Ranged Weapons and Weapon Creation

[ShiftSpectre]

Wow. Just wow. You guys are the best devs ever.

[Mr Winter]

Yep, its some pretty amazing stuff.

[Smurfz]

Jizzed in my pants.

Mats: Are these things pretty concrete and basically implemented already, or just sort of ideas floating around that you 'hope' you can fit into the game?

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by Smurfz

Jizzed in my pants.

Mats: Are these things pretty concrete and basically implemented already, or just sort of ideas floating around that you 'hope' you can fit into the game?

The archery thing they're testing in the beta right now, and the armor thing probably too.

[Jalisar]

That said, if we can keep it, needless to say it's going to have a large impact on archery. Although not very apparent when shooting at close-distance objects, it really makes a huge difference when shooting mid- to long-range. Also, right now it's actually possible to shoot the arrow straight up and hit yourself on it's way down(!), if you're very "lucky"
The damage from an arrow will decrease according to velocity or range, meaning hitting a nearby target will do more damage than hitting one at a greater distance


I can see the dmg mod you mention at mid range however wouldnt you think that after a greater distance of travel adding in the arc and gravity you would still do a fair amount of DMG? As a bow hunter irl the close hit will be the best of course but I have shattered arrows in the tops of houses and other targets attempting to hit a target at great distances. Thus my question... lol

[Zrug]

awesome replies Mats!

[adrala]

I dont know how Mats and rest can sleep in the night...I mean.....the game they have...how many big AAA developers would pay big money to get their hands on it?
And there it is..unprotected in their office in small Sweeden town...someone has left the window open...and a shadow is slowly approaching.....buuuu!

[Lion1978]

Originally Posted by adrala

I dont know how Mats and rest can sleep in the night...I mean.....the game they have...how many big AAA developers would pay big money to get their hands on it?
And there it is..unprotected in their office in small Sweeden town...someone has left the window open...and a shadow is slowly approaching.....buuuu!

seems there is a plan forming in your head

[Kelfatir]

Every winter I go white tail deer hunting with my bow when its hunting season, so over the years my compound bow has seen a lot of use (target practice + hunting). And through the years the only thing I've had to replace on my bow is the draw string since it eventually begins to fray and runs the risk of snapping.

So my question is, when a bow in MO breaks will the actual bow break or the draw string? A bow really can't be repaired, but a draw string can be mended or replaced.

[Revyy]

What about if you get hit by an arrow, lets say in your right shoulder. Will it stay buried in your shoulder untill you pull it out? or will it magically disapear after a while?

[Unahim]

Originally Posted by Revyy

What about if you get hit by an arrow, lets say in your right shoulder. Will it stay buried in your shoulder untill you pull it out? or will it magically disapear after a while?

I think it's a pretty safe bet that it'll disappear.

[Ennefors]

I wonder if you shoot an arrow and miss target will you be able to pick it up or will it disappear i hope that it wont disappear beacause its annoying to buy or craft new arrows every time

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Jalisar

I can see the dmg mod you mention at mid range however wouldnt you think that after a greater distance of travel adding in the arc and gravity you would still do a fair amount of DMG?

Yes, it will still do a fair amount of damage. In other words the damage range doesn't go from 100% all the way down to 0%.

[Mr Winter]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Yes, it will still do a fair amount of damage. In other words the damage range doesn't go from 100% all the way down to 0%.

Mats you never answered my question from yesterday, will elevation play a part in ranged damage?

[Shadowfall]

You mentioned that arrows that pierce would be the most effective against armored targets. Is there any reason why anyone would use a different type of arrow for lightly armored targets? Do these arrows fly slower (which they shouldn't, unless they're heavier), or are they more expensive?

Is damage calculated by the speed of the arrow, or difference in elevation between shooter and target? Do arrows change speed at different points in the arc, or would that be too taxing on processing?

