PvP - instanced or wild ?

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Aiten

I'm not disputing that point. I am saying that instancing has its benefits.
You can't really have non-instanced arena fights due to the above, therefore no one really gets famous because instead of it being a sport to watch, it just looks like two people fighting as per usual.

and how does it look in an instance?

o right, there's nobody to look at it... yes, not having a crowd will surely make you famous.

a big arena and a couple of NPCs clapping their hands is a cheep illusion. players rounding up in a circle around a fight -is actually being "famous" in the mind of those players who watch. regardless of where it's placed.

and no - people are not going to join a crowd in an instance. i know i had something to do with that idea but in retrospect its a silly idea.

[Shinzon]

Instancing definatly has it's place but it should be reserved for technical things not gameplay things...

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Instancing definatly has it's place but it should be reserved for technical things not gameplay things...

but why is it even needed for technical things? how come older MMOs could do without it but new MMOs can't? are we going backward? is it some sort of compromise MMOs make in favor of better graphics? i admit i know little to nothing on server architecture, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Arxon Havenloft]

More players, better graphics/physics, larger landmasses, more NPCs, etc..

Darkfall claims to be able to handle over 10k subscribers simultaneously on a single server. Its graphics aren't the best to date but they do claim to have the largerst landmass so that's a tall order. Not to mention their marine warfare. If such a thing can happen then I think that it should be the norm nowadays. Of course they made many many many modifications to their gaming engine.

[Shinzon]

I don't know the combat mechanic but I assume it needs to be in a low ping enviornment, more people on screen, the more bandwith it takes to send to other people, it grows exponentialy. Let say the forumla for KB sent to each player is 2^(Number of players in an area)

so in a traditional MMO with no partial instancing, lets suppose there are 25 people in one spot, there fore it takes 2^25 bytes or whatever of data to be sent. That turns into 33, 554, 432 bytes or what not of data to be sent; big load in that area. Now you can use an instance of that area to break up the player population into 5 per instance. So instead of 2^25 it now becomes 5(2^5) and the resultant load is only 160, so you can have a higher ping for every party involved...

[Veith]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Hosting player run tournaments probably wont be all too uncommon. With our given rule set it should be easy to do such things and of course we could come up with great rewards as well, and people could watch and winners can become famous. Such things will happen, I'll see to that.

Perhaps also only a game, it should be handled like real tournament, not only hosted and then everyone can join, only organised in one town, and the player must go into the town, to the tournamentplace. A real tournament and not only a funny gamecontent nothing to do with the world.
I tested months AoC and instances, zones, such seperating all from all is perhaps neccessary for AoC but i anyway not like such 'needs'.
So if tournament would mean, you can join everywhere a seperated game then i will say no, thats nothing for also only a fantasyworld.

If tournament then the place for must also be defined.
(Again a bit like in Mount and Blade...)

[admiralnlson]

@Shizon:

Why would it be exponential?

MMOs are client-server based. Players don't send info directly to each other. They send info to the server (not much) and receive only from the server (a lot more).

Bandwidth usage should then be approximately proportional to the number of players.

However, CPU usage is kind of exponential. Basically, the server must compute how the n players are interacting with the (n-1) other players in the vicinity. Instances are the easiest way (not the only one) to make sure the n*(n-1) complexity doesn't get too high (n being limited) and prevent server lag.

Bandwidth's not the problem. It's server CPU usage (hence CCP's need for a supercomputer ^^).


(sorry, too many brackets )

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Traceur

but why is it even needed for technical things? how come older MMOs could do without it but new MMOs can't?

This is rewording a few things said already.
Due to the combat system, you can play EQ, WOW and other traditional MMOS with a ping of 600-700 and you may never notice or have it affect gameplay. Here, the important of ping will have a massive affect, perhaps the equivalent of a FPS. Anything more than 150 and your going to really struggle against other players.

Keeping lag down in a #1 priority.

[Veith]

@Aiten you are right, for classical style MMOG's ping is nearly not impotant, im playing also as MMOG BGE (ww2online) and there i have around 150-200 very constantely. So you are able to play it also because practically all players have most times same ping-number, if playing in texas where the only server stands or in europe, its for me a bit astonishing but it seems to function.
Finally its something what you demand from a game and sure it must technical possible to play.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Hmm.. Out of all of the MMOs that I've played I've never had Lag issues due to the amount of players in an area.. I've played games with over a hundred people in one location. Now on free games that might disconnect me, but otherwise if I'm not disconnected I notice nothing. And I've always had a good computer so I don't know the affects of having a bad computer in those situations.

But in UO on 56k we would have about 30-60 people on the roof of a large tower during fight nights.. That's a lot to load though we were never really affected by it.

[Shinzon]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

@Shizon:

Why would it be exponential?

MMOs are client-server based. Players don't send info directly to each other. They send info to the server (not much) and receive only from the server (a lot more).

Bandwidth usage should then be approximately proportional to the number of players.

