MO Forum Moderation Critique

[Lachrymose]

i've heard far too many complaints about the moderation on the forums.. many were just whines coming from trolls or those who neglected to read the forum rules, but i feel a concerning number of those complaints were legitimate, so i'd like to open the topic for discussion... how do you feel about the current moderation of our forums?

in order to keep this thread from getting locked, please refrain from flaming any moderators. in fact, to be safe.. just don't mention any specific moderators at all, but moderation as a whole, and when you do... do it in a civil manner. if you can't be civil, just cast your vote and be on your way. i'd like to keep this thread from getting locked/deleted, and hopefully anyone that is strongly opinionated about this topic feels the same way.

should this thread be locked without a clear violation of the rules by any poster, it would only serve as proof that the forums are overmoderated to the point that we can't even have a constructively critical discussion of the moderation of our own forums.

so if you think the forums are overmoderated, undermoderated, home to favoritism or double standards, this is a chance to make those thoughts known. you are free to discuss your bans/infractions/deletions, as there is nothing in the rules (if you aren't familiar with them, please read them before posting) that says you can't make that information public, but please, don't whine about any acts of moderation against you... remember, the acts of a moderator are final.

poll inc.

[Slash Redhand]

I just love the moderation.
They punish all these damn trolls that ruin our great community.

Keep up the good work Syche!



EDIT: ok, let's be serious now, I vote the first one.

[Kamisama]

Moderation is fine, they close/merge duplicated thread, they ban the trolls, etc. Just as what a moderator should do. It helps to have a sound community that discuss instead of flaming >_>

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Slash Redhand

I just love the moderation.
They punish all these damn trolls that ruin our great community.



Keep up the good work Syche!

sarcasm will not be tolerated in this thread.

[Traceur]

well, is it ok to link in specific examples where i think locking the thread was wrong? it's sort of breaks your "no specific moderator" rule but i really don't want to go around the bush with generalizations of "what sort of moderating mistakes" and stuff like that.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Traceur

well, is it ok to link in specific examples where i think locking the thread was wrong? it's sort of breaks your "no specific moderator" rule but i really don't want to go around the bush with generalizations of "what sort of moderating mistakes" and stuff like that.

well, so long as you don't flame or insult any of the moderators, i see nothing wrong with it. as far as i can tell from reading the forum rules, discussing an act of moderation is fine, so long as it doesn't violate this rule:

What has been done, is done. If a post has been deleted, it will not be brought back. If a user has been banned, the ban will not be lifted. The act of a moderator or admin is final.

basically... don't say "this isn't fair. fix it!" and you should be fine. saying "i feel this was unjust, here's why..." doesn't seem to be in any way a violation of the rules.

[LuckySeven]

I think the moderators are doing a fine job.

[Slash Redhand]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

sarcasm will not be tolerated in this thread.

[adrala]

I think that you can not devide the posts in a forum in black and white only. Meaning thatt here are always cases where though the post may not violate any rules, still be inapropriate.
For example I can still remember that psot about peeing in the game and so on. It didnt violate any forum rules but still it was not adding noting to the game discussion.
I think each moderator should have some room in order to make personal valoration of the post and if it may contribite to the communite or no.
Also we all msut have in mind that these are privetely run forums and we are just guests. We have no right to demand anything. We have the freedom to leave if we dont like it.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by adrala

Also we all msut have in mind that these are privetely run forums and we are just guests. We have no right to demand anything. We have the freedom to leave if we dont like it.

yes, but as members of the community, we're certainly allowed to voice our concerns regarding the forum's moderation. the forum community cannot thrive if its members are stifled by overmoderation, nor will it last long if it's degraded by undermoderation. if either of those is the case, we need to know which, and to what degree so that the problem can be remedied and the overall community can benefit from it... hence, the purpose of the thread.

[Unkillable]

"The forum moderation is juuust right"

I'm yet to see a form of moderation which I can class as undermoderation or overmoderation, and yes I am an active member on these forums.

[StJudas]

Great poll , 62.800 members vs 7 moderators !

-StJudas

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by StJudas

Great poll , 62.800 members vs 7 moderators !

