Ranged Weapons and Weapon Creation

[FoxReid]

what other arrow heads will there be. such as fire arrows, poisoned arrows.
and can you use metal in the arrow's shaft like a bolt.

[Pwntzyou]

I made a program that lets you "craft" melee weapons in MO, I was deciding whether or not I should add in ranged.

*Looks at sig*

[Renal]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

There will be different types of arrows, focusing on different types of damage (or even making noise). But again, right now they unfortunately all look the same, except for the material

If you have the time Mats I was wondering if you could answer these questions.

Has there been any work on how the different type of arrow damage works yet? Such as for the concern about hitting heavily armored opponents?

If there is an arrow designed to penetrate armor, how does that affect shields?

I remember reading either in the power point or somewhere else that if you block/parry with a sword against a melee attack you have to direct it.

If this is true and you can block arrows with a shield, is there the slim possibility that someone could "get lucky" and block and/or deflect the arrow with a blade?

Any response is greatly appreciated.

[Zenir]

How will the accuracy work?

Will the bow wiggle around, so you have to release the arrow at the right time to hit the target?

[Renal]

If there is going to be a wobble in the aiming, I would personally make it occur at lower skill levels. The higher your skill the steadier you hold your bow. Without testing it out, I would think the distance, trajectory, and if the target is moving or not, would make it hard enough to hit something.

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by Renal

If there is going to be a wobble in the aiming, I would personally make it occur at lower skill levels. The higher your skill the steadier you hold your bow. Without testing it out, I would think the distance, trajectory, and if the target is moving or not, make it hard enough to hit something.

I'm for this, less wobble as your skill is raised. Maybe something from strenght/dexterity as well?

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Renal

Has there been any work on how the different type of arrow damage works yet? Such as for the concern about hitting heavily armored opponents?

Yes. Your best option is to go with a very sharp arrow dealing a lot of piercing damage. Or a heavy arrow with a lot of blunt damage (that doesn't fly very far due to its weight). And aim for unprotected body parts. Still, it will be pretty ineffective against a good full plate armor, unless you are very close, or if you are firing a heavy longbow or crossbow.

But with piercing damage, you may hit a gousset. This is one of the few things in combat that are "simulated" or "random", as we simply can't have 20 hitboxes. Your skill as a player will let you aim and shoot at specific body parts. Your character's skill, your bow and your arrow will modify the chance to hit a gousset on that body part, meaning it will ignore most of the armor defense if it does.

Still, the best thing to do if you're an archer and spot someone in heavy full plate coming towards you, is run.

If there is an arrow designed to penetrate armor, how does that affect shields?

The more damage an arrow does, the more durability is subtracted from the shield. Depending on the material of the shield, it may be better or worse against different types of damage.

I remember reading either in the power point or somewhere else that if you block/parry with a sword against a melee attack you have to direct it.

If this is true and you can block arrows with a shield, is there the slim possibility that someone could "get lucky" and block and/or deflect the arrow with a blade?

Yes, you can definitely block arrows with your shield, but it does require a bit of skill. It is also possible to block arrows with your sword (as it's a mesh that is included in the calculations of the arrow) but you have to be very lucky. Or extremely skilled, and lucky

[drno172000]

I certainly hope the shooting trajectories make it into the game, it would mean that you could fire at objects over walls and what not. Also in mass volley fire would I think be effective if you could get enough archers on line.

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Yes. Your best option is to go with a very sharp arrow dealing a lot of piercing damage. Or a heavy arrow with a lot of blunt damage (that doesn't fly very far due to its weight). And aim for unprotected body parts. Still, it will be pretty ineffective against a good full plate armor, unless you are very close, or if you are firing a heavy longbow or crossbow.

But with piercing damage, you may hit a gousset. This is one of the few things in combat that are "simulated" or "random", as we simply can't have 20 hitboxes. Your skill as a player will let you aim and shoot at specific body parts. Your character's skill, your bow and your arrow will modify the chance to hit a gousset on that body part, meaning it will ignore most of the armor defense if it does.