However, CPU usage is kind of exponential. Basically, the server must compute how the n players are interacting with the (n-1) other players in the vicinity. Instances are the easiest way (not the only one) to make sure the n*(n-1) complexity doesn't get too high (n being limited) and prevent server lag.

Bandwidth's not the problem. It's server CPU usage (hence CCP's need for a supercomputer ^^).


(sorry, too many brackets )

Suppose so; I still didn't have my Networking Course

But it was more of a general example of how an instance can releave server stress, be it bandwith or CPU...

[Traceur]

in that case, i hope "instances" is just a phase the industry is going through until they can get the technology sorted out.

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Traceur

in that case, i hope "instances" is just a phase the industry is going through until they can get the technology sorted out.

We all know the rule, computing power doubles every 18 months. They will go, just not quite yet.

(plus they are useful at giving a cinematic experience, scripted dungeons with traps and effects that make you go "WOW". Otherwise, if you stand there, its like standing still on the side of a Disney ride, the explosions keep going off, the boulders fall down etc over and over. That's not related to PVP though)

[Traceur]

we kind of cheating on Moore's law by now, aren't we? i mean we are practically just pushing more cores together... instead of more powerful chips they are just trying to workout "chip teamwork" & teaching them to "keep their cool"

i don't know if i like this direction: instead of computers getting smaller they are going to start getting bigger...

[Chupaloco]

A good MMO have a seamless world.

Only instance the dungouens and the open world not. I quite EQ2 because that instance crap.

Imagine you are chasing your target and he goes to another zone. He zones in zone A and you zone in zone B. I bet you will "WTF !@#!$#!$".

[Therg]

Unresticted wild pvp. Creates tension between friend-circuts/guilds, got to love the drama :>. Nah, but seriously, it makes the server kind of more like a community. Especially if there are relatively lagre losses/gains from killing each other.

[Darq]

town centers and markets heavily guarded, so that attacking a player would be pointless
rest is ffa which includes no instanced pvp zones

[Stavro]

The number one cause for my adrenaline to start pumping mid-game is fear. Fear that I may lose my revered Bastard Sword that took my months to acquire. Fear that I'm going to lose my magical armor, and I haven't the slightest idea where I am, so I won't be able to return to my corpse. Its times like these that make the game fun, and memorable.

If I know that I can sprint 10 feet behind me and be zoned out of harm's way, it takes away that fear. In countless MMORPG's today this is the case. In Everquest I could simply zone out of dangers way. I couldn't tell you how many times I went to areas way above my level because I knew I had no chance of dying, because of zoning.

Personally, to keep that fear in the game, PvP needs to be wild and nearly unrestricted.

(of course I also do believe there should be some areas where PvP is limited, for example, newbie training areas. It would be a horrible first impression of the game if someone creates a character, spawns to the opening area of the game, and is sliced in two by a PvP character stealing their newbie gold.)

[rejekt]

Instanced PvP is a complete joke, at least in its current form with games that are using it. Going to a specific location that you know a lot of PvP takes place at and completely random PvP in the world is much more interesting.

If it's a specific location where a lot of PvP happens, it's a something that is created by the community. Random world PvP is much more thrilling, keeping an eye on the environment around you to see if anyone is showing aggressive actions or intentions, etc.

[MasterMind]

Wild, because there will be countless possibilities and instanced for guilds meeting on a battleground.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by MasterMind

Wild, because there will be countless possibilities and instanced for guilds meeting on a battleground.

Guilds on a battleground? Screw that, just attack another guild's fortress and burn it to the ground! Or set up a tournament against them. Or join a faction of some sort and do mass pvp that way. Assuming such things will be possible in MO.

[Traceur]

or ally with others and do a ban on their crafted exports taking their economy to the ground, or send spies acting as newbie recruits into their ranks and use them for stealthy sabotage, or take their central mines and expand your armory while their expansion is shoved to a halt, or sand PvE expeditions to search for new potential mines & monster which may provide you with new craftable items that would give you the edge in combat...

so many possibilities

[Mouse Sidurien]

Safe areas yes, all else should be wild pvp. That really adds to a game in my opinion. also Maybe battle arenas can exist but should NOT be the main form of combat. Also does anyone know if you have to accept a "Duel?" or is it free for all pvp for real? J/w Pm me if you know a thread I could read with that info.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Mouse Sidurien

Safe areas yes, all else should be wild pvp. That really adds to a game in my opinion. also Maybe battle arenas can exist but should NOT be the main form of combat. Also does anyone know if you have to accept a "Duel?" or is it free for all pvp for real? J/w Pm me if you know a thread I could read with that info.

it's free for all PvP.

the thread i linked in my signature has all the available info, including links to their sources (the original dev' quotes) and the information summary below.

enjoy the read- I have a feeling your going to like it

[Arxon Havenloft]

I wonder if they'll implement a "dueling" system anyways.. So we don't get penalized for winning since we both accepted the battle? I am a little curious.