instanced history & storytelling

[Traceur]

it's an idea i have being toying for how to use instances in a sandbox game:

you open a book - an historical record - either alone or possibly with others (set "read out loud" mode), and you are taken into a past event from the game's lore. depending on the book & how many main characters it has, you & the people listening to the story would each pick a character (giving you an opportunity to experience a different character, which is often what reading a book is about), and as the events take place around you you will be railroaded to play out the story.

playing through these instances will most likely increase lore-related skills, and may provide actual helpful info about the game world. to not use it as a defensive exploit, if your avatar is attacked or being spoken too the story will pause and you will return to the persistent world immediately.

i also like the idea of maybe an archeology skill where you can dig & snoop around ancient ruins and historical places, and you would accumulate "hints" about an event that took place there. once you have enough (depending on your skill level), it will unlock the related instance, and after you finished playing through it you would be able to create an "historical record" and share it with others.

another idea (inspired by the old ryzom ring project) is using something similar to "write down" stories: giving players the GMing tools to create instanced mission or quests, based on whatever fiction they choose to place in it, and then share it or even sell it in the form of a book. naturally these stories should not add any benefit to the player, but unlike historical records, the creator might have an option to allow the reader use of their own character.

[CryeMoore]

Originally Posted by Traceur

i also like the idea of maybe an archeology skill where you can dig & snoop around ancient ruins and historical places, and you would accumulate "hints" about an event that took place there. once you have enough (depending on your skill level), it will unlock the related instance, and after you finished playing through it you would be able to create an "historical record" and share it with others.

This is something that I have thought of, as well. I like the idea of not having the quest line handed to you. Knowing more about your world allows you to know better where to go find some adventures. This could be a way for devs to introduce the unique "epic" creatures into the game.

I see it going like this: months before the new creature is introduced hints are put around the world; people begin to find these hints (through archeological clues, over hearing stories in public places, etc.) and start to put the pieces together; eventually enough information is out there and someone figures out where the "epic" creature is and gathers enough people to go and kill it.

[Blahman]

The archaeology skill sounds interesting but I just despise instancing in general. If someone is in an instance that means they aren't in the main game world which means they can't be attacked (obviously), and also takes away from the continuous, persistant world an MMO should offer.

[Traceur]

already covered:

Originally Posted by Blahman

If someone is in an instance that means they aren't in the main game world which means they can't be attacked (obviously), and also takes away from the continuous, persistant world an MMO should offer.

that's why i said: "to not use it as a defensive exploit, if your avatar is attacked or being spoken too the story will pause and you will return to the persistent world immediately"

Originally Posted by Blahman

and also takes away from the continuous, persistant world an MMO should offer.

that's why the instances would be limited to in game "books" or "archeology visions": it doesn't take the character out of the persistent world - it just takes you into the characters head, where the instanced quest unfolds.

[F0rd]

I actually like the idea a lot, it's not only unique, but sounds very.. intriguing. I've seen many things I could call unique spawn from your fingertips, Traceur, but I think I like this idea the most.

[OMGPIE]

Cool idea I like lore it interests me.

[Danach]

Definitely a good way to gather lore from the world but in terms of character progression, I see little way it could help. Maybe it could be a precursor for a quest in which a character has to adventure to said location in the story?

[The Last Spartan]

A very good idea, and makes an instance seem more real and doesn't break the game feeling. Nice Traceur.

[Skree]

Instancing takes you out of the game world and is for carebears.

FFA-PvP-Full loot is what's needed in the MMO world, not more WoW clones.

Hopefully these devs will not cave in to carebears...they already have classes, ad instances and you are just another MMO.

Skree

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Skree

Instancing takes you out of the game world and is for carebears.

FFA-PvP-Full loot is what's needed in the MMO world, not more WoW clones.

Hopefully these Dev's will not cave in to carebears...they already have classes, ad instances and you are just another MMO.

Skree

they-don't-have-classes-in-the-sense-you-think-of
-read-the-updates

and-the-instancing-i-described-above-doesn't-take-you-out-of-the-world.
-read-the-OP

[Veith]

I think its clear what you want, also there would be only unique quests like treasure hunt, dungeons are anyway limited, the places where treasures could be found in an interesting way. And there would be finally still 20 groups searching in the same dungeon for different (not the same) treasure, would be also more ridiculous. To make a treasurefinding quest to something unique the place you must search for must be also unique (not in design but for gameplay), thats the wanted mood. Or gameplay feels again only like holidaypark and the reward is guaranteed for all.
'Get your treasuremap and follow the arrow, but please dont trouble other parties!'. Thats very bad. Also other parties would play other quests or only some dungeonrunning for hunting monsters or kill the treasurehunters.
There are surely few possibilities for a really believable solution if you want to create terasure hunt quests.

