More Realistic Combat Please

[Etwynn]

I think it goes without saying that any type of next-gen, sophisticated combat system will have directional attacks (mouse/crosshairs type aiming). Given that, I have some suggestions for implementing it realistically.

I'd like to see combat focused more around making a few well-placed hits where most of the attacks that occur are either blocked, parried, or deflected by armor. The objective of combat should be to defend yourself against your opponent's blows while your opponent does the same. Attacking should leave yourself open and fights should almost always favor the side with the great number, because it's harder to defend against multiple opponents at the same time. I'd like to see ACTIVE blocking, parrying, and dodging, defensive spell-ing, etc so defending yourself rather than doing "dps" is the focus of combat.

• Active parrying could be achieve most intuitively by having two concurrent melee attacks (occurring in roughly the same space on the plane between opponents) clash, both doing zero damage.
• Active blocking would involve moving your shield forward to meet your attacks (even if this means pressing a single button to block a concurrent incoming attack on your shield side--ie either left or right), rather than having it hang limp at your side (You could leave your shield limp at your side, and it would defend you if an opponent is dumb enough to attack your shield)
• Active dodging should be more than just moving your character around. Moving your entire body takes too long to dodge any kind of serious attack. Implement /dodgeleft /dodgeright and jump (for low-aimed attacks) and make these much faster means of avoiding attacks than strafing. These options wouldn't change your footing, rather they would just temporarily shift your character out of the way (by leaning or jumping).
• Armor would function passively in that where a character is unprotected he is most vulnerable. If you're wearing chest protection, and you get hit in the chest the "wound" should not go as deep (or pierce the skin at all, if your armor is thick enough)
• Make armor type matter: Getting hit where you're wearing plate armor would do no damage, but wearing plate would slow your attacks so that light armor types are faster and therefore more able to block, parry, and dodge attacks. 1v1 fights should favor light and medium armor wearers because they are faster and can still parry or dodge any incoming attacks. But if you're going 1v2 or 1v3, you better be wearing plate and a shield because, you're going to get flanked and attacked from behind so you better have some mitigation.
• Make armor type matter 2.0: Plate armor DOES NOT mitigate piercing as well as chain or even leather armor. Please get this right. On the other hand, slashing damage should do no damage to body parts covered in plate or chainmail. Attacking at exposed areas like joints should be central.
• Traditionally, abilities with cooldowns (other than the GBC) are based on when you last did that specific attack. Why can I only kick every 8 seconds? That makes no sense. Cooldowns should be based on how long it takes you to return to your stance after making a move. Some attacks might take longer for you to return to a "ready" position but no attacks should be locked out because "you cannot do that again yet"
• Dual wielding should mean TWICE the number of attacks in any given time. At the least have attacks alternate hands with quicker time to return to "ready" position. Better, yet:
• Allow us to do more than one thing at once, with consequence. I can slask and kick at once, but it will put me off balance/leave me open. I can attack with both my weapons at onced, but my accuracy is reduced and it leaves me open.

That's all I got right now. Anyone else have suggestions?

[Shinzon]

Very well written, coherent; and I agree with everything you said there...

[SkirmCard]

Of course it's hard to get everything perfect on a suggestion, but if it's anything like that I would be extremely happy.

With this example melee combat could become very complicated using some pretty extravagant keystrokes , but isn't that what we want? Instead of who has the uber equipment, it'll be who has the best timing and who can read the other player better. Hence as the developers have said, making this a skill based game (including player skill).

A beginner player could just start off with different types of attacks, whether it's trying slashes in different directions or piercing at different heights, then they could start working on defensive and combination skills as they progress. What I like about that idea is that it's not just your character who has become a better fighter, but the actual player who is becoming a better fighter.

Am I way off with this train of thought?

[Lina]

WOW Thats sure is an awsome post. If only one of those things were in the game i would be happy

[Welwordion]

Hmm I like your spirit of active defense however there is some stuff I disagree on,first dodge left and right sounds good however I only want if it does not complicate the controls to much, otherwise a fast strafe with a short cooldown(rebalancing) would be sufficient.
Armor types can react to damage types like you said, but they do not have to
only because in reality its that way, if plate armor has a piercing weakness give a game and not a reality reason.
Although a doubling of attack speed for dual wield is nice like armor its not a necessity, personally I would prefer something similar to your ready position proposal, after attacks arms have either to get into a ready position or just gain distance(in case there is more than one position they can change to after attack), so you could ready one arm while the other attacks and such get more attacks or you could ready and attack with both your arms at the same time aiming at two target zones and making it hard to defend, or you you use one arm for attack and let one arm be ready to parry(which the other arm could not do while returning).
Oh and maybe there should be some disadvantages or reduction of possibie movements, when people fight with stuff in both their hands compared to only in one hand, so one handed fencing style fighting without shield is still a viable option.

