Why no perma-death?

[Arxon Havenloft]

So you are proposing that no one ever leave the safety of an organized civilization behind walls? That really sounds boring to me to be honest. Considering the size of your small little player town in comparison to the massive large scale volume of the game world. Though I do imagine that if you were to do this, you would be quite safe.

It's living outside of these risk free environments that scares me. Even in numbers you remain afraid and vulnerable. Which of course is the point... But PD is not something that I wish my character to experience because of gankers. I want a more fair encounter.

Besides, you have to have time to build those civilizations which still means a huge gankfest in the beginning before everyone gets situated.

And I am way too tired right now so I'm going to bed.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

So you are proposing that no one ever leave the safety of an organized civilization behind walls? That really sounds boring to me to be honest. Considering the size of your small little player town in comparison to the massive large scale volume of the game world. Though I do imagine that if you were to do this, you would be quite safe.

their would still be crime, their will still be organized warfare - remember, with PD on the line resources & territory become a lot more important.

but a major part of the fun will be being part of those civilizations, building them up, protecting them together.

and it is because of this that civilizations will likely rise way above the 50-60 players town your used too - remember, in most games you don't really have a reason to build up civilizations in the first place.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

It's living outside of these risk free environments that scares me. Even in numbers you remain afraid and vulnerable. Which of course is the point... But PD is not something that I wish my character to experience because of gankers. I want a more fair encounter.

i never said not anyone - if your willing to take the risk, then go right ahead. if you want to play as a character with guts then you'll need some guts of your own. does having to think like your character sound unfair to you in a roleplaying game? for me that's the definition of roleplaying - not character progression, but thinking like your character.

[shad]

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Traceur

that's the definition of roleplaying - not character progression, but thinking like your character.

Traceur just knows better.

I'm assuming that's because he plays LARPs, and knows that when your character can die permanently, it's a lot more involving, thus enjoyable.
Same goes with pen&paper RPGs where you character dies permanently too.

Listen to him

[Traceur]

i actually did get most of my non-MMO roleplaying from LARPs (and my combat ideas and my inventory idea and... well most of my ideas ).

so yes, mage-players in my kind of RP actually do wear robes & hats

i do see a difference (LARPs last between 2 days to a week, MMOs last years), which is why I'd want death to be expanded to keep the same relativity - somewhere between 80-120 deaths seems right, depending on the combat system & testing...


admir nailed it and i didn't even think of phrasing it that way, but yes:
basically what i want is a persistent LARP with character customization (and maybe magic ).

[crawdad]

How about having a Heir to your legacy. Say a Son that you teach and leave your wealth to when you die. You are dead but now you play as your Son. You taught him all you know but he isn't quite as skilled as you were.

Would give some more depth to the game as well. The more you teach your Son the less you lose when you die. New character with a new name but keep the same last name. And with your family name being passed on, you would be known by your fathers deeds and retain the sins or rep of him.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

their would still be crime, their will still be organized warfare - remember, with PD on the line resources & territory become a lot more important.

but a major part of the fun will be being part of those civilizations, building them up, protecting them together.

and it is because of this that civilizations will likely rise way above the 50-60 players town your used too - remember, in most games you don't really have a reason to build up civilizations in the first place.

Yuck. That sounds like one the most boring games that I've ever played. It's like a multiplayer RTS or something(MMORTS?). Living in one town day after day trying to improve it.. I want to enter dungeons, slay dragons, fight liches, etc.. Host fight nights where players come from all throughout the land to enter.. Go sailing in the ocean.. Participate in Marine Warfare.. So many other kinds of things then sitting in a town following orders and begging people to join me outside of town limits. None of this is viable in a village.

Originally Posted by Traceur

i never said not anyone - if your willing to take the risk, then go right ahead. if you want to play as a character with guts then you'll need some guts of your own. does having to think like your character sound unfair to you in a roleplaying game? for me that's the definition of roleplaying - not character progression, but thinking like your character.

I have no problem with taking risks.. On a fair playing field. You want to try me in a battle 1v1 or 2v2 or hell 9v9 go right ahead. I'm all for it, PD or no PD. It's those that fight without such honor that ruin the game for me. And ruin the idea of PD being any fun for me.