To instance those 'quest'dungeons, often same design but different treasure, because such loot must be really unique, only one quest at the same time could be solved in that dungeon and if not played in the next amount of hours that quest will be automatically cancelled or then opened for all other players, if the origin party was not able to free/find the treasure.
Or all folks can search in the dungeons for all possible quests, like now in SWG its surely amusing you see different groups, some soloists all running for the same goals with nearly same level in the same dungeons.
Also the quests would be in MO in some details different, its anyway more funny than fun. Adventureparks 'limited'.
Finally quests are anyway preprogrammed rewards, results are not reasoned by playerabilities only by the fact players must replay that story. Thats the most boring aspect of those quests in normal MMORPG's. Perhaps would be really better if you have one chance to get the treasure and if not, no second.

Also not entire PD will be designed, PD for that instance/quest could be realized without destroying the 'i play my char forever' feeling

[Traceur]

loot?
when--have-you-ever-read-a-book-and-got-loot-popping-out-when-you-reach-the-end?

though-it's-a-good-way-to-give-a-present-to-someone-in-RL...
like-placing-a-birthday-card-in-the-last-page....
that's-actually-a-good-idea


but-for-the-instancing-i-describe,-no-loot.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Traceur

they-don't-have-classes-in-the-sense-you-think-of
-read-the-updates

and-the-instancing-i-described-above-doesn't-take-you-out-of-the-world.
-read-the-OP

Skree was just basing his opinion on the concept of "instances" as they are used in other games. I think the type of instance you are suggesting is like a dream-sequence and really much too difficult to implement. Plus, any PvE code designed to take away the social aspect of playing with everyone else in the game is a bad idea.

As far as your other "instance" ideas go, forget about them. Instances really don't have any place in a PvP MMO sandbox game. Don't get brainwashed by WoW or AoC into thinking those types of things in a game are "ok".

[Traceur]

but,-but...-i-never-played-WoW-or-AOC

generally-for-me-it's-very-simple:
1.at-no-point-in-a-sandbox-game-do-you-leave-the-sandbox
2.the-instance-has-to-be-realistic-within-the-context-of-the-world
as-long-as-instances-don't-break-that-rule:-your-avatar's-body-is-still-vulnerable-to
others-in-the-shared-virtual-world,-and-the-instance-makes-sense-within-the-context
then-the-instance-is-ok.

i-too-dislike-how-current-games-are-doing-it.-but-i-don't-mind-using-the-application
in-ways-which-don't-go-against-the-rest-of-the-sandbox-gameplay-designs.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by CryeMoore

I see it going like this: months before the new creature is introduced hints are put around the world; people begin to find these hints (through archeological clues, over hearing stories in public places, etc.) and start to put the pieces together; eventually enough information is out there and someone figures out where the "epic" creature is and gathers enough people to go and kill it.

I don't think the OP is really about an instance like some people are suggesting. You are still vulnerable.

The above quote is good. Continual story-telling would fit in perfectly with a player-impacted world. You don't start up with oodles of lore, only the background, but add events as required. They could easily use this as a primer for activity and conflict in the world.

[Skree]

Originally Posted by Traceur

but,-but...-i-never-played-WoW-or-AOC

generally-for-me-it's-very-simple:
1.at-no-point-in-a-sandbox-game-do-you-leave-the-sandbox
2.the-instance-has-to-be-realistic-within-the-context-of-the-world
as-long-as-instances-don't-break-that-rule:-your-avatar's-body-is-still-vulnerable-to
others-in-the-shared-virtual-world,-and-the-instance-makes-sense-within-the-context
then-the-instance-is-ok.

i-too-dislike-how-current-games-are-doing-it.-but-i-don't-mind-using-the-application
in-ways-which-don't-go-against-the-rest-of-the-sandbox-gameplay-designs.

Idiot Mythic put instances in DAoC so there are plenty of places to go experience instances.

I based my opinion on instances I have experienced.

If you want to create some kinda instanced dream something or other that leaves you vunerable to me getting in a free shot, more power to you. I'm pretty sure that would not be called an instance. I think you are looking more along the lines of EQ's mini-game crap.

Why not just read a book till someone ganks you ? Same effect. Just turn off the monitor till your toon screams.

If you don't understand that then welcome to the world of FFA-PvP.
____________________________________

I've read all about the classes double-speak-flexible-stuff.

I'm a simple minded, linear thinking, redneck. If it ain't classes then don't call it classes 15 times while trying to tell me it ain't classes.

You either iz class based or you iz ain't. Real simple.
_____________________________________________

I-think-I-could-get-to-like-these-dashes-between-each-word-thing.

O-r_M-a-y-b-e_t-h-i-s_w-o-u-l-d_m-a-k-e_m-e_l-o-o-k_e-v-e-n_c-o-o-l-e-r.

P-u-n-c-t-u-a-t-i-o-n_w-o-u-l-d_b-e_a_b-i-t-c-h_t-h-o-u-g-h.