-StJudas

i sense a bit of sarcasm here...

tell me, StJudas, is the moderation meant to benefit the community's moderators, or is it meant to benefit the community as a whole? if you honestly think it's meant for the moderators' own benefit, then by all means, you have a right to complain about imbalance.. if you think the moderation is meant to ensure that the community flourishes, and that the majority of the community (note: you just pointed out who that majority is) can benefit positively from interacting within the community, then i'm not sure where you're going with this.

[Jhael]

Only really had 1 beef so far. A thread being locked for no apparent reason.

The other thing is the occasional F-word returning a warning. I find it kind of as a useless attempt to remove such language. Find someone who doesn't know the word or know what it means and you can justify so anally trying to avoid it. Yes, I understand those who fill their posts with such language should be warned. But 1 per a long post does not seem inadequate enough to warn/punish.

Yes, if it's direction at a person "you f-" or such it should be pretty automatic. But using it to illustrate opinion "f- no" or "f- yes" or "f-ing useless" should be something the moderators could tolerate as I'm sure majority of the rest certainly would.

So in my opinion slightly overmoderated.

[Traceur]

case 0: explained through the links in the last line of my signiture.

case 1: a moderator closed it because "the dev's already released their decision". IMO everything about the game is and should be opened for discussion, not only "to try to change the dev's opinions", but the fact is such discussions outline the concerns of those who disagree, & flashout potential reprucssions that might need to be dealt with and brainstorms solutions and alternative accomidations to those concerned, or at the very least least brings new players into the sendbox community by lightening up their concerns.

case 2: i'm no tech, but i'm sure some people know enough about UE3 engine map file sizes combined with our info about MO's first released land size to have helped him if that discussion was allowed to continue.

case 3: the mod closed it for saying the OP is wrong while the moderator was wrong himself - yes there was such a "leak" starvault is a listed company and anyone going into their stock profolio can find there schedual.

case 4: while everyone who read anything i said will know i disagree with the OP, the fact is the DH topic is one with a huge spectrum of sub-topics & aspects and threads focusing on specific aspect aren't spam, they are actually needed for us to have cleaner and more capable discussions.

case 5: just like the case above, this is a specific sub-topic of a wide-range spectrum topic (magic). just like we can have threads about magic GUI and threads about magic's role and threads about magic's challange curve and threads about specific schools of magic, we can have a thread about non-ranged magic.

case 6: i have really nothing to say - absolutely no good reason for locking that thread.

case 7: again a specific aspect of another thread is not the same as the other thread.

7 sins off the tip of my head

[StJudas]

Sorry no , im just stating facts. We are only 7 moderators , thats around 10 k members vs 1 mod atm and we are human , we do mistakes and so forth. We handle the forum with the tools given to us, and we do not only moderate for the users such as you Lachrymose but also for the Stock Owners that dont want to be layed off from work because their internet got killed by a picture of a decapetation , a child molester and his victim or any other really discusting picture thats been posted on the forums. Yea you see and hear alot of the 'whiners' on irc , but most have trolled the forums and most have resented getting an infraction or a warning. Some have managed to use the forums as they are ment to be used , a tool for information and constructive writing. Some have not, those are either banned or still getting up their infractions.

I as a Lead Moderator back my 'team' mates up 100% in their moderation because they are mature , they have families and good values in life and we also complement eachoter when we have discussions over the more harsher punishments. Some like me are more for a harder tone, some are lighter but we mostly find a middleway and discuss it through.

-StJudas

[Wufiavelli]

7 moderators for 62k people is very few. Could even in an odd way contribute to over moderating due workload. Adding more moderators might give the mods more breathing room to give threads a greater look and be more fair and even handed.

[StJudas]

Originally Posted by Wufiavelli

7 moderators for 62k people is very few. Could even in an odd way contribute to over moderating due workload. Adding more moderators might give the mods more breathing room to give threads a greater look and be more fair and even handed.

Im actually contemplating that atm.

-StJudas

[StJudas]

I made the poll sticky, so more can give their input aswell.