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

With "traces" I mean that an arrow doesn't simply "trace" and hit it's target instantaneously upon release. Instead, several traces are being made, one from the shooter -> 20m, then one from 20m -> 40m, then one from 40m -> 60m etc. This means that an arrow flies in increments, and that you can actually (if you're really quick) run away from an incoming shot.

Couple questions on this.

Why exactly is calculating trajectory difficult? Are you finding that the calculations are putting excessive strain on the processing budget?

Does the arrow graphic and animation match up with the actual game location of the arrow?

What are the specifics on the mechanic you just described? Once you fire the arrow, does it "teleport" from your bow to the point 20M away, wait a few ms, then "teleport" to the point 40M away? Or does it travel at a steady rate in a straight line from one point to the next?

About how fast do these arrows fly? I've played some games where it was nigh impossible to hit a moving target at any decent range because of the arrow speed.

I assume you're using this point mechanic as a way of simplifying the arc trajectories, presumably to save processing. Approx. how many points are used? One point every 20M doesn't really seem like enough to me to aim properly, if you wanted to fire through a small space. Or was that just an example?

Also, I appreciate your activity on this thread; archery is my favorite subject in a game, especially if done right. So thank you!

My 2 cents about damage: I think you guys have it backwards. The farther an arrow goes, the more damage it should do, not less. Arrows gather momentum as they fall, and should do more damage at the bottom of a fall than at the top of an arc. Not to mention that archery is way harder to aim at long distances, and successful shots should be rewarded rather than punished.

[Zenir]

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Mats you never answered my question from yesterday, will elevation play a part in ranged damage?

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

The damage from an arrow will decrease according to velocity or range, meaning hitting a nearby target will do more damage than hitting one at a greater distance.

Together with the fact that a arrow comes back if you shoot it straight up, which mean gravity is calculated, that means that the arrow will be faster when coming down from far up and thus will make more damage (bigger veolcity)

[Sampzky]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

but right now (Combat Beta).

Hmm Does that mean what I think it means? What are you hiding? Hehe.

[Milkbeard]

Originally Posted by Sampzky

Hmm Does that mean what I think it means?

No it doesn't
Flying robosnails aren't in

[Mercerism]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Shooting
It's still really too early to tell, but right now (Combat Beta) shooting is done in arcs, with traces and simulated "real" trajectories. We're really doing our best to keep it for release, but we have to run some more tests to see how expensive it really is.

That said, if we can keep it, needless to say it's going to have a large impact on archery. Although not very apparent when shooting at close-distance objects, it really makes a huge difference when shooting mid- to long-range. Also, right now it's actually possible to shoot the arrow straight up and hit yourself on it's way down(!), if you're very "lucky"
The damage from an arrow will decrease according to velocity or range, meaning hitting a nearby target will do more damage than hitting one at a greater distance.

Well, but and arrow wouldn't just plainly lose penetrating power linear to the range, if you shoot it in a high arc, then it obviously loses acceleration on the way up, but on the way down it accelerates again.
So in the end it would be starting velocity - air resistance i guess.

Originally Posted by FoxReid

I guess it depends of bows can really be a primary weapon. considering you may not be able to penetrate heavy armor. but I don't want to see that in either.

Longbows easily penetrated full plate armor, chainmail and everything else in the medieval.
They also were bigger than the actual archer in many cases though.

[Milkbeard]

Originally Posted by Mercerism

Well, but and arrow wouldn't just plainly lose penetrating power linear to the range, if you shoot it in a high arc, then it obviously loses acceleration on the way up, but on the way down it accelerates again.
So in the end it would be starting velocity - air resistance i guess.




Longbows easily penetrated full plate armor, chainmail and everything else in the medieval.
They also were bigger than the actual archer in many cases though.

on the first part, definitly correct but like mats said, the dammage reduction isnt in terms of 0% to 100% in comparison to the range of your shot.

[adrala]

Guys please lets not dig too deep into details.
MO is not a medieval archery simulation game.
Archery is just one TINY bit of what the game has to offer.
We can not expect to have a fully realisitical archery in a MMO game with RT combat together with all the rest huge number of unique features.