You say that the "goon squad" wont be an issue in such a game but reality is reality. They will gain there skills to the bare minimum and rush the land. All who stand in their way better not have been playing for too long or they are screwed. I never said that it wouldn't happen in a Non-PD game, I'm just saying that it's easier to put up with in a Non-PD game.

Originally Posted by crawdad

How about having a Heir to your legacy. Say a Son that you teach and leave your wealth to when you die. You are dead but now you play as your Son. You taught him all you know but he isn't quite as skilled as you were.

Would give some more depth to the game as well. The more you teach your Son the less you lose when you die. New character with a new name but keep the same last name. And with your family name being passed on, you would be known by your fathers deeds and retain the sins or rep of him.

Too much effort to go through when all they have to do is add a statloss penatly to death instead and we can keep our characters and everything. I'm not stating that I'd agree with a statloss penalty, but it would be relatively the same thing.

[bluealien1]

Why not have permadeath? The answer is simple, it sucks.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Yuck. That sounds like one the most boring games that I've ever played. It's like a multiplayer RTS or something(MMORTS?). Living in one town day after day trying to improve it.. I want to enter dungeons, slay dragons, fight liches, etc.. Host fight nights where players come from all throughout the land to enter.. Go sailing in the ocean.. Participate in Marine Warfare.. So many other kinds of things then sitting in a town following orders and begging people to join me outside of town limits. None of this is viable in a village.

remember, people will gather in numbers beyond their circle of friendships - more then just a couple of dozens. you will actually have enough room to not follow orders, or to keep a low profile as a criminal in the midst of a crowd.

begging people? you don't have a lot of friends who'll just flow with you on what you think?

yes, it is a little bit of a "MMORTS" in the sense of actually requiring some strategy to survive. but that's about it - the rest of it is a lot more of an RPG then what your used too. because you can do all those things - you'll just be taking a risk doing them, just like your character should be thinking of them as risky, guess what? so would you.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I have no problem with taking risks.. On a fair playing field. You want to try me in a battle 1v1 or 2v2 or hell 9v9 go right ahead. I'm all for it, PD or no PD. It's those that fight without such honor that ruin the game for me. And ruin the idea of PD being any fun for me.

there's such thing is a fair playing field in an FFA PVP MMORPG - with or without PD, there's resources & population differences and power differences. if that's what you want, why stick to an MMORPG in the first place? what you want is simply impossible in an open world - it is what action games offer in their arenas and predefined maps. your not complaining about PD here, your complaining about the whole genera.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

You say that the "goon squad" wont be an issue in such a game but reality is reality. They will gain there skills to the bare minimum and rush the land. All who stand in their way better not have been playing for too long or they are screwed. I never said that it wouldn't happen in a Non-PD game, I'm just saying that it's easier to put up with in a Non-PD game.

repeating things and ignoring counter-arguments sure makes those things true!

how about addressing what i said?

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Too much effort to go through when all they have to do is add a statloss penalty to death instead and we can keep our characters and everything. I'm not stating that I'd agree with a statloss penalty, but it would be relatively the same thing.

as another anti-PD advocate said in a post not far away - "I'd much rather just remove my penalties and go back after him".

and that's the difference between statloss & PD - one can be removed, the other can't - it's permanent. yes, hypothetically you can make the exact same character again, but consider this in a skill system that you gain by doing - it is very unlikely that you'd end up with the same skill set unless you have the exact same adventures & activities along the way.

[Sorjak]

So what exactly do you propose in terms of PD in MO, traceur?

I'm not entirely for or against PD, i'm only against complete, die-once-die-forever PD; That's why i'd like to hear what system you have in mind to make it work.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Sorjak

So what exactly do you propose in terms of PD in MO, traceur?

I'm not entirely for or against PD, I'm only against complete, die-once-die-forever PD; That's why I'd like to hear what system you have in mind to make it work.

I'm against the die-once-die-forever too BTW.also, PD is character-specific. for MO this means that you keep your deva, you just loose one of it's characters when it perma-dies.