Still, the best thing to do if you're an archer and spot someone in heavy full plate coming towards you, is run.

The more damage an arrow does, the more durability is subtracted from the shield. Depending on the material of the shield, it may be better or worse against different types of damage.

Yes, you can definitely block arrows with your shield, but it does require a bit of skill. It is also possible to block arrows with your sword (as it's a mesh that is included in the calculations of the arrow) but you have to be very lucky. Or extremely skilled, and lucky

Does it take any off the durability of a sword if you block an arrow with it?

[Ectroni]

I can just imagine the past times people will do with trying to block arrows with swords and silly things like that to entertain crowds, would be cool to see. Also about the whistling arrows... will it be possible to tie messages to them like the wiki said was common back then? That would be really cool.

[Balkin]

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Blunt arrow? That sounds rediculous lmao

Lol I meant blunt damage....

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Does it take any off the durability of a sword if you block an arrow with it?

It depends. As the sword is accounted for during collision even if you don't actively "block" with it, it's possible for someone to shoot at you and hit your sword (hanging on your hip) for instance. It will count as an "equipment hit". The arrow will do full damage against your sword, making it lose some of it's durability (although not much).

But if you actively try to block the arrow (by blocking) and manage to actually aim and block it, it will count as a "perfect block". On a perfect block the damage to durability is reduced.

The same system also applies to attacks and blocks with all other weapons, such as swords and shields.

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by Ectroni

I can just imagine the past times people will do with trying to block arrows with swords and silly things like that to entertain crowds, would be cool to see. Also about the whistling arrows... will it be possible to tie messages to them like the wiki said was common back then? That would be really cool.

Oh, like a act? Traveling circus ftw!

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

It depends. As the sword is accounted for during collision even if you don't actively "block" with it, it's possible for someone to shoot at you and hit your sword (hanging on your hip) for instance. It will count as an "equipment hit". The arrow will do full damage against your sword, making it lose some of it's durability (although not much).

But if you actively try to block the arrow (by blocking) and manage to actually aim and block it, it will count as a "perfect block". On a perfect block the damage to durability is reduced.

The same system also applies to attacks and blocks with all other weapons, such as swords and shields.

2 questions:

Are arrows hittable in the air, like can I hit it and smack it down with my sword?

And will different materials resist damage more then others? IE bronze sword will take more damage then an iron.

[FoxReid]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

With "traces" I mean that an arrow doesn't simply "trace" and hit it's target instantaneously upon release. Instead, several traces are being made, one from the shooter -> 20m, then one from 20m -> 40m, then one from 40m -> 60m etc. This means that an arrow flies in increments, and that you can actually (if you're really quick) run away from an incoming shot.

how will crossbows differ in their trajectories according to speed and weight.

[Ectroni]

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Oh, like a act? Traveling circus ftw!

Thats just what i was thinking would be cool to have little things like that going on in the game.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Are arrows hittable in the air, like can I hit it and smack it down with my sword?

Eh, well, you can stand in their way. And if you strike or reach out with your sword they might collide with it, as usual. But now we're probably talking 1/1000 in you succeeding in doing so, because an arrow is very, very fast

And will different materials resist damage more then others? IE bronze sword will take more damage then an iron.

Yes, in many ways. As an example: An armor will have a Durability value. It will also have a Durability Type. And it will have different "Absorption" to different types of damage.

Originally Posted by FoxReid

how will crossbows differ in their trajectories according to speed and weight.

They will simply have longer range and deal more damage.

[Mr Winter]

Absortion? Like, it can take so and so damage without any durability damage, or it can take hits from say physical damage moreso then range ( or blunt vs pierce, you get it )

[2020HindSight]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Eh, well, you can stand in their way. And if you strike or reach out with your sword they might collide with it, as usual. But now we're probably talking 1/1000 in you succeeding in doing so, because an arrow is very, very fast

Hmm, I foresee this changing after release, because if it doesn't I'll be incredibly overpowered. Your forgot to take my skill into consideration Mats.

