybe you will be able to learn how to craft the rarest materials somewhat by reading a book?

[Mouseff]

I think the beginnins of a blacksmith with a rare material will of course be hard and produce realtive shit but still this should be better than average cuz of the rare material. Steel is better than wood even if you dont know how to use it eh?

[VerbalTachi]

If there is enchanting in MO, I hope you are able to enchant the different parts of weapons, armors, etc. (ie. enchant the base, blade, grip, etc.)

[Torgrim]

Originally Posted by VerbalTachi

If there is enchanting in MO, I hope you are able to enchant the different parts of weapons, armors, etc. (ie. enchant the base, blade, grip, etc.)

Why?

Imean it's alittle to much and frankly rather pointless to enchant all this areas.

[Unahim]

Originally Posted by Akai

Ahh yeah I completely forgot about that ><

Doesn't matter though, both people who block and people who dodge both need to take that into account, but people who dodge will still need less durability on their swords.

Originally Posted by Mouseff

what about not using a sword but a bow?

Bows have a different crafting process(go look at the archery thread in answered questions), therefor it is very, very likely they're not included in the 140+ million number since that's based on only one crafting process, therefor this thread isn't about them ^^

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Unahim

Bows have a different crafting process(go look at the archery thread in answered questions), therefor it is very, very likely they're not included in the 140+ million number since that's based on only one crafting process, therefor this thread isn't about them ^^

Thank you, that's right.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Booga

P.S. thanks for the very big number, you know how much I love them :P

Ok,
20.000^10 equals:
10 240 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
or 10 tredecillion 240 duodecillion combinations

[Unahim]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Ok,
20.000^10 equals:
10 240 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
or 10 tredecillion 240 duodecillion combinations

And what exactly -is- this number then?

[Kamisama]

Originally Posted by Unahim

And what exactly -is- this number then?

number of atoms in the universe ?