MO has a lot of possibilities that arise because of the etherworld:
1) the etherworld could have enemies (PvE) holding you back. each time you die in the etherworld, you face stronger enemies relatively to your characters skills. it becomes more of a challenge, and eventually you reach a point where successfully returning is very unlikely.
2) the etherworld can your second chance - maybe if you die in the etherworld you are permanently dead.
3) combination of 1 and 2: each time you die you have a higher chance of being killed in the etherworld and thus permanently dying.
4) alternatively to 3, maybe "permanently dying" is simply being stuck in the etherworld. you can still play, maybe even be summoned by necromancers, but you can not come back.
5) you need a channeler to come back. maybe the more times you die, the higher the channeling skills required. eventually you reach a point that no channeler can bring you back - it would require cooperative effort on a larger & larger scale, so while it is still "possible in theory" to come back, it's just not very probable. this however has a chance of becoming a Chinese-channeling service for money sort of thing, or a popularity contest, so i am not sure of this.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

remember, people will gather in numbers beyond their circle of friendships - more then just a couple of dozens. you will actually have enough room to not follow orders, or to keep a low profile as a criminal in the midst of a crowd.

And why would people allow these criminals to stick around? Also, if there are criminals running rampant within the villages, what's to prevent someone killing you there in the village? Right where you think you are safe?

Originally Posted by Traceur

begging people? you don't have a lot of friends who'll just flow with you on what you think?

My friends are all random. Most of which probably wont even be playing MO on it's release. I may have a group of 6-15 at the most. And while we have similar interests, we are not exact clones of eachother. Just because one of us wants to do something does not mean that everyone else will. Or that they'll even be online. And as I've said earlier, trusting strangers in PvP situations in a game where Perma Death is implemented is just plain stupid.

Originally Posted by Traceur

yes, it is a little bit of a "MMORTS" in the sense of actually requiring some strategy to survive. but that's about it - the rest of it is a lot more of an RPG then what your used too. because you can do all those things - you'll just be taking a risk doing them, just like your character should be thinking of them as risky, guess what? so would you.

It's about Risk vs Reward. You seem to avoid the reward part of that statement. Why should I risk everything that my character has accomplished just to go exploring one day? Or to go fishing in the ocean? Do I get some sort of bonus if I do it? The only bonus I see is the relief of not getting killed while I'm doing it. If it's not worth the reward, then it's not worth the risk. And if I can't even risk playing the game outside of a single town, if I can't even explore the world, then why would I play it?

Originally Posted by Traceur

there's such thing is a fair playing field in an FFA PVP MMORPG - with or without PD, there's resources & population differences and power differences. if that's what you want, why stick to an MMORPG in the first place? what you want is simply impossible in an open world - it is what action games offer in their arenas and predefined maps. your not complaining about PD here, your complaining about the whole genera.

I'm not complaining about the MMORPG genre at all. I understand that there will never be a fair playing field in an MMO, that is exactly why there cannot be PD. Because it wouldn't be fair to lose all that you've accumulated due to some unfair scenario (Such as the "goon squads"). This has nothing to do with the genre in itself. I can handle the consequences of being stuck in unfair situations in Non-PD games.

Originally Posted by Traceur

repeating things and ignoring counter-arguments sure makes those things true!

how about addressing what i said?

I did address what you have said. It's just that you have said nothing to make me doubt myself. You've given me no reason to believe that I am wrong.

I stated that unprogressed players would flood the land in groups and kill off many time invested highly progressed players just out of pure pleasure. Your retort was that progressed players should just stay in town with backup. I've already argued the problem with having such restrictions as staying in town in a massive world open scale MMORPG environment.

You've also stated that unprogressed players will be forced to at least progress themselves in such a way that they can be viable in combat. I've told you that that's not an issue. They will progress themselves as minimal as possible so that they are viable and with such great numbers, unstoppable.

You tell me that it's a risk that I must take.. I retort that statement with why? Risk vs reward, I am not rewarded at all when I'm not ganked by 20 unprogressed players, and yet I risk so much.. It's one thing to die from somebody that is as strong as you, or stronger. It's another too be ganked by a bunch of noobs. There's no honor in that. There's no entertainment in that. This is where I hope to show you the abhorrence of your Pro-PD Doctrine.

Originally Posted by Traceur

as another anti-PD advocate said in a post not far away - "I'd much rather just remove my penalties and go back after him".

and that's the difference between statloss & PD - one can be removed, the other can't - it's permanent. yes, hypothetically you can make the exact same character again, but consider this in a skill system that you gain by doing - it is very unlikely that you'd end up with the same skill set unless you have the exact same adventures & activities along the way.

