Ranged Weapons and Weapon Creation

Renal · 31st May 2009, 21:11

Hey there, I'm new around here but I downloaded and watched the power point presentation and did what forum reading I could. I'm really excited about MO. I'm planing to be a hunter/scout of sorts. I'm planing to use ranged weapons (namely bows unless there are more options) and hope to be able to craft ranged weapons and maps. Does the community have any links to posts or other sources of information on map crafting, ranged weapons, and the crafting of ranged weapons? Will it be possible and/or different from the way the crafting of blades was described? Thanks for any constructive feedback.

ThePatriotGame · 31st May 2009, 21:12

I think map crafting is called "Cartography".

A bow would craft like any other weapon I guess, you'd have the main part of the bow, the string and whatever

Mr Winter · 31st May 2009, 21:22

Yea, bows would be crafted like verything else, having seperate parts. Nothing has really been revealed about cartography, except that its there.

Renal · 31st May 2009, 21:39

Thanks for the responses so far! The Cartography aspect seems really cool to me.

Icegoten · 31st May 2009, 22:09

Here is something I found that you might find interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

We're working very hard on implementing trajectories atm. It's not in, and it's far from a promise, but it does look promising.

If we make it, it means the bow shots will be much more realistic. It also means we'll move the "max distance" far away from the usual puny 20-30 meters in MMO's to a lot more. However, shooting at a moving target at a distance, having to take gravity and the velocity of the target into account makes it very difficult to hit a far away target. Just so you know. In this case, archery at long range will really take practice (player skill) to master.

havik · 31st May 2009, 23:33

mats says a little bit about crafting ranged weps in this post: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/1...tml#post262757

seems to be similar to melee weps.

Mats Persson · 31st May 2009, 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renal

Does the community have any links to posts or other sources of information on map crafting, ranged weapons, and the crafting of ranged weapons? Will it be possible and/or different from the way the crafting of blades was described?

Ok, let's talk a bit about the progress with bows and archery.

Crafting
There will be three main categories of bows: Short, Long and Asymmetrical. When crafting a bow, you must first decide on an overall shape from one of these categories. A Short bow doesn't require much strength and can be used on horseback, but has a relatively short range. A Longbow can't be used when mounted, requires a great deal of strength but also has a long range. An Asymmetrical bow has great range and can be used when mounted, but is much harder to aim with.

Next, you must decide if it's going to be a Self bow (made from one material) or a Composite bow (made in layers).

Then it's time to decide the shape of the limbs. A Composite bow may have limbs that are Decurve- Flat- or Recurve-shaped. A Self bow may not use Recurve-shaped limbs though (due to the extreme strain that would be put on the one material). Decurve, Flat or Recurve limbs will determine how much strain is put on the bow (durability), but also have an impact on the required draw strength (strength requirement, focus time), the range and the damage of the bow.

Each of the above choices will contribute to the characteristics of the final bow.

Finally, and this is of course a very important step, it's time to choose the material (or materials) for the bow. The materials used will greatly affect the final outcome. A Self bow is made out of only one material and is rather quick and easy to craft. A Composite bow consists of two layers, the back (outside) and the belly (facing the archer) of the bow, and you also decide the ratio between these two materials. Materials also behave differently depending on if they are used for the belly or the back.

Shooting
It's still really too early to tell, but right now (Combat Beta) shooting is done in arcs, with traces and simulated "real" trajectories. We're really doing our best to keep it for release, but we have to run some more tests to see how expensive it really is.

That said, if we can keep it, needless to say it's going to have a large impact on archery. Although not very apparent when shooting at close-distance objects, it really makes a huge difference when shooting mid- to long-range. Also, right now it's actually possible to shoot the arrow straight up and hit yourself on it's way down(!), if you're very "lucky"

The damage from an arrow will decrease according to velocity or range, meaning hitting a nearby target will do more damage than hitting one at a greater distance.

Mr Winter · 31st May 2009, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Ok, let's talk a bit about the progress with bows and archery.

-snip-

Thanks for the incite mats!

Also, you aid damage does less at a longer range, what if you shoot from a higher elevation?

NuadhU · 31st May 2009, 23:54

Thanks Mat, that was some interesting info

Zenir · 1st June 2009, 00:00

Nice post Mats, good to get some info

Any hint on how the aiming will be? Just aim and shoot or will there also be some kind of wiggleing so you are not fully accurate?

Renal · 1st June 2009, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Ok, let's talk a bit about the progress with bows and archery.

Crafting
There will be three main categories of bows: Short, Long and Asymmetrical. When crafting a bow, you must first decide on an overall shape from one of these categories. A Short bow doesn't require much strength and can be used on horseback, but has a relatively short range. A Longbow can't be used when mounted, requires a great deal of strength but also has a long range. An Asymmetrical bow has great range and can be used when mounted, but is much harder to aim with.