I mean...we have fullly customizable bows...different kind of arrows...ability to block arrows in RT....arc trajectories...different dmg types...WHY DO WE NEED MORE?

There are ton of other things devs should work on...so let us say THANK YOU for gettig such great range system to work in a mmo game for first time in history and leave them in peace so they can keep on working....

[ZBlackmore]

I sure hope they don't drop the combat realism concept and take it to the extreme. A guy on foot with a melee weapon and heavy plate armor should have no chance against a mounted archer for example, a guy with light armor should never have a chance against a good sharpshooter standing in a decent distance him, and when an archer and a melee meet face to face that archer should die etc etc

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Shadowfall

You mentioned that arrows that pierce would be the most effective against armored targets. Is there any reason why anyone would use a different type of arrow for lightly armored targets?

No, not unless you take availability and price into account.

Is damage calculated by the speed of the arrow, or difference in elevation between shooter and target? Do arrows change speed at different points in the arc, or would that be too taxing on processing?

The damage decreases slightly according to range. We cannot change the speed of the arrow during flight (too expensive) and simply taking elevation into account would lead to other problems.

Why exactly is calculating trajectory difficult? Are you finding that the calculations are putting excessive strain on the processing budget?

It's not difficult, but it puts a lot of strain on the processing budget. Also, the traffic (communicating the data to other clients) is horrible. Please remember that we're not talking about an example where one guy is shooting an arrow now and then, we have to take into account the possibility of a large number of archers gathering up and firing their arrows at the same time over and over again. In a not very large example the processing has to be multiplied by maybe 10 (archers), and the traffic has to be multiplied by 10 (archers) and multiplied again, by perhaps 20, as there are 10 people being fired at, and all the combatants (archers, opponents) has to know about all the projectiles ..and suddenly we have 200 messages with trajectory-data being sent by each volley ..for one (1) of all the battles on the server ..and I hope you get the point. We still don't know if we can even keep this for release.

Does the arrow graphic and animation match up with the actual game location of the arrow?

As I said before, an opponent will not see your arrow or any streak. But he will hear and see the impact. (the arrow on the ground or in his chest, etc). You on the other hand will see an exact representation of the flight (the traces are visualised by streaks).

What are the specifics on the mechanic you just described? Once you fire the arrow, does it "teleport" from your bow to the point 20M away, wait a few ms, then "teleport" to the point 40M away?

Exactly like that, although the numbers are different.

About how fast do these arrows fly? I've played some games where it was nigh impossible to hit a moving target at any decent range because of the arrow speed.

We could of course make it fly instantaneous, having the small delays actually makes it more expensive - but it's more realistic and feels better this way. And it's definitely not moving in slow motion, it's very fast.

I assume you're using this point mechanic as a way of simplifying the arc trajectories, presumably to save processing. Approx. how many points are used? One point every 20M doesn't really seem like enough to me to aim properly, if you wanted to fire through a small space. Or was that just an example?

Why do you think other MMO's don't have trajectories? Because it's very expensive. It doesn't matter if it seems "enough" to me and you or not. To me, having as little as a 3-point trajectory would be better than using the usual straight line. Don't you agree?

Regarding aiming, it's something you'll have to learn and get used to anyway (meaning even in the 3-point example you would learn how to aim through that small gap). However, the numbers are only examples (they're not evenly distributed) and we do calculate up to 10 points if it's necessary.

Also, I appreciate your activity on this thread; archery is my favorite subject in a game, especially if done right. So thank you!

It's not that difficult do do it "right", if you have unlimited processing power and bandwidth. However, this is a MMO and the difficulty lies in representing archery in a believable way, with very limited power and traffic.

My 2 cents about damage: I think you guys have it backwards. The farther an arrow goes, the more damage it should do, not less. Arrows gather momentum as they fall, and should do more damage at the bottom of a fall than at the top of an arc. Not to mention that archery is way harder to aim at long distances, and successful shots should be rewarded rather than punished.