Statloss could easily be implemented in such a way that it was permanent. Not sure how you didn't think of that. Though I would not be pleased to see its implementation for many of the same reasons that I am against PD.

And as for the list of how you'd like to see PD implemented in MO I just have to say that I dont' really like them. Basically what you are saying is that you want to be able to die multiple times? That's even worse than PD in my opinion. At least in PD once you die you can get it over with. With this you have to just continue playing knowing that you're just getting closer and closer to calling all of your current time a waste. I don't like that at all. I'd rather die on first death than 100th. At least then I don't lose as much.

Though using the Etherworld in combination with my idea could be interested. People in the "real world" still haven't died, but once they do they enter into the Etherworld in which they can then continue their lives? How does that sound? I don't know. Then you'd have to find a way to die and rez in the Etherworld.. Not that it'd be hard to do but it'd definitely be a game changing implementation that would of course delay any kind of timeline that they have in place for MO.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

And why would people allow these criminals to stick around?

they won't if they know that they are criminals. but since you need to gather in numbers for mutual safety (economically as well as militaristic), then you create a crowed - not just 50-60 players - and a crowd is big enough to disappear in.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Also, if there are criminals running rampant within the villages, what's to prevent someone killing you there in the village? Right where you think you are safe?

other players. because of PD. nothing 100% secure - it's an FFA game - but with strategic thinking, tactically placed and organized police forces, etc', you can minimize it.

ofcourse, without PD there really is nothing to do about crime. o yea, you can kill him! o wait... but that doesn't actually do anything... how about hitting the wall with your head instead? has the exact same affect.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

trusting strangers in PvP situations in a game where Perma Death is implemented is just plain stupid.

look at yourself, your alive. you grow your own food? you protect your own country? you police your own protection over your body & property? think how many people you trust, and you don't even know it.

trusting anyone in a non-PD is pointless.
but in a PD game trusting strangers is the only way to go. you won't always be right on where you place your trust - but that will just make the game interesting.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

It's about Risk vs Reward. You seem to avoid the reward part of that statement. Why should I risk everything that my character has accomplished just to go exploring one day? Or to go fishing in the ocean? Do I get some sort of bonus if I do it? The only bonus I see is the relief of not getting killed while I'm doing it. If it's not worth the reward, then it's not worth the risk. And if I can't even risk playing the game outside of a single town, if I can't even explore the world, then why would I play it?

it's a sandbox game. the reward is being able to do what you want. this can mean influencing the world (yes, a new feature never before seeing), or it could be fishing - whatever you want.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I'm not complaining about the MMORPG genre at all. I understand that there will never be a fair playing field in an MMO, that is exactly why there cannot be PD. Because it wouldn't be fair to lose all that you've accumulated due to some unfair scenario (Such as the "goon squads"). This has nothing to do with the genre in itself. I can handle the consequences of being stuck in unfair situations in Non-PD games.

it isn't very fair that you can gain it in the first place, is it? there's nothing special about gaining anything in a non-PD game. everyone can reach it eventually.

the genre (genre? genera?) comment was the fact that most of your complaints are not PD related. for you PD just makes what you already dislike about the genre worst. maybe your "ok with it" or "can handle it", but what you seem to wish for in almost all your posts is a persistent-world action game.

BTW - i had another game idea which you'd probably like, basically answers everything you usually ask for. it's a fantasy MMO, but not exactly a MMORPG... completely unrelated though, so I'll stop right here.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I've already argued the problem with having such restrictions as staying in town in a massive world open scale MMORPG environment.

as i recall your 'problem' was personal taste, so i just accepted it as a personal problem.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I've told you that that's not an issue. They will progress themselves as minimal as possible so that they are viable and with such great numbers, unstoppable.

really? enough to maneuver through natural barriers, weather & unknown maps while taking on food supply? enough to break through heavy walls & intricate defenses? enough to defeat organized well thought strategies formed by experience players who have learned the inns & outs of the game?

must be amazingly talented people these newbs you speak of. sounds like fighting them would have plenty of 'honor' & entertainment in them.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

This is where I hope to show you the abhorrence of your Pro-PD Doctrine.

why do you care so much if i have a different taste in games?