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by 2020HindSight

Hmm, I foresee this changing after release, because if it doesn't I'll be incredibly overpowered. Your forgot to take my skill into consideration Mats.

Nurf the hindsight!

[NuadhU]

Originally Posted by 2020HindSight

Hmm, I foresee this changing after release, because if it doesn't I'll be incredibly overpowered. Your forgot to take my skill into consideration Mats.

That's ok, we'll hire that merc guild to shoot arrows at you to smack around while the rest of us go off and sack your base

[FoxReid]

Originally Posted by 2020HindSight

Hmm, I foresee this changing after release, because if it doesn't I'll be incredibly overpowered. Your forgot to take my skill into consideration Mats.

I highly doubt even a skilled player would be able to knock an arrow now. especially do to lag. more likely would be having a heavy armor guy getting in front of a lighter armed player.

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by FoxReid

I highly doubt even a skilled player would be able to knock an arrow now. especially do to lag. more likely would be having a heavy armor guy getting in front of a lighter armed player.

Or the guilds newest recruits.

[gotorobart]

Mats, how much of a difference can we expect between a Self-bow(long bow) and a Composite long-bow? will it be significant enough to make u go one way or the other. also same thing in regards to durability?
Thanks
Rob.

[FoxReid]

Originally Posted by NuadhU

That's ok, we'll hire that merc guild to shoot arrows at you to smack around while the rest of us go off and sack your base

that would be a good hire. have 10 or so mercs raining down arrows while the employer takes a different approach.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Absortion? Like, it can take so and so damage without any durability damage, or it can take hits from say physical damage moreso then range ( or blunt vs pierce, you get it )

Hard to explain, but like this:

You are hit with a club. The club deals a lot of Blunt Damage, let's say 20. You have a Padded Leather Armor that reduces the damage from the club, meaning you take 10 damage. Now, due to the nature of the armor, it has a high Absorption value against Blunt Damage, meaning it takes 1 damage to it's Durability.

You are hit with a club. The club deals a lot of Blunt Damage, let's say 20. You have a Scale Mail Armor that reduces the damage from the club, meaning you take 3 damage. Now, due to the nature of the armor, it has a low Absorption value against Blunt Damage, meaning it takes 4 damage to it's Durability.

What this means is that the damage that is passed on to you doesn't necessarily have to do with how much damage is done to the armor. In the above example, leather armor will stay in good shape now matter how much you pound it with a club. But a scale mail will eventually get dented.

[drno172000]

Will crossbow bolts have much, much higher penetration value. And will bows have a much higher ROF due to the ease of reload over crossbows.

[Mr Winter]

Ah absortion directly relates to durability, alright.

[Renal]

Thanks for the feedback Mats!

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Koshi, was the word I was looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_arrow

I was thinking about the signaling arrow for awhile. Is there any plans for more arrows built with utility in mind?

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Still, the best thing to do if you're an archer and spot someone in heavy full plate coming towards you, is run.

Maybe something I can use to slow Mr. Full Plate down while I run away? Or perhaps there will be a trap option I can use like caltrops and the like. Which leads me into another topic question. Will there be traps?

[Renal]

Originally Posted by drno172000

Will crossbow bolts have much, much higher penetration value. And will bows have a much higher ROF due to the ease of reload over crossbows.

I could see something like this happen, unless there are crossbows that have a bolt feeder.

[Ectroni]

Wow... separate calculations for the damage type for damage done and durability done to your armor.. You guys continue to amaze me. I never thought of it before but it makes perfect sense.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Pwntzyou

I made a program that lets you "craft" melee weapons in MO, I was deciding whether or not I should add in ranged.

*Looks at sig*

Nifty little program you have there, should be interesting to see if you can make that 142mil number lol.

[drno172000]

Originally Posted by Renal

I could see something like this happen, unless there are crossbows that have a bolt feeder.

Hmm. bolt feeders and repeater crossbows. Well I was just wondering cause if the penetration is anything like a real crossbow it will make crossbows extremely powerful (after all the pope said they were inhumane to use against christians). A slow ROF would be a good trade off, course if there are repeaters that would throw the trade off out the window.