You're always rewarded if you hit something, as you still do plenty of damage. We only have three options here (sorry), either we go forwards, backwards, or not modify the damage at all. To me, shooting someone at 5 meters with my longbow and doing less damage than if I shoot him at 80 meters seems very wrong. Doing the same amount of damage from 5, 40 or 80 meters also seems wrong. Letting the initial velocity do more damage from 0-40 meters (where the damage drops from let's say 100-60%, and then continue to do 60% up to 80 meters (if that's the maximum distance) seems like a better option. But this is not decided yet, so any feedback is welcome. Please remember though that this is not science, we also have to balance damage vs range vs difficulty, something that can never be done on paper.

Originally Posted by Zenir

Together with the fact that a arrow comes back if you shoot it straight up, which mean gravity is calculated, that means that the arrow will be faster when coming down from far up and thus will make more damage (bigger veolcity)

No, speed is not taken into account, as there is no "speed".

[dzyan]

This is looking pretty sweet... My only concern (well, not concern.. just fishing for information ) is about the skill gain. Will you improve your skill by just shooting arrows or do you have to hit something? And how how does your base attributes affect the shooting?

[Zenir]

Uhmm.. maybe i just don't have the knowledge, but why don't you just send packets with the calculated start postion and angle (and the other information needed) and let him calculate the flight path and also let him calculate if the arrow would hit something in between and show it accordingly (What the client actually show is just an image, the real calculation if something gets hit is made on the server), that way we at least would see the arrows.

I don't like the idea of a few archers standing there shooting arrows and i don't see any arrows at all...

Also you could at a small time (200 ms?) where the player can't move or change the aim anymore, that way you get some time to send the data needed to display the fly path to the clients.

[Shadowfall]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

As I said before, an opponent will not see your arrow or any streak. But he will hear and see the impact. (the arrow on the ground or in his chest, etc). You on the other hand will see an exact representation of the flight (the traces are visualised by streaks).

Hmm. I like the fact that your opponent doesn't see the arrow or tracer, makes it more difficult to see where they're coming from. Although, won't it look funny if you see 3-4 straight lines in your arrow arc? The points I don't think would be very noticable mechanic-wise, but visually it'l be pretty apparent.

Why do you think other MMO's don't have trajectories? Because it's very expensive. It doesn't matter if it seems "enough" to me and you or not. To me, having as little as a 3-point trajectory would be better than using the usual straight line. Don't you agree?

Regarding aiming, it's something you'll have to learn and get used to anyway (meaning even in the 3-point example you would learn how to aim through that small gap). However, the numbers are only examples (they're not evenly distributed) and we do calculate up to 10 points if it's necessary.

I guess when I wrote that I was picturing firing at a 45 degree angle and seeing 3 lines. Firing nearly straight forward you wouldn't notice the difference. And having even just a few points as opposed to a straight line is by FAR preferable, i do agree there. Choosing the number of points the arc should have based on the angle of firing is actually pretty cool.

You're always rewarded if you hit something, as you still do plenty of damage. We only have three options here (sorry), either we go forwards, backwards, or not modify the damage at all. To me, shooting someone at 5 meters with my longbow and doing less damage than if I shoot him at 80 meters seems very wrong. Doing the same amount of damage from 5, 40 or 80 meters also seems wrong. Letting the initial velocity do more damage from 0-40 meters (where the damage drops from let's say 100-60%, and then continue to do 60% up to 80 meters (if that's the maximum distance) seems like a better option. But this is not decided yet, so any feedback is welcome. Please remember though that this is not science, we also have to balance damage vs range vs difficulty, something that can never be done on paper.

I guess to me it's just a matter of greater skill = greater return, what player skill based games are all about. If it's harder to hit something in the distance and you do it successfully, you should do more damage. But it's not a game breaker for me.