Next, you must decide if it's going to be a Self bow (made from one material) or a Composite bow (made in layers).

Then it's time to decide the shape of the limbs. A Composite bow may have limbs that are Decurve- Flat- or Recurve-shaped. A Self bow may not use Recurve-shaped limbs though (due to the extreme strain that would be put on the one material). Decurve, Flat or Recurve limbs will determine how much strain is put on the bow (durability), but also have an impact on the required draw strength (strength requirement, focus time), the range and the damage of the bow.

Each of the above choices will contribute to the characteristics of the final bow.

Finally, and this is of course a very important step, it's time to choose the material (or materials) for the bow. The materials used will greatly affect the final outcome. A Self bow is made out of only one material and is rather quick and easy to craft. A Composite bow consists of two layers, the back (outside) and the belly (facing the archer) of the bow, and you also decide the ratio between these two materials. Materials also behave differently depending on if they are used for the belly or the back.

Shooting
It's still really too early to tell, but right now (Combat Beta) shooting is done in arcs, with traces and simulated "real" trajectories. We're really doing our best to keep it for release, but we have to run some more tests to see how expensive it really is.

That said, if we can keep it, needless to say it's going to have a large impact on archery. Although not very apparent when shooting at close-distance objects, it really makes a huge difference when shooting mid- to long-range. Also, right now it's actually possible to shoot the arrow straight up and hit yourself on it's way down(!), if you're very "lucky"

The damage from an arrow will decrease according to velocity or range, meaning hitting a nearby target will do more damage than hitting one at a greater distance.

I'm honored to receive a reply from a developer so quickly and from my first post on the MO forums! Thank you so much for the information on the mechanics and crafting of bows. I'm really excited to see how everything turns out and has me dead set on crafting them when MO is released.

FoxReid · 1st June 2009, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Shooting
It's still really too early to tell, but right now (Combat Beta) shooting is done in arcs, with traces and simulated "real" trajectories. We're really doing our best to keep it for release, but we have to run some more tests to see how expensive it really is.

so does that mean we will see a fake line or something showing where the arrow will go?

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxReid

so does that mean we will see a fake line or something showing where the arrow will go?

I hope not, that takes away from realism and skill :\

FoxReid · 1st June 2009, 00:25

I guess it depends of bows can really be a primary weapon. considering you may not be able to penetrate heavy armor. but I don't want to see that in either.

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxReid

I guess it depends of bows can really be a primary weapon. considering you may not be able to penetrate heavy armor. but I don't want to see that in either.

It's been stated that if you want to penetrate heavy armor you'd either have to use long bows or arrow's designed to pierce heavy armor.

Vincent · 1st June 2009, 00:32

I think by "traces" he means a trail that follows behind the arrow as it travels through the air to make it easier to spot, not a line to show you before you shoot. Such a pre-shot line would remove most of the skill from archery after all, while the trace would make archery more difficult by letting the enemy see your arrow more easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

It's been stated that if you want to penetrate heavy armor you'd either have to use long bows or arrow's designed to pierce heavy armor.

I am guessing a recurve bow will be the most powerful shape, so I am guessing you might be able to get enough power out of a master crafted recurve shortbow, but it would also have much lower durability. Crossbows were much shorter than longbows after all, and they are known to have heavy penetration.

I do not want to see people that are missile proof, but I would not mind a heavy shield that could easily stop an arrow. It is just about getting around the shield. A really heavy shield would be difficult to use in melee anyway.

FoxReid · 1st June 2009, 00:36

I don't know if this has been covered but is there anyway of hitting between armor pieces? like at the neck or shoulder? I know there are the basic hit boxes for each armor piece but I figure a large part of medieval archery had to do with finding weak or exposed points.

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxReid

I don't know if this has been covered but is there anyway of hitting between armor pieces? like at the neck or shoulder? I know there are the basic hit boxes for each armor piece but I figure a large part of medieval archery had to do with finding weak or exposed points.

No, there aren't enough hit boxs to do that, it would require a hit box between every armor joint, and since theres going to be over 100 million armor types, it will be impossible to do :\

FoxReid · 1st June 2009, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

No, there aren't enough hit boxs to do that, it would require a hit box between every armor joint, and since theres going to be over 100 million armor types, it will be impossible to do :\

ah. well i supposed you better know your equipment when going up against a heavy armored enemy.

Mats Persson · 1st June 2009, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxReid

so does that mean we will see a fake line or something showing where the arrow will go?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent

I think by "traces" he means a trail that follows behind the arrow as it travels through the air to make it easier to spot, not a line to show you before you shoot.

