Heavy armor and encumbrance

[Merconus]

It's true that people were a lot smaller on average in medieval times, so 70lbs would affect them a lot more than people today. Obviously some suits of plate were very heavy and restrictive, others not so much.

I think the ideas in this thread are very good ones, and with a little work in beta perhaps a good balance can be found between protection vs mobility and stamina loss.

I am interested to see how the wide variety of crafting materials affects the weight and restrictiveness of plate. I think this will provide the variety of plate similar to the historical suits. I think I read somewhere you could even control the thickness - so it will be possible to make heavy suits with very good protection and light ones with less, even using the same material.

Will the archer will have to guess whether the plate wearer has light or heavy plate on, or will it be obvious visually... could make things interesting.

[Natachi123]

Originally Posted by Merconus

It's true that people were a lot smaller on average in medieval times, so 70lbs would affect them a lot more than people today. Obviously some suits of plate were very heavy and restrictive, others not so much.

I think the ideas in this thread are very good ones, and with a little work in beta perhaps a good balance can be found between protection vs mobility and stamina loss.

I am interested to see how the wide variety of crafting materials affects the weight and restrictiveness of plate. I think this will provide the variety of plate similar to the historical suits. I think I read somewhere you could even control the thickness - so it will be possible to make heavy suits with very good protection and light ones with less, even using the same material.

Will the archer will have to guess whether the plate wearer has light or heavy plate on, or will it be obvious visually... could make things interesting.

It would even be interesting to see how indepth the creators go, depending on armor type will the archer have a wide array to choose from?

Like anything under chainmail will the archer use pointed arrows and for plate, he switches to a crossbow with blunt tips to cause impact trama?

I share Aest's concern about archers and magic users "kiting" melee characters. Wondering if they will have some temporary speed decrease while they reload/recover from casting a spell.

[Aest]

Originally Posted by Natachi123

I guess I can agree with you on stamina management. In this game, like in my hoplite thread, I just hope they let us mix up armor types to get varying amounts of speed versus defense.

As a melee connoisseur I do want to see some kind of end to this bunny hopping foolishness. Get some kind of realistic battlefield game going on. Because the basis for these debates on plate armor originate from bad experiences in other games. (a plated Mahirim circle-bouncing around in darkfall for 40-50 seconds did seem rather silly)

You have a unique armor piece for each hit box so in theory it is possible to mix and match armor types based on your play style. We'll have to wait and see if this is practical with the game's skill system. It will probably be more skill efficient to have all your armor pieces as the same type, and simply craft the thickness of each piece (which you will be able to do) based on your needs.

Since combat has been compared to Age of Chivalry I doubt circle strafing and bunny hoping will be useful for anything other than getting yourself killed.

[Deathach]

Originally Posted by Aest

You have a unique armor piece for each hit box so in theory it is possible to mix and match armor types based on your play style. We'll have to wait and see if this is practical with the game's skill system. It will probably be more skill efficient to have all your armor pieces as the same type, and simply craft the thickness of each piece (which you will be able to do) based on your needs.

It worked quite well for gladiators.

[utop]

Again and again this argument goes on lol, well along with all the great points, and some of the misconceptions about full plate that have come and gone there are a couple of things that i have not seen raised in any of these debates so far, and that is the fact that archers and casters alike will be wearing armor aswell so the average 60-70 pounds a full plate wearer has will be countered by

1) the fact the archer/caster is wearing most probably full leather armor with chainmail underneath and probably a full plate helm, which would weigh in at around 20-30 pounds and would also limit movement to an extent.

2) On top of that im guessing the stamina pool of your average caster and archer will be a lot less than a full plate wearer (this is assuming that str/con adjust stamina pool and that dex/int increses accuracy with spells and arrows) so in all it will balance out within a very close margin.

I'd also like to add archers were not just trained to fight with bows and certainly never KITED enemys around they would use thier bows whilst protected by ally foot soldiers or at range, but once the enemy was upon them they would revert to using thier bow as a melee weapon or drawing a short sword.