[Shadowfall]

Originally Posted by Zenir

Uhmm.. maybe i just don't have the knowledge, but why don't you just send packets with the calculated start postion and angle (and the other information needed) and let him calculate the flight path and also let him calculate if the arrow would hit something in between and show it accordingly (What the client actually show is just an image, the real calculation if something gets hit is made on the server), that way we at least would see the arrows.

I don't like the idea of a few archers standing there shooting arrows and i don't see any arrows at all...

Also you could at a small time (200 ms?) where the player can't move or change the aim anymore, that way you get some time to send the data needed to display the fly path to the clients.

Letting clients handle calculations of any kind is very prone to hacking.

EDIT: sorry for double post.

[Zenir]

Originally Posted by Shadowfall

Hmm. I like the fact that your opponent doesn't see the arrow or tracer, makes it more difficult to see where they're coming from.

Imaging you are walking through a wood and you suddenly become hit by arrows. There are 3 archers on different postions shooting at you.

You'll never be able to tell from where the arrows come, the only thing you can see is the damage indicator which shows you from which side the damage comes, but there are 3 archers and thats why the indicator always will show different directions. It even could be that an archer is right in fron of you shooting through some bushes and you won't be able to tell that the arrow comes from there because you don't see coming from there...

Originally Posted by Zenir

(What the client actually show is just an image, the real calculation if something gets hit is made on the server)

Originally Posted by Shadowfall

Letting clients handle calculations of any kind is very prone to hacking.

....

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Zenir

Uhmm.. maybe i just don't have the knowledge, but why don't you just send packets with the calculated start postion and angle (and the other information needed) and let him calculate the flight path and also let him calculate if the arrow would hit something in between and show it accordingly (What the client actually show is just an image, the real calculation if something gets hit is made on the server), that way we at least would see the arrows.

With moving targets, that would mean player A's version of your arrow would hit player B in his head. Player B might see the arrow pass by and hit player C. Player C might see the arrow miss completely. And at some point during all this player B would all of a sudden spray blood all over the place as he's hit in the stomach, because that's what really happened on the server. Yes, you would see the arrow, but that "image" you're talking about could be very misleading.

I'm very sorry, but technical discussions like this tend to be pointless, at least on my part. It usually ends with me having to write walls of complicated explanations, when I could instead try to explain other stuff about the game.

It's not like we don't know what we're doing (although we'll have to see about that, the game is not out yet), and we've usually been trying out a number of different approaches before deciding on one. To put it another way, I wouldn't comment on it or answer questions unless I felt I knew what I was talking about.

[Shadowfall]

Originally Posted by Zenir

Imaging you are walking through a wood and you suddenly become hit by arrows. There are 3 archers on different postions shooting at you.

You'll never be able to tell from where the arrows come, the only thing you can see is the damage indicator which shows you from which side the damage comes, but there are 3 archers and thats why the indicator always will show different directions. It even could be that an archer is right in fron of you shooting through some bushes and you won't be able to tell that the arrow comes from there because you don't see coming from there...

Except you'll see the arrow sticking out of the front of your chest.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If you're being shot from 3 directions by arrows, you're going to be confused no matter what.

Quickly moving arrows are near impossible to see in real life even. Unless you fire the arrow and know where it's going, and sometimes not even then.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Shadowfall

Hmm. I like the fact that your opponent doesn't see the arrow or tracer, makes it more difficult to see where they're coming from. Although, won't it look funny if you see 3-4 straight lines in your arrow arc? The points I don't think would be very noticable mechanic-wise, but visually it'l be pretty apparent.

It is kind of apparent. However, it's the best we can do and doesn't look too weird (remember that you're seeing the arrowtrail/arc from "behind", not from the side).

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Zenir

You'll never be able to tell from where the arrows come, the only thing you can see is the damage indicator which shows you from which side the damage comes, but there are 3 archers and thats why the indicator always will show different directions.

The best way would be to look at the impact points of the arrows (on the trees around you). The arrow will face in the direction of the shot.