'honor' as you seem to think of it doesn't entertain me. i like roleplaying in the sense of thinking & feeling like my character, i like i like social intricacies, i like feeling like my actions have meaning, i like the feeling i am part of something - a group of people who depend on me and i depend on them - i like exploring a dynamic and constantly shifting world, i like all these things you don't seem to care about.

your concept of honor is very different then mine:
for me there's no honor in doing things when you have nothing to loose, there's no honor in achieving things everyone can do eventually, there's no honor in a friendship or a community where trust is pointless, and there's no honor (or anything else for that matter) in doing anything which has absolutely no impact over anybody - and that's really all you can do in a non-PD game.

if i wanted an 'honorable fight' I'd go play a one-on-one or team vs. team in some action game. i fight in LARPs against people who's fists are bigger then my ass - do you think i use honor to win? if there's dust on the ground i use it, if there's a tree i can climb then their I'll be jumping from. using strategy is not a dishonor.

as for permanent death penalties, that's just like PD but worst - let's say for the example of MO that your attribute cap fall each time you die. you'd eventually reach zero or close to it - just like PD. but this would mean the more you die the higher is your chance of dying again - your creating a downhill roller-coaster.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by bluealien1

Why not have permadeath? The answer is simple, it sucks.

Statements like that do not help the discussion. Please provide facts. Only after reading the previous rebuttals so that you don't post something that has already been provided an answer for.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by crawdad

How about having a Heir to your legacy. Say a Son that you teach and leave your wealth to when you die. You are dead but now you play as your Son. You taught him all you know but he isn't quite as skilled as you were.

Would give some more depth to the game as well. The more you teach your Son the less you lose when you die. New character with a new name but keep the same last name. And with your family name being passed on, you would be known by your fathers deeds and retain the sins or rep of him.

That was sort of what I was thinking off when I made this post... http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/28246-post64.html

If you live long enough then you are able to have a son/daughter, say if surviving at least 20 years. The son can inherit all skills at 90% efficiency. If you die before 20 years you can assume the role of the brother, i.e. all the skills but at 50% or 60% efficiency.

At any time you can have a cousin inherit. This is when you want to start a whole new character. You never lose access to a "son" successor even if you choose a "cousin" for a change in game play. Eventually you might have 2 or 3 bloodlines to choose from.

There are so many possibilities if characters eventually die. I actually think that those people that love designing their characters would get so much more out of this family "crafting" system.

[Arxon Havenloft]

It is a very entertaining idea. Though it doesn't change my concern for losing 10% or more of my time invested into the character. The idea isn't much different from a kind of permanent statloss system where the longer that you live then the less of a statloss penalty that you would then take.

I don't like the idea of changing my chracter name but I would assume that I could rename him the same? Why not? Many sons are named after their fathers, right?

My largest concern here would be that players would need to have more than one character per account, right? I don't like that idea in a PD game. Too many "Alt" characters that can wreak whatever kind of havoc on people as they'd like to without feeling the repercussions on their "Main" characters.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

My largest concern here would be that players would need to have more than one character per account, right? I don't like that idea in a PD game. Too many "Alt" characters that can wreak whatever kind of havoc on people as they'd like to without feeling the repercussions on their "Main" characters.

Yes, I realise that. Was thinkiing that you can only play one character at a time. If your first character dies and you qualify for a son you don't have to play him immediately. You can conitnue with a cousin. Only when that cousin dies can you either go back to the previous bloodline, or continue with that cousin's child (if he qualifies of course).

As to the time loss I think it is a matter of perspective. You would be investing time in your family instead of a single character. After a year of playing you might have a grand history to look back on with some illustrious ancestors.

In fact how did you lose time? There is no end level to achieve. You are having fun by surviving and thriving in the game against other players. If you character finally dies you are not penalised or put back in any way. In fact you PROGRESS onto the new generation. Albeit with different successors depending on your success. But why is that a problem? Do not want to be rewarded for skill? I though that is why we don't want to play games such as WoW and are feverishly awaiting the arrival of Mortal and Darkfall?

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

But why is that a problem? Do not want to be rewarded for skill? I though that is why we don't want to play games such as WoW and are feverishly awaiting the arrival of Mortal and Darkfall?

Yes, you are correct. We do want risk and skill involved in our dream game. However, even the most skilled of players cannot live forever especially if that player takes those risks often.