Skree

[Veith]

@Skree im also against instances but if there will be some its also a difference if those are finally the most played content and the first world-pvp will be then only a curious part of the game for some mad killers or it will be really only a more unimportant part ingame.
I would be glad if the game needs no AI a player could also play, means any equivalent intelligence to 'us' must be players, only real beasts and animals AI controlled and perhaps if there are shops some NPC's factly 'trader-automats' instead only bulletin boards. But im knowing its nearly impossible to stay on the market without many mob's to kill with the actually false suggeration those are a challenge.

Practically all MMORPG's with instancing making instances to nearly most important parts and so finally to the only for chardevelopment interesting content. And thats bad.

But so sure, better no single instance than instances forces players to do those.
But why designing instances if those have no relevance for gameplay?

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Skree

Why not just read a book till someone ganks you ? Same effect. Just turn off the monitor till your toon screams.

Ahhh, everything I hate about the mega loyal FFA-PVP crowd is here.

PVP first.
Gameplay second.
Anything else not related to combat, irrelevant fluff.



(I'm interested in FFA PVP, but its not the be all and end all of the game, mostly because all MMO combat is the equivalent of Chlamydia, fun for a bit then you realise its a bit shit compared to pure combat games without the social focus)

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Skree

I've read all about the classes double-speak-flexible-stuff.

I'm a simple minded, linear thinking, redneck. If it ain't classes then don't call it classes 15 times while trying to tell me it ain't classes.

You either iz class based or you iz ain't. Real simple.

i'm going to quote you on that in my "update the confusing FAQ" campaign

[F0rd]

wait... Traceur, wasn't you keyboard broken? If not, I've got a bone to pick with you >.>''.

Just look at Skree's post count, and that SHOULD tell you something about how valid of an opinion he has, when in his first ten posts he's already trolling the boards. He's not looking to be converted, he's looking for some cheap victory using a minimum of logic.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Skree

I-think-I-could-get-to-like-these-dashes-between-each-word-thing.

O-r_M-a-y-b-e_t-h-i-s_w-o-u-l-d_m-a-k-e_m-e_l-o-o-k_e-v-e-n_c-o-o-l-e-r.

P-u-n-c-t-u-a-t-i-o-n_w-o-u-l-d_b-e_a_b-i-t-c-h_t-h-o-u-g-h.

Yeah, definitely worth listening to.

[Traceur]

i just came back from the mechanic - my car is fixed, i have mobility again!
got a new keyboard on the way

about skree... *shrugs*
trolls are annoying but we need them, their the bandits, the Mongolian hoards, the criminals, the reason we build up walls... i mean how would a fantasy world look like without these?

[Skree]

Originally Posted by Traceur

i'm going to quote you on that in my "update the confusing FAQ" campaign

Plz do.

I've read some of your other posts.

You sir, are a poster with a clue. /salute

Skree

[Skree]

Originally Posted by F0rd

Yeah, definitely worth listening to.

You can always tell when you step into a nest of carebears.

SKree

[Skree]

Originally Posted by Aiten

Ahhh, everything I hate about the mega loyal FFA-PVP crowd is here.

PVP first.
Gameplay second.
Anything else not related to combat, irrelevant fluff.

You are a bit confused.

It's:
1. - PvP Gameplay 1st - FFA/PvP/Full Loot/No Safe Zones - me wants ballance, and nothing overpowered (stuns, roots, itemz ,etc..) I want you to have an equal chance to win when we fight. Cuz when we meet...there be a fight. And I want your best skill vs my best skill to determine the outcome.

2. - Definatly want a very, very robust economy with the best itemz player made. Cuz I want to be able to sell your loot. And I want to take your shit while you are hauling it between locations.

3. - resource harvesting should be dynamic with it's own set of tools and skills, equally as challenging as mob fighting , if not better. I'm thinking Ryzom "type" but more intresting for the harvester. There is where your mini-game belongs with the 1 world map. Not in some protected instance.

4. - same with crafting.

I absolutly want the harvesting, crafting and overall economy to be the very best, dynamic and challenging that has ever existed.

I want the guys in my guild who dig that to really enjoy themselves. And I want to atract that whole segment of the gamming market so I can kill them and take thier shit.

There is nothing irrelavent or fluffy about that. I want all you crafter, harvester, rp'r types to enjoy the hell out of the game, right up until I roll your ass and then I want to hear you squeel like pigs and send me tons of hate tells for hours.

Originally Posted by Aiten

(I'm interested in FFA PVP, but its not the be all and end all of the game, mostly because all MMO combat is the equivalent of Chlamydia, fun for a bit then you realise its a bit shit compared to pure combat games without the social focus)

That's your opinion. I never get tired of fighting. It's a new challenge every time. The diff is I want you to enjoy all the rest of the game. So much so that the times you scream with frustration and anger, cuz your loot just got took, are overshadowed by just how much fun all that crafting crap is for you. So you keep comming back for MOAR !

Skree

[Aiten]