[Zenir]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

With moving targets, that would mean player A's version of your arrow would hit player B in his head. Player B might see the arrow pass by and hit player C. Player C might see the arrow miss completely. And at some point during all this player B would all of a sudden spray blood all over the place as he's hit in the stomach, because that's what really happened on the server. Yes, you would see the arrow, but that "image" you're talking about could be very misleading.

Yeah but could be better than seeing just nothing. Idk what is better myself, you are the ones that can test the stuff, and if you decided this way it is probably the best way.

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

I'm very sorry, but technical discussions like this tend to be pointless, at least on my part. It usually ends with me having to write walls of complicated explanations, when I could instead try to explain other stuff about the game.

Then don't bother anymore and give me a hint how the aiming will work.. will the bow wiggle when targeting so you have to release the arrow at the right time to hit the target? Or will it just be static? (I hope you know what i mean)

[Shadowfall]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

It is kind of apparent. However, it's the best we can do and doesn't look too weird (remember that you're seeing the arrowtrail/arc from "behind", not from the side).

Hm. Would it be probable to let the client handle the tracer graphic calcs while the server handles the data? If nobody but you see's the tracer anyway it wouldn't impact other players and would look more fluid. If the end point in both algorithms is the same it would match enough to not be misleading to the shooter.



The best you can do is beyond good enough for me, considering how promising this game looks in every area.

[Sabbath]

WoW this sounds so great, i hope they can do all this. I love archery and will definately be crafting bows and arrows.
I just cant wait to get in and start testing this game.

[Volkira]

Mats can you compare the Age of Chivalry archery/trajectory system compared to MO's?

Is it similiar,better or simplier.

What is different about MO's archery and AOC.

It's taken me some time to get used to AOC but I have to say aiming at someone moving at long distance and hitting them is quite rewarding.

If MO is able to bring archery to the level of AOC or better then I'll be more than happy.

I would like to see though a real reason to want to use different arrows to just the the heavy piercing damage ones.

Reading up on modern archery on the net I notice thinner lighter arrows are used for long range shooting.Heavier less ranged arrows used for bringing down heavy game.

I hope the two examples above are in game as it would be good to have to make archers think about what tactics they want to use and what arrow types they want to carry.

In Gothic they use explosive tipped arrows and flame arrows are we to see these types of arrows as well.As an after thought I guess the explosive ones may be negated due to no gunpowder age in MO.

I really hope the trajectories system you've got working can make it into release.

[adrala]

Also I think even if the archery system in launch is lacking polishing it doenst mean it will stay this way. In future updates (and as technology advances) we may see very more complex archery.
Right now I think there are much morethings that are also important that need to be worked on...cough lore cough

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Shadowfall

Hm. Would it be probable to let the client handle the tracer graphic calcs while the server handles the data? If nobody but you see's the tracer anyway it wouldn't impact other players and would look more fluid. If the end point in both algorithms is the same it would match enough to not be misleading to the shooter.

We tried that just to see how it worked, but the problem is that in the "shoot through a hole"-example the perfect visual arc often differs enough to either shoot through the hole when you don't, or shoot through the wall when it does. It's the same when practicing and shooting on targets. The result is you cannot trust the trace, it's only confusing as it's slightly off - when the most important aspect is that it should actually help you to adjust your aim. So we did what we usually do: we chose what works best and is the most accurate, instead of the eyecandy.

The best you can do is beyond good enough for me, considering how promising this game looks in every area.

Thank you. Now let's just hope you say the same thing after testing it

[teaMate]

I don't see the problem. I think it's not so important to see an arrow flying around if not for the extreme realism.
If you want to dodge an incoming shot you can simply watch where the archer is aiming.
If you don't see the archer you can't dodge the shot in any case (perhaps due to luck while moving).
Also in real life it's hard to gaze an arrow flying very fast.
Instead an arrowtrail is usefull for the shooter.

[Slash Redhand]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Thank you. Now let's just hope you say the same thing after testing it

What does that mean? : O