I'm hoping this game will bring a new era of gameplaying styles, with the old and rather dull kiting techniques of the past being left where they belong, in the past. A new age is dawning people embrace it like the warriors you are

Oh just read another post with a very good point the str required to use a longbow would be very high indeed, and would reflect penetration capabilitys forcing the best archers to split there points between dex for accuracy, str for pentration and int for aim, possibly luck if that is a stat in the game too. Meaning no archer would min max one skill to become a one shot winner they would have to sacrifice one or the other stat to improve the other. This in turn will make archers very versatile melee fighters too.

[Lunatic]

I've already posted this in another thread.

But as to the issue of "kitting".

A few questions remain for the melees complaining about it.

1. Why are you following somebody you can't catch up to?

2. Why aren't you behind some kind of cover? He can't shoot you if you're behind a large rock.

3. If he's running away and you won't make up the distance, why are you using a melee weapon rather than switching to a crossbow or using a ranged weapon on him?

4. Why aren't you using a shield to block the arrows?

I think people are expecting too much from just "Melee vs Range".

You have to look more into it than that. Yes, a ranger should be able to kill a two-handed sword user without that much issue, unless he gets very close. Why? Well, he's a close ranged person with no defence other than the armour on his back. He can't block arrows.

Yes, a large shield and sword use should be able to get close to a ranger without that much problem. Why? He's using a shield to block most of the arrows, eventually the archer is going to run out of stamina and be reduced to a walking pace, where the sword and shield user can sprint towards him and kill him in his weakened state.

You can't expect all weapons to preform the same against another person. Some weapons will be better at taking out other weapons. This is why there are more weapons in the game than one.

Adapt. Survive.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by Natachi123

As a history major at ISU I almost fell off my chair laughing. You are talking plated armor knights right? These guys COULDN'T even get on a horse full suited, nor could they get down. They had to have certain pieces reattached to enable them better movement because joint pieces actually DISABLED mobility and pivoted movement.

I am sorry you payed for an education that is skewed. What you learned about that is harshly incorrect. That or you didn't pay very much attention...
I have personally worn suits of armor recreated from medieval designs. Ranging from studded, chain, field plate, full plate, and high gothic. Full plate armor alone, as well as full plate with mail. From head to toe. Those suits were designed and made exactly as they would have been in history.
I am not the most nimble person in the world, but I was able to move, run, jump, mount a horse (after a couple failed attempts), joust, dismount on my own (again, after a couple failed attempts), compete in great sword combat tournaments, and point fighting. I didn't attempt it, but I feel strongly that I would have been able to do handstands, climb ladders, and all sorts of other things, had I tired.
I also was an apprentice blacksmith and armor smith for about 3 years when I lived in Virginia, so I have a pretty good idea of the designs and materials used.

Fully armored heavy mounted knights often had pieces added to their armor that helped deflect lances. Commonly found on their thighs and shield side shoulder. There were also gorgets that mounted over TOP of their suit of armor that purposely limited movement of the helmet to help reduce neck injuries and accidental impalings during jousts. This is likely where you get
the idea that they couldn't move. They did often require help to remove them, but they also did not wear them in combat, only in tournaments. I have to go to work so I don't have time to look it up, but I will find some info on it for you later.

Originally Posted by Natachi123

So again, I don't understand the part about them being able to do head stands and run, considering they would ride horses onto the battlefield so they wouldn't tire out, they couldn't even march.

No one is saying that they didn't tire. Of course they would. Wearing armor eventually gets exhausting. Even modern day soldiers need a break from the gear they carry from time to time (which is comparable in weight to medieval armor weight). Our modern soldiers are often transported by chopper, or APC's, why? not because they can't march, but because the idea is to get them to the fight as fresh as possible.
That however doesn't mean that those soldiers, modern or medieval, can't run, march, or do handstands.

Originally Posted by Natachi123

And if anyone saw Terry Shappert's doc
umentary on knights on the battlefield, if they got knocked over, they'd need their squire's assistance to get back up, otherwise enemy infantry would take blades to the soft groin, neck, armpit, and stomach areas to bleed them out. It is not about the weight of the armor, it is the fact that the armor prohibits proper knee, wrist, and elbow movement to maneuver themselves properly, so they require the help of others to perform certain tasks.