Ok, I guess I'll have to explain this:

Instead of shooting in a straight line until the arrow magically disappears, you shoot in an arc that takes gravity into account. This means that if you shoot from afar you will have to aim a bit higher, and that you can actually shoot volleys against your opponent. It also means that an archer can aim 45° to shoot through a hole in the wall, and that the arrow (if correctly aimed) will fly through the window, and then start to plummet (and maybe hit someone on the other side). Or that you can shoot straight up in the air, and get hit by the arrow on it's way down.

With "traces" I mean that an arrow doesn't simply "trace" and hit it's target instantaneously upon release. Instead, several traces are being made, one from the shooter -> 20m, then one from 20m -> 40m, then one from 40m -> 60m etc. This means that an arrow flies in increments, and that you can actually (if you're really quick) run away from an incoming shot.

Balkin · 1st June 2009, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxReid

I don't know if this has been covered but is there anyway of hitting between armor pieces? like at the neck or shoulder? I know there are the basic hit boxes for each armor piece but I figure a large part of medieval archery had to do with finding weak or exposed points.

I think this could be simulated by creating arrow types that are better against certain types of armor. For instance an arrow that does blunt damage doing more damage to Plate Mail Armor.... (just an example)

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balkin

I think this could be simulated by creating arrow types that are better against certain types of armor. For instance a blunt arrow doing more damage to Plate Mail Armor.... (just an example)

Blunt arrow? That sounds rediculous lmao

adrala · 1st June 2009, 00:52

Mats and what about arrows?
Will there be different kind of arrows?
^^

FoxReid · 1st June 2009, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Ok, I guess I'll have to explain this:

Instead of shooting in a straight line until the arrow magically disappears, you shoot in an arc that takes gravity into account. This means that if you shoot from afar you will have to aim a bit higher, and that you can actually shoot volleys against your opponent. It also means that an archer can aim 45° to shoot through a hole in the wall, and that the arrow (if correctly aimed) will fly through the window, and then start to plummet (and maybe hit someone on the other side). Or that you can shoot straight up in the air, and get hit by the arrow on it's way down.

With "traces" I mean that an arrow doesn't simply "trace" and hit it's target instantaneously upon release. Instead, several traces are being made, one from the shooter -> 20m, then one from 20m -> 40m, then one from 40m -> 60m etc. This means that an arrow flies in increments, and that you can actually (if you're really quick) run away from an incoming shot.

Hurray for dedicated realism!

beatAdrumm · 1st June 2009, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent

I think by "traces" he means a trail that follows behind the arrow as it travels through the air to make it easier to spot, not a line to show you before you shoot. Such a pre-shot line would remove most of the skill from archery after all, while the trace would make archery more difficult by letting the enemy see your arrow more easily.

I am guessing a recurve bow will be the most powerful shape, so I am guessing you might be able to get enough power out of a master crafted recurve shortbow, but it would also have much lower durability. Crossbows were much shorter than longbows after all, and they are known to have heavy penetration.

I do not want to see people that are missile proof, but I would not mind a heavy shield that could easily stop an arrow. It is just about getting around the shield. A really heavy shield would be difficult to use in melee anyway.

I wonder if enemies will be able to see the streak or if it will just be on the shooters screen. If enemies can see there should be some arrows that leave the streak and some that don't.

Noryl · 1st June 2009, 00:57

Good info Mats! Please try your best to keep arcs in game, this feature is a bread winner!

Keep up the good work.

BlindMonkey · 1st June 2009, 00:57

Thanks for the info - everytime you mention the crafting system I get a little grin on my face hah.

I'm still coming to terms with how much of this stuff is possible, I guess when you free up time from writing all the features which were considered 'standard' by so many companies, you get the chance to work on some interesting stuff.

Mats Persson · 1st June 2009, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrala

Mats and what about arrows?
Will there be different kind of arrows?
^^

At the moment we have a problem with arrows, in that they "come with the bow". Meaning a specific short bow has it's specific arrows, shape-wise.

You can change the material of the arrow-head (and the material affects a lot), but we have to solve the visual (shape) representation of different arrow types.

There will be different types of arrows, focusing on different types of damage (or even making noise). But again, right now they unfortunately all look the same, except for the material

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

At the moment we have a problem with arrows, in that they "come with the bow". Meaning a specific short bow has it's specific arrows, shape-wise.

You can change the material of the arrow-head (and the material affects a lot), but we have to solve the visual (shape) representation of different arrow types.

There will be different types of arrows, focusing on different types of damage (or even making noise). But again, right now they unfortunately all look the same, except for the material

Noise arrows? For distraction purposes?

Mats Persson · 1st June 2009, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatAdrumm

I wonder if enemies will be able to see the streak or if it will just be on the shooters screen. If enemies can see there should be some arrows that leave the streak and some that don't.

You will probably not see any magical "streak". But you will hear and see the impact.

Mats Persson · 1st June 2009, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

Noise arrows? For distraction purposes?