Oh and most important do not make the game to fast when you have many options, not everyone is a fucking mouse and keyboard houdini, what use is it if i have all these options when I can not use them in reality cause combat is just to fast to react.

[Etwynn]

I really just hope there are hitboxes for each limb (and preferably a separate hitbox for joints). I'd like to see hp replaced with wounds on different body parts of differing severity/impact (runspeed for legs, arms reduce attack speed/damage, arteries and severe blows to head and heart = death). Been waiting for a system like this in an MMO for a long time. Darkfall only has 1 hitbox per character /cry

[Dawonos]

I would love to get realistic hitboxes but could that be also too complicated for fights? Let say you could hit legs while crouching, how long it would take to do that? Enough time for react and evade it?
Also same goes for ranged combat, does arrows have a travel time? Can you dodge those or deflect with shield?

Haven't read all combat related topics so not sure if there is answers already...

[James Olson]

In all fairness, these are good ideas. Though pure pragmatism urges me against them. To chime in with Welwordion, systems like this can become complicated fast, for the player and for the servers. This project is ambitious enough as is.

Though, as for realism on the graphical side, I think some great things can be done with the UT engine in the context of combat. Arrows sticking out of sheilds/limbs. Frost/burn marks on armor. Realistic looking wear and tear on armor/weapons. Things of that sort.

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Very well written, coherent; and I agree with everything you said there...

OK. So I guess if Shinzon does, I don't need to read the wall of text then.

I agree too.




Hmm, I think I'll read it anyway.

EDIT: OK, I've read it :

I agree that armor types should matter, but I disagree with the details you've given.
One example:
As far as I remember (did researches about that when I started p&p rpg 15 years ago) Plate armor does help a lot against piercing damage...unless you're hit in a joint (that you said). What plate armor doesn't entirely help against is pure blunt damage because, with the weight of your armor, you might fall and never be able to stand up again.
And, slashing damage? Well, if you're wearing plate, the slashing damage is usually transformed into less fatal reduced blunt damage (in the Middle-Age, most european swords were not very sharp anyway, they were not like katanas at all).
And if you're wearing chainmail, well you don't get cut in half by slashing damage either, it's converted to blunt damage too...but it can hurt A LOT.


There are other details I disagree with, but you nailed the general idea, so I won't go further.

[Etwynn]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

And, slashing damage? Well, if you're wearing plate, the slashing damage is usually transformed into less fatal reduced blunt damage (in the Middle-Age, most european swords were not very sharp anyway, they were not like katanas at all).
And if you're wearing chainmail, well you don't get cut in half by slashing damage either, it's converted to blunt damage too...but it can hurt A LOT.

This is a good point--getting hit strait across the chest (in plate mail) with a broad sword might not cut you, but maybe it would incapacitate you (stun) for a second or so. Alternatively there could be an overall (or even body-part specific) "bruising" rating that only goes down over time. Bruising could affect your general attributes or specific ones like runspeed for bruised legs, attack speed/dmg for bruised arms, etc.

Also, in response to people's concerns about the system being too complicated: I think the game could be slowed down to sub-realtime speeds. I'm not talking like matrix/bullet-time here, but just making it so incoming attacks occur "slow-motion," giving you more time to react.

If they designed the animations to be sped up/slowed down in conjunction with the combat speed, different items or areas of the game could have different combat speeds associated with them-i'd love to see differences in attack speed represented by how fast you perform combat animations.

Also consider that as per my suggestions, the attack rate of your opponent could be slowed down by targeting their arms/shoulders/hands. I like the idea of combat starting really fast and slowing down after a while to represent the characters getting tired and messed up.

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Etwynn

This is a good point--getting hit strait across the chest (in plate mail) with a broad sword might not cut you, but maybe it would incapacitate you (stun) for a second or so. Alternatively there could be an overall (or even body-part specific) "bruising" rating that only goes down over time. Bruising could affect your general attributes or specific ones like runspeed for bruised legs, attack speed/dmg for bruised arms, etc.

Blunt damage can break bones too you know (especially skulls ). It's not just bruises ^^

Anyway, this is complicated to describe everything.

Let's just say it would be cool if the devs could make armor types, weapon types and hit localization matter with the appropriate (complex) rules that go with them.

Might be CPU-consuming for the servers, but hey! it's StarVault who decided to make MO a FPS fantasy game, not us

[Etwynn]

Really, anything that moves combat away from the hp/debuff system to a (bodypart-specific) character "state" system would be awesome.

I think that while making *multiple* hit-boxes could be very difficult, a system like this would really set Mortal apart from Darkfall. Just another 1-hitbox game would be pretty depressing.

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by Welwordion

Oh and most important do not make the game to fast when you have many options, not everyone is a fucking mouse and keyboard houdini, what use is it if i have all these options when I can not use them in reality cause combat is just to fast to react.

Become a crafter or go play WoW.

