Legendary Monsters

[Mirth]

Well, if i'd be one, i won't - 'cause i don't need it. I need a mountain of things - as a human. But my current needs are not dragon's - so if i'd be a dragon, i won't have such needs and ambitions. If i don't need to buy anything - i don't need gold. If i'm resistant to magic - then amulets, pendants and rare magic ingridients are merely trash for me. If i am myself is the best weapon i've ever seen - i won't need any weapons (first of all, there is nothing to match my size).
Though, theoretically, i may have a quarrel with human race if i eat their cattle, but even if i eat a dozen cows per day, it's not worth equipping an epic battlemage to fight me.

Look, as a dragon, I:
1. Definitely not an easy target in any sense. In the matter of fact, my power is equal for an entire army (including it's warlocks) of a small (let's be modest) kingdom.
2. There is no profit in killing me - i hold nothing of value.
3. I do not cause enough damage for an army to be sent against me.
So why bother?

Well if we're talking about dragons here, in most myths about them they do usually hoard large amounts of gold and magic items. It's almost like they want puny humans to come and challenge them for the hoard.

In SOME myths they were, yes. And in almost of those myths they were killed by a single man (not without help of others, but efficiently alone). So if there are epic beasts, they are to be either totally invulnerable or possible to kill solo. That's all i mean and all i ask.

Sebastian, maybe you can tell this to others and convince them somehow? You can use a horde of monsters for a raid, single ones are not necessary.

[Shinzon]

Their uses as they are magical by nature would obviously be for reagents, and crafting those same magical trinkets that were used to slay them in the first place. For humans killing a dragon is either a rite of passage for a prince of some sort; status and honor; proving ones might. Basicly recognition of fellow humans...

So there are plenty of reasons to kill a dragon past their immideate use as a carcass...

Because of this the Dragon would be hostile to humanity, and would generaly kill any on sight...

[Mirth]

How can you grind to a powder a scale that sustains heat of the volcano, also flexible enough to be a part of armor? And 'cause it's a scale, not a piece of hide, it won't degrade over time until it loses it's value as a protective object.
Well, IF you could pull it off before then you could maybe make a good shield of it. Light, strong, durable, almost immune to fire... but it's immunity is a bit overrated. After all, it's just a shield, not a complete cover like dragon himself.
So if you will be able to tear a scale off the dragon, it will require very teidious work with very expensive tools (a regular steel won't be able to shape a dragon's scale), performed by very skilled smith, and in the end you will have a regular tower shield. Yes, it's light, but it also means that you will have to rely more on your physical strengh, 'cause weight wouldn't make it hard to bash away - unlike a regular tower shield. Yes, it's pretty strong and durable - but not many shields end up shattered (their owners shatter way more often). And - yes, it's fireproof, but it doesn't mean that a flaming sticky liquid cannot flow on it's surface and thus reach a wielder's hand. So the actual worth of this shield as a tool for fighting won't be enough to hunt such a dangerous creature as dragon. That's one no.
Then, how do you make a reagent of a fang that bathes in boiling acid? Or napalm? Again, it will require work of an exceptionally skilled mage-alchemist, but he won't be himself if he really needed such an ingridient OR money that could be gained by selling it. So fangs are also a questionable issue.
Claws - yes, no doubt they are at lease as strong as scales. But they are also a lot heavier than steel (or else dragon won't be able to dig a lair, and, if he is really intelligent, he will prefer to extend his lair than to choose a new one. So if he's intelligent, his claws are heavy) and - again, require an immense amount of work from an excellent craftsman. For a very questionable reason.

What else can be used? His tissue? Who said that dragons' biology is the same as of regular reptiles? He must be silicon-organic creature to breathe fire, and thus his tissue is extremely poisonous, 'cause if carbon-based organic can exist on the oxygen solvent, for silicon-based organic you need fluorine. You can not even breathe safely near it, leave alone touching. Or holding with bare hands.
Then, maybe, eyes? Yes, they may be of real use. Theoretically. Because the solid earth creates much better jewels than the organic life, regardless of an element it's based on.

So the value of dragon as a source of valuable ingridients is... questionable, at best. And, given the rarity of the dragons, their sheer power and intelligence - there's just no sense in hunting them. Even if the eyes are jewels more precious than emeralds and diamonds, that difference is not much compared to rarity and difficulty of obtaining.

So i don't think that, if dragons always were such beings as described, humans would develop any interest in them at all. As for emotions... awe and maybe fear - yes, but nothing else. They just occupy another niche.



As for rites of passage... leave it to fairy tales, not fantasy. An average king (and maybe an average emperor) won't waste so much funds for so dubious reasons (and a lesser king (let alone princes) won't even have enough money to hire and equip a raiding party), when there's plenty of other candidates. Basilisks, manticores, amphysbenae, beholders... i could continue forever.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Dragons collect gold because it is shiny! And Dragons have swords around to use as toothpicks! Dragons have amulets and rings from the idiot humans that attempted to kill them. They were misplaced throughout the cave but after some spring cleaning they are just pushed into a pile with all of the other sparkly stuff!