[Akrid]

What about intercepting an incoming arrow with an arrow of your own!? It may be 1/1000000000 but, if it ever happens it would be the most epic moment ever in existence.

As long as it doesn't require a lot of work to do, I think arrows should have the ability to collide with each other, it just allows for some rare awesome moments.

[gotorobart]

Originally Posted by drno172000

Hmm. bolt feeders and repeater crossbows. Well I was just wondering cause if the penetration is anything like a real crossbow it will make crossbows extremely powerful (after all the pope said they were inhumane to use against christians). A slow ROF would be a good trade off, course if there are repeaters that would throw the trade off out the window.

Don't forget that modern day cross bows are VERY POWERFUL ( ive shot one through a 2x4 at approx. 10 ft. away) im guessing the ones in-game will be more medieval in style and have no where near the torque of a modern one(good luck loading one without taking a finger off if your in a hurry..) they should take a lot longer to reload and also be interrupted if hit during reload phase (if there even in game haven't seen it confirmed, other then mats talking about it above here{

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

...if you are firing a heavy longbow or crossbow....

}so maby that confirmation..)

[Renal]

Originally Posted by Akrid

What about intercepting an incoming arrow with an arrow of your own!? It may be 1/1000000000 but, if it ever happens it would be the most epic moment ever in existence.

As long as it doesn't require a lot of work to do, I think arrows should have the ability to collide with each other, it just allows for some rare awesome moments.

It might be a valid argument if guild wars pan out into huge battles. I could see the chance of this happening still slim but it would be an increased chance none the less if each side has a contingent of archers who fire volleys constantly at each other. But that might be thinking way too far into it.

[Renal]

Originally Posted by drno172000

Hmm. bolt feeders and repeater crossbows. Well I was just wondering cause if the penetration is anything like a real crossbow it will make crossbows extremely powerful (after all the pope said they were inhumane to use against christians). A slow ROF would be a good trade off, course if there are repeaters that would throw the trade off out the window.

As for the topic of crossbows, my thoughts are a mixed bag. I would like to see them as regular weapons but I also wouldn't mind if they were used more as a tool. One of my favorite Forgotten Realm novels had a Cleric who used a light crossbow with special bolts made with "Oil of Impact". The bolts exploded on contact when fired. I wouldn't mind having a crossbow to pull out to fire a special type of bolt, holster it, and either pull out my blade or try to get some distance and pull out my bow.

[SLiB]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

...
What this means is that the damage that is passed on to you doesn't necessarily have to do with how much damage is done to the armor. In the above example, leather armor will stay in good shape now matter how much you pound it with a club. But a scale mail will eventually get dented.
...

Very cool... great attention to detail.
It will be rewarding to experiment and mix and match armour types to find an effective combination.
Scale chest piece with leather leggings, leather gloves, and plate shoulders, etc.

[beatAdrumm]

Originally Posted by Renal

It might be a valid argument if guild wars pan out into huge battles. I could see the chance of this happening still slim but it would be an increased chance none the less if each side has a contingent of archers who fire volleys constantly at each other. But that might be thinking way too far into it.

Yeah, but I think it's a waste of programming time. In these battles unless they made a large, unrealistic animation associated with it you would never notice.


I was wondering too if there are many types of arrows, can you hold multiple quivers to have the option on the fly to change types?

[Renal]

Originally Posted by beatAdrumm

I was wondering too if there are many types of arrows, can you hold multiple quivers to have the option on the fly to change types?

Depending on how many arrows you can carry and have in a quiver. I think you would use one quiver with more than one type of arrow in it. Instead of having multiple quivers on your person.

[Akrid]

Originally Posted by beatAdrumm

Yeah, but I think it's a waste of programming time. In these battles unless they made a large, unrealistic animation associated with it you would never notice.


I was wondering too if there are many types of arrows, can you hold multiple quivers to have the option on the fly to change types?

I would think it would be as simple as adding the other arrows in as collisional objects. As long as arrows have a mesh. I vaguely remember working with this on the Unreal 3 engine at school.