[Shinzon]

A good gameplay will counter rapid button mashing, in that a few well timed strikes will take the masher out of comission, so it is really up to the perception skills of both players, to react to what they see on screen; not mashing so many buttons the keyboard ignites...

[OMGPIE]

Agree 100%

[draugruin]

Good post, OP! I want to add thou, that I hope the game allows for many different styles of game play. Two different styles that come to mind are, like you said, a defensive style, but also an offensive style. Say I want to play a barbarian who wears little to no armor, wields an ax in each hand, and whose general strategy would be to try and beat the cr*p out of his opponents. Of course a more skilled player with say a sword and shield would no doubt be able to parry and deflect his blows, and with a few precise strikes lay a fatal wound. But on the other hand, through pure intimidation and a furry of attacks, my barbarian could easily overpower the unguarded foe.

So maybe I'll have a character who only wields a rapier and maybe bears chain mail, whose fighting style is mainly focused on deflecting blows. Or perhaps I'll play a shorter character with little or no armor and only armed with a dagger. With him I'd mainly focus on dodging and throat-slitting! Maybe even a knight in shining armor with a two handed mace! He wouldn't care too much about defending as his armor would absorb all but the deadliest blows, and would focus on bashing his opponents.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the game should promote many different styles of play, whether the focus is on a furry of attacks or a careful defense. Either way, it should not resort to button mashing, although in some situations you might be pressing buttons rather quickly!

[TechnoTroll]

*thumbs up*

[The Last Spartan]

I'm suprised no one mentioned the Smackdown Vs. Raw system. You could damage to an opponent's body till it was in the red, and basically they couldn't use moves as well with certain parts, or were easier to pin.

[Pavlos]

Very good posts and ideas. This is the ultimate reality combat of gaming =)

Only problem is, like others stated, very complex and when in MMO a lot of data to transfer which may lag the game play to death.

We can hope, however, that there will be enough bandbreadth and programming inovations to at least include at least some of these features.

Keep it up folks!

[Traceur]

there isn't a single sentence i disagree with in the OP. there are some things i want about combat which aren't in it, but they've being discussed in other threads.

and i believe all or at list most of this will be in the game, seeing how they've mentioned M&B as an inspiration.

admir, i am sending you to the French SCA convention, and if needed I'm sending the Dev's to the Swedish one.

[Mirth]

Pavlis, it's not that heavy as you might think
Broadband or xDSL connection of 1-2Mbits may suffice
This means 500-1000 players on a 1Gbit line; if devs won't repeat EVE creators' mistake (dedicated servers for locations) and make a netgrid - it'll be all right

[Traceur]

i think I've said it else where before...

but this would require polygon-based collision detection in an MMO with physics beyond what U3 has to offer, including, momentum, impact & penetration levels for sharp objects. i know of only one man alive who proved to me that it could not only be done but it can be done 100% server side without increasing bandwidth requirements, and he doesn't work in starvault. in fact last i heard of him he's unemployed and drinking himself to death...

anyway, what I'm saying is that unless SV have their own genius in hiding, this features will likely be emulated, and it's not going to be perfectly real.

[Heliopios]

Only one game I know of has Active Combat perfect, and that's Mount and Blade, take your fighting system and give it the spirit of that game's, and you've got a perfect Noone-Is-Invincible system.

[Traceur]

yes, but could M&B be designed to function with many player characters and the constraint of bandwidth (not to mention the constraint of MO's advanced graphics)?

[Heliopios]

Originally Posted by Traceur

yes, but could M&B be designed to function with many player characters and the constraint of bandwidth (not to mention the constraint of MO's advanced graphics)?

Why would you computer be constrained? Because you're trying to process the entire world at a time? Why not just have "Connection Bubble" where you only have to process things going on in an area around you and not the entire world at once?


And if you're being slowed down by the advanced graphics, why would you get the game in the first place knowing your computer couldn't handle it?

[admiralnlson]

I don't recall M&B using heavy physics for combat.

There's like 5 attack/parry possible directions at the most, am I wrong? (left, right, forward, upward, downward)
If I'm right, then there would absolutely be no need for heavy bandwidth usage or heavy cpu usage (server-side or client-side) for that to happen in an MMO.

The arrows being blocked is not that big a deal either if you keep the same level of detail as melee combat (left, right, ...).

Even the momentum scaling damage (especially on mounts) wouldn't be so problematic as the server can easily determine your speed and its direction, and extrapolate the speed and direction of the attack (simple addition ^^).

M&B combat system is doable without worrying about the bandwidth/server cpu aspect I think.

What is hard (or very hard) to implement is something beyond what M&B actually provides, a "real" physics engine with polygon-level collision (for realistic parrying, knockbacks, knockdowns, ...). Apparently that's what some people are expecting though.

[Traceur]

it isn't using physics?

it has a limited animation range, yes, but between momentum, projectiles and collision-detection... if it doesn't use physics then I'll admit the emulator fooled me into believing it's a simulator.