That can not possibly be more from the truth.
Maybe mass produced poorly designed and cheap armor that wasn't designed for the person wearing it, would restrict elbows, wrist and knees. But I have never personally worn a suit of armor that keeps you from using those joints. I very seriously doubt a noble born knight, with the money to buy and own a horse, and plate armor, would waste his money buying a suit that was not fitted to him...

Fully articulated gauntlets allow the same movement in your hands as not wearing anything. Also, the gauntlets did not rivet to the forearm, they were a free and seperate piece, sometimes tied on with leather or small chains. (if they were chained on, they would need help putting the gear on or taking it off, since you lose some finer aspects of grabbing things, just as you do when wearing thick wool mittens.)

Elbows, even with the thick armor I wore on shield side during jousting, was easily bendable. You lose MAYBE 5% of your range of motion, in that you can't completely straighten your arm, but by no means, enough that it would prevent you from getting off the ground.

Knees. Most plate suits had open rear knees, and almost all had open buttocks. It would be almost impossible to ride a horse or even sit down with plates on your ass. I can't actually think of a single suit from history (designed for combat) that had no openings on the rear end of back of the the knees. Anyway, knee joints, if properly fitted, hardly restrict movement at all.
I remember thinking how hard it would be to mount a horse the first time I tried jousting. but as I stepped from the block to mount the horse I realised that it wasn't as hard as I thought.
The trick wasn't bending, but more to get the momentum going to get up there, and not fall off the other side.

Originally Posted by Natachi123

I also don't understand how armor would add power to a swing, considering the regions covering the forearms and hands didn't add that much more weight. If anything his subsequent strikes afterwords would weaken due to fatigue.

mass + velocity = impact power
therefor, if you can swing more mass at the same speed that = more impact power.

most Gauntlets and bracers, and even most elbow joints and cuffs were made from 18-20 gauge steel, which is not that heavy. Exceptions, such as clamshell gauntlets, and jousting gaunts had heavy plates mounted over the base gauntlets when needed.
Anyway... if someone was strong and conditioned well enough to swing the weapon they had the mass of the armor behind their swing. strikes involved body movement other than just the arm. Which means a skilled warrior could easily use their entire body to "fling" the weight of their arm and weapon and at the last moment flex their arm muscles for a solid blow.
granted, even using body momentum, you would eventually fatiigue and your attacks would lose speed/power, but no one ever said they wouldn't.... at least not in this thread.

Originally Posted by Natachi123

So I think it is important we don't mix up fantasy with reality too much now. Plated guys risked way more then guys wearing generic leather and chain mail. It is because of the limiting movement hindrances of plate armor that full plate suits came and went. Instead people just wore plate torso's to protect the vitals.

Full plate armor "went" because of crossbows, and mostly, gunpowder entering the battlefield which made the more fatiuguing armor a poorer tradeoff, considering it no longer protected them. Whats the point of spending a fortune armoring someone if the other side can kill him with a 5 copper gunshot?

I can't believe they didn't teach you at college.... so where exactly is ISU? so we all know to steer clear of their history courses...


agh... late for work again...

[Garot]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

I am sorry you payed for an education that is skewed. What you learned about that is harshly incorrect. That or you didn't pay very much attention...

I have to agree with Thaeric's post almost completely. As an armorsmith for now 10 years, I can tell you from experience that armor made to fit is not going to have much movement restrictions. Any armorsmith of the time worth his salt would have made articulation his primary concern when making a set of fitted armor.

It would have been very rare to see full suits of plate cranked out in mass quantities. Plate breastplates, brigandine, and chainmaille would have been the "mass produced" armors of the time.

Now, as one who wears a set of metal armor for upwards of 6-8 hours in a day...I can also tell you that there are deminishing returns to the amount of armor you have on. The more you have, the less you can do. This can be attributed to movement hinderance and encumbrance over time. This is an unrefutable fact of nature...like Thaeric also stated, militaries like to get their soldiers to the front as fresh as possible so they don't tire as quickly.

Currently, when I am compltely kitted out my armor weighs in at around 80lbs. I weigh in at 240, so yeah 8 hours in that and your ready to toss it back on the armor dummy. I've ran in my armor before, done pushups also to prove it could be done. Sure it's not the most fun thing, but it's very doable!