Or for signaling.

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Or for signaling.

Thats interesting!

Edit: Will there be arrows that are like flares?

Branwulf · 1st June 2009, 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Or for signaling.

Actually that's an interesting point, get you set fire to arrows?

Norrsken · 1st June 2009, 01:04

What about the amount of arrows you are able to carry in your quiver?
Will it take alot of your inventory, and do you have to be a bowmaker to be able to make basic arrows?

FoxReid · 1st June 2009, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Or for signaling.

maybe you can make an arrow head with some type of whistle on it. that would be sweet. good way to signal an ambush.

Mats Persson · 1st June 2009, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Or for signaling.

Koshi, was the word I was looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_arrow

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Koshi, was the word I was looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_arrow

So just a big, noticable arrow that made a loud sound?

HolyPeanuts · 1st June 2009, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Koshi, was the word I was looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_arrow

Haha, thats pretty cool.

Mats Persson · 1st June 2009, 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Winter

So just a big, noticable arrow that made a loud sound?

Yes, a good means of communication.

And enchanting it could be very useful, yes?

Mr Winter · 1st June 2009, 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Yes, a good means of communication.

And enchanting it could be very useful, yes?

Enchanting is in? Can you enchant it to spawn a monster in the area the arrow hits?

Hopefully nothing that makes your weapon look like god made it :\

Such as:

31st May 2009, 21:11	#1 (permalink)
Renal Newbie Join Date: May 2009 Location: New Stanton, PA Rep Power: 1	Ranged Weapons and Weapon Creation Hey there, I'm new around here but I downloaded and watched the power point presentation and did what forum reading I could. I'm really excited about MO. I'm planing to be a hunter/scout of sorts. I'm planing to use ranged weapons (namely bows unless there are more options) and hope to be able to craft ranged weapons and maps. Does the community have any links to posts or other sources of information on map crafting, ranged weapons, and the crafting of ranged weapons? Will it be possible and/or different from the way the crafting of blades was described? Thanks for any constructive feedback.

31st May 2009, 23:54	#9 (permalink)
NuadhU Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Age: 33 Rep Power: 3	Thanks Mat, that was some interesting info __________________ Aegis Imperium Oh noez! I gots an infraction! What does that even mean?

1st June 2009, 00:25	#14 (permalink)
FoxReid Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Age: 21 Rep Power: 1	I guess it depends of bows can really be a primary weapon. considering you may not be able to penetrate heavy armor. but I don't want to see that in either. __________________ Tactical & Practical

1st June 2009, 00:36	#17 (permalink)
FoxReid Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Age: 21 Rep Power: 1	I don't know if this has been covered but is there anyway of hitting between armor pieces? like at the neck or shoulder? I know there are the basic hit boxes for each armor piece but I figure a large part of medieval archery had to do with finding weak or exposed points. __________________ Tactical & Practical

1st June 2009, 00:52	#23 (permalink)
adrala Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Spain Rep Power: 18	Mats and what about arrows? Will there be different kind of arrows? ^^ __________________ r e cr u i t i n g *apply here!*

31st May 2009, 21:12	#2 (permalink)
ThePatriotGame Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Éire Rep Power: 3	I think map crafting is called "Cartography". A bow would craft like any other weapon I guess, you'd have the main part of the bow, the string and whatever

31st May 2009, 21:39	#4 (permalink)
Renal Newbie Join Date: May 2009 Location: New Stanton, PA Rep Power: 1	Thanks for the responses so far! The Cartography aspect seems really cool to me.

31st May 2009, 23:33	#6 (permalink)
havik Newbie Join Date: Mar 2009 Rep Power: 1	mats says a little bit about crafting ranged weps in this post: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/1...tml#post262757 seems to be similar to melee weps.

1st June 2009, 00:57	#26 (permalink)
Noryl Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Buffalo AKA The LoW, NY Age: 24 Rep Power: 0	Good info Mats! Please try your best to keep arcs in game, this feature is a bread winner! Keep up the good work. __________________ Live for Everything, Die for Nothing

1st June 2009, 00:57	#27 (permalink)
BlindMonkey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Cambridge (UK) Guild: Hybrid Age: 23 Rep Power: 20	Thanks for the info - everytime you mention the crafting system I get a little grin on my face hah. I'm still coming to terms with how much of this stuff is possible, I guess when you free up time from writing all the features which were considered 'standard' by so many companies, you get the chance to work on some interesting stuff. __________________ Hybrid is recruiting all playstyles We love diversity

1st June 2009, 01:04	#34 (permalink)
Norrsken Newbie Join Date: May 2009 Location: Kingdom of Sweden Rep Power: 1	What about the amount of arrows you are able to carry in your quiver? Will it take alot of your inventory, and do you have to be a bowmaker to be able to make basic arrows?