-StJudas

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by StJudas

Sorry no , im just stating facts. We are only 7 moderators , thats around 10 k members vs 1 mod atm and we are human , we do mistakes and so forth. We handle the forum with the tools given to us, and we do not only moderate for the users such as you Lachrymose but also for the Stock Owners that dont want to be layed off from work because their internet got killed by a picture of a decapetation , a child molester and his victim or any other really discusting picture thats been posted on the forums.

your trying to reframe the critique to be about things they aren't - no case about such examples has being put fourth - the cases we are bringing are when moding has harmed the spirit of the community & quality of discussion.

and syche - in irc you kicked me for bringing my campaign to get people who disagree with your moderating out into the open. it might have being offensive for you - but it was civilized, legitimate and more-so: honest. i explained openly what wrongs i think you've done and when you ignored them i asked people to express it through the tools provided by the forums if they agree, and your retort was to abuse your moderating power. i generally like you as a person to the extent i know from irc, but i come to the conclusion you can not handle community power in a healthy manner, and should not have power. there are people i like who can't be cops - me included - but you are one of them, except unlike them you chose to role of a cop anyway.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Jhael

The other thing is the occasional F-word returning a warning. I find it kind of as a useless attempt to remove such language. Find someone who doesn't know the word or know what it means and you can justify so anally trying to avoid it. Yes, I understand those who fill their posts with such language should be warned. But 1 per a long post does not seem inadequate enough to warn/punish.

Yes, if it's direction at a person "you f-" or such it should be pretty automatic. But using it to illustrate opinion "f- no" or "f- yes" or "f-ing useless" should be something the moderators could tolerate as I'm sure majority of the rest certainly would.

wholeheartedly agree. i'd also like to point out that when you log into the mortalonline.com website, you're asked to verify your age. to me that's a clear indication that these are meant to be adult forums, and anyone here who isn't an adult probably shouldn't be here.

if profanity is directed towards someone, then i agree that it should be dealt with (if the "victim" feels it needs be), as that constitutes verbal harassment which should not be tolerated. if the profanity is not directed at anyone, however, there is no reason it needs to be removed any more than it would need to be removed from an R rated movie.

[StJudas]

I would like to have shown you the proof of those pictures but then i must open those threads for public display wich i wont do , Traceur.

Abusive language is against the rules , if you havent read it , then perhaps its time to do so.

-StJudas

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by StJudas

I would like to have shown you the proof of those pictures but then i must open those threads for public display wich i wont do , Traceur.

Abusive language is against the rules , if you havent read it , then perhaps its time to do so.

-StJudas

abusive language is only abusive if there is a victim of that abuse. if it is directed at no one, then it should simply be called "profanity." as far as i can tell, using profanity is currently not against the rules unless directed towards someone.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by StJudas

I would like to have shown you the proof of those pictures but then i must open those threads for public display wich i wont do , Traceur.

your missing the point: it's not that we accuse the moderators you for not doing the job when needed, we accuse to doing their job when either unneeded or down right harmful.

Originally Posted by StJudas

Abusive language is against the rules , if you havent read it , then perhaps its time to do so.

so when it's applied to ow great you, you've expanded the term "abusive language" to include criticism of one's role in the community? wow, what a moral sense. when i was a moderator in a community (a job i quite honestly hated) i allowed someone to be bluntly racist against me just because i didn't think it was right to use my moderating power to defend myself, and in comparison you redefine terms like "abusive language" so that they'll legitimize your own trollish power abuse? i'm sorry but that's wrong, very very wrong.

[xenageo]

I voted moderated Just right. My reasoning is that overmoderation is good. For a lot of regulars this can become a deterrent, but as the game grows in popularity the influx of new members and trolls to the community will rapidly grow.

While it might be less enjoyable or sometimes even offensive, I find the heavy hand of moderation both organized and necessary to keeping this community so welcoming. I would point to so many other terrible MMO communities as an example as to why I support strict moderation.

[Spiderspy]

I think all moderators have done a fine jobb from the begining and made our MO-forum to what is today a nice, clean, serius but still funny and friendly forum wich I havnt seen done any better so fare .

[LightsabeR]

I feel that they are slightly over moderated. The MO website is 18+ and people should expect the forums to be the same.

[Slann]

I like how is moderated. I dont see insults, and much threads that dont have to stay are quickly closed. Its truely difficult see short post about "gtfo" or "go to wow". I like how is moderated MO, yeah.