[Aest]

Originally Posted by Garot

Currently, when I am compltely kitted out my armor weighs in at around 80lbs. I weigh in at 240, so yeah 8 hours in that and your ready to toss it back on the armor dummy. I've ran in my armor before, done pushups also to prove it could be done. Sure it's not the most fun thing, but it's very doable!

80lbs is a bit more than I would expect. Is this simply due to your size?

That is still only 1/3rd your body weight. Tiring, yes, but not immediately restrictive. I think we've debunked this myth.

[Garot]

That is fully kitted out. I can drop down to a light configuration that puts the armor in at around 55lbs. There is also alot of heavy leather involved in my armor, and that adds a good bit of weight as well.

Renaissance armor usually didn't weigh in more than 60lbs normally. The helmet was just about the heaviest part, with a great helm weighing in at around 10lbs (sometimes more).

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by Garot

That is fully kitted out. I can drop down to a light configuration that puts the armor in at around 55lbs. There is also alot of heavy leather involved in my armor, and that adds a good bit of weight as well.

Renaissance armor usually didn't weigh in more than 60lbs normally. The helmet was just about the heaviest part, with a great helm weighing in at around 10lbs (sometimes more).

Leather armor can be heavier than plate because of the thickness difference.

Granted there are a lot of variables involved, but you can safely say that leather can be heavier than plate at times and in certain situations. So whilehis suit is about 20 poundsheavier than the average plate armor, its understandable because of the leather. I Would also like to point out, during medieval ages, most men were not 6'0" tall, however, a large number of the people who I have created suits for were 6feet or at least very close. This adds to the weight slightly, obviously.

Also, types of rivets, fasteners, and padding plays a role as well. While not a huge role alone, it all can add up.
Today, modern suits used in combat such as the SCA or Adrian Empire involve very thick and sometimes heavy padding, especially in the helmet. Also, most modern events and groups require helmets to be made of 16 gauge, or if worked on an anvil horn for a shaped crown, 14gauge.
Medieval suits often had just a thin gambeson, or a light layer of leather under most suits. Also, there were no "restrictions" or requirements on metal thickness.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by Aest

I think you are confusing jousting armor with combat armor. Jousting armor was both extremely heavy and restrictive as it was purpose-built for the sport of jousting and in no way intended for battle. Armor made for combat is an entirely different matter. The joints are designed to maximize movement while still offering good protection. Claiming that a plate-wearer is so restricted as to be unable to get up off his back without aid is ludicrous. If this were true no one would have worn such armor into battle as it would have been impossible to fight effectively even from horseback (which requires a great deal of maneuverability above the waste). A plate-wearer is vulnerable in the joints because there is space there to allow for movement.

Push-ups in full plate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTo97...eature=related

An all out brawl in full plate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOM...eature=related

All very good points.

Also don't forget to add that jousting armor was often completely open in the back to reduce weight, aside from necessary pieces and counter balance.


Also, another thing to remember, mr. ISU said-so, is that many tournaments allowed for combat AFTER a knight was dismounted. There are of course jousting tournaments where this was not so, but the fact that any existed shows, plainly, that combat, and getting up from falling in plate is possible.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by Lunatic

You can't expect all weapons to preform the same against another person. Some weapons will be better at taking out other weapons. This is why there are more weapons in the game than one.

Adapt. Survive.

Your exactly right. And that is now my new sig.

[Enaw]

From the way I'm reading the reviews, it seems as though you will have a lot of attributes to give to your character at creation, and then I assume, these attributes will be/can be increased through other things.

They specifically mentioned body size in the review, but I would have to imagine that strength, speed, etc, will all be some of the attributes we can manipulate. There will be a hard cap on skill points and attribute points (at least that's what I get from reading about the skill system). So your player will only be able to be so fast and so strong at the same time.

So in a way, I'm sure that to have enough strength to wear plate armor without it drastically killing your stamina, you will have to give up speed and other attributes.

[yabooer]

been out for a while practice band practice and what not trying to get better faster and soloing (tired of being rhythm).

But anyways can't believe my thread still thrives, someone update me I really wouldn't like to read all of this.