[Slash Redhand]

Originally Posted by StJudas

Sorry no , im just stating facts. We are only 7 moderators , thats around 10 k members vs 1 mod atm and we are human , we do mistakes and so forth. We handle the forum with the tools given to us, and we do not only moderate for the users such as you Lachrymose but also for the Stock Owners that dont want to be layed off from work because their internet got killed by a picture of a decapetation , a child molester and his victim or any other really discusting picture thats been posted on the forums. Yea you see and hear alot of the 'whiners' on irc , but most have trolled the forums and most have resented getting an infraction or a warning. Some have managed to use the forums as they are ment to be used , a tool for information and constructive writing. Some have not, those are either banned or still getting up their infractions.

I as a Lead Moderator back my 'team' mates up 100% in their moderation because they are mature , they have families and good values in life and we also complement eachoter when we have discussions over the more harsher punishments. Some like me are more for a harder tone, some are lighter but we mostly find a middleway and discuss it through.

-StJudas

The problem is that you guys OVER-react. What you said there, yes I agree, a children molester, a decapitation being posted in public forums, that's really a crime, but look at me, I am like one step before getting permabanned from both the forums and the irc and I have done nothing more then some "trash talk" or how ever you want to call it.

It's a 18+ envinroment, you can expect some swearing and some drama.

Hell, drama is what happens right now.

[Balkin]

I hate to say it but I think the Forum Moderation is just right, way to many times have I seen forums explode with people doing just about what ever they want with little regard for the rest of the forum users, it makes for a very unhealthy community.

As with anything I am sure there are examples of times when the mods got it wrong but I am sure they get right much more often....

[Bigg]

Originally Posted by Slash Redhand

The problem is that you guys OVER-react. What you said there, yes I agree, a children molester, a decapitation being posted in public forums, that's really a crime, but look at me, I am like one step before getting permabanned from both the forums and the irc and I have done nothing more then some "trash talk" or how ever you want to call it.

It's a 18+ envinroment, you can expect some swearing and some drama.

Hell, drama is what happens right now.

If you can't self moderate your profanity or direct insults then I am happy that there are people who will do it for you. Those two things only lead to flame wars.

Drama isnt a bad thing as long as it stays as a intelligent discussion. If no moderation is performed it turns into slandering and personal attacks on everyone. That might be ok in Forumfall but I am relieved its the way it is here.

[Slash Redhand]

Originally Posted by Bigg

If you can't self moderate your profanity or direct insults then I am happy that there are people who will do it for you. Those two things only lead to flame wars.

Drama isnt a bad thing as long as it stays as a intelligent discussion. If no moderation is performed it turns into slandering and personal attacks on everyone. That might be ok in Forumfall but I am relieved its the way it is here.

You're not the one to say if I can moderate myself or not.


Be sure that I am moderating my self right now, otherwise this post would have been full of bad stuff.

Be sure about it.

[Shinzon]

Over the course of a year, I have never had a run-in with a moderator that I would call unfair or unjust, sure the reaction might be considered "Overkill" by some on the part of the moderators, but they do hard work and they do it for us. At the end of the day the moderators have done an excellent job keeping MO from degenerating into a spam fest where threads are repeated and the old threads are forgotten.

In that respect, the moderators did an exemplary job, they have tried to satisfy the older members by locking up "Duplicate" threads and pointing new members to them, so that they can read what has been said before, and often this is their questions or concern exactly.

Sure some might consider "Over Moderation" some sort of hanus crime or something of the sort, I do not. I see it as a necessary evil, and in all respects I would rather have moderation on MO that's just a little bit too tight, than have the damned thing degenrate into a spamfest anarchy shout match.

[Bigg]

Originally Posted by Slash Redhand

You're not the one to say if I can moderate myself or not.

Sorry, I assumed by the number of infractions you have that you could not.

[Lachrymose]

it seems this thread has caused quite a bit of trouble, which is not what i originally intended.. not only in here, but it cause a bit of an uproar in irc. maybe another day we can continue the discussion, but for now i think the mods have heard several differing opinions on the matter, and i hope they will take those into consideration in the future. even though i don't entirely agree with the moderation methods, the mods do work hard to make the community better and they do what they think is right (whether or not we agree), and we shouldn't forget that.

i'd like to request that a moderator lock the thread please.

[Slash Redhand]

Some people referred personally to others, they shouldn't.

These people are the ones that ruin such a discussion.

[StJudas]

Locked , and removed from sticky by the OP's Choise.

Yes , we will run a similar poll in the future.

-StJudas