This is my theory, and therefore it is fact!

[Mirth]

Troll harder, i beg of you
Or point me at my mistakes, i'd be happy to talk about them with you

[Shinzon]

Alright Mirth you are on *cracks knuckles*

Like all things; no substance is perfect; hense it can be destroyed or altered chemicaly; stone is cracked and destroyed by salt, and dissolved by acidic water; metals oxodize turning into a rust.

Scales, even if they are temperature resistant there are still ways to cut them be it chemical or magical in nature, and the same goes for every part of the dragon. Today we handle something alot more dangerious than fumes exhumed by dead creatures, we handle viruses and bacteria the very cause of disease, so it is safe to say that a clever alchemist, mage, warrior, knight saw that people were dropping around the dragon when they opened the thing up when they breate and covered their nose with something...

Since dragons breathe fire, it is safe to say that they must have some sort of an organ that produces a flammable gas, and another organ that generates an electric spark; or some other chemical reaciton in order to ignite the said gas. It is not impossible to imagine the following: That organ is extracted, and with a joint venture between necromany, holy magic, and alchemy that organ is kept alive and through some sort of a magical power source continues to generate the gas; so it is possible to fashion a weapon out of this organ...

Other parts of the dragon might be the reason for its magical resistance, or the very composition of the dragon is the reason it is resistant, so it is possible to study that composition and produce similar materials that are are based upon the dragon scale composition, hence forming resistant armors without the need to cut a single scale into shape.

It is all about finding creative uses of the said Dragon; just because we cannot think of a use for a carcass doesn't mean there isn't any, take a look at the native people of north america as an example; when hunting, not a single thing from the animal is wasted; everything is put to use, from sking to fat to bones; everything is processed and turned into usable goods...

[Mirth]

Like all things; no substance is perfect; hense it can be destroyed or altered chemicaly; stone is cracked and destroyed by salt, and dissolved by acidic water; metals oxodize turning into a rust.

Granted. I'd be an idiot to argue on this

Scales, even if they are temperature resistant there are still ways to cut them be it chemical or magical in nature, and the same goes for every part of the dragon. Today we handle something alot more dangerious than fumes exhumed by dead creatures, we handle viruses and bacteria the very cause of disease, so it is safe to say that a clever alchemist, mage, warrior, knight saw that people were dropping around the dragon when they opened the thing up when they breate and covered their nose with something...

Well, as for fluorine mixed in gases, prolonged skin contact is enough for poisoning. It won't show up immediately, and fantasy medicine is mostly kind of medieval - there's no trick to figure out the exact cause of some strange disease and its source. And minor fluorine poisoning is exactly such a disease - it's not of organic nature, so it can't be cured by some magic/holy powers developed to treat a regular viral or bacterial infection, 'cause there's simply no virus to be killed, it's the whole system slowly shutting down. So technically, it's poisoning, but it looks exactly as disease.
Therefore i presume it will look like some sort of curse, and with passing of time it will be obvious that everyone who touched a dead dragon died a very, VERY unpleasant death. Such belief will develop way faster than any means of preventing or curing this effect. It's just common psychology.

Since dragons breathe fire, it is safe to say that they must have some sort of an organ that produces a flammable gas, and another organ that generates an electric spark; or some other chemical reaciton in order to ignite the said gas. It is not impossible to imagine the following: That organ is extracted, and with a joint venture between necromany, holy magic, and alchemy that organ is kept alive and through some sort of a magical power source continues to generate the gas; so it is possible to fashion a weapon out of this organ...

Yes, but:
1. If the ability to breath fire lies in the magic nature of the body - we need to remember that dragons are resistant to magic. So in order to maintain life functioning you will need to constantly overcome magic resistance, because if you will just break the whole structure, it won't work anymore and be just a piece of extremely poisonous meat. This way it won't be worth the trouble - it's much easier to make and use an oil-based magical-mechanic flamethrower.
2. If this ability lies in the magic nature of the mind - no necromancy and no minor divine intervention will do any good.

Other parts of the dragon might be the reason for its magical resistance, or the very composition of the dragon is the reason it is resistant, so it is possible to study that composition and produce similar materials that are are based upon the dragon scale composition, hence forming resistant armors without the need to cut a single scale into shape.

Yes, but to develop such interest, you need to be a species that suddenly met dragons at the peak of scientific evolution (regardless of nature). It must be either space-faring civilization, percieved the mystery of energies or some kind of dimension-faring magical tribe which do not have more vital interests.



Generally, i only want to say that even where is a possibility - there is no profit. If you could make a profit from dragons - they will, being intelligent, turn in into a feature. If you can make an unpenetrable shield from your cut nails - you will do that or at least consider this possibility and turn your attention to it when needed.
So higher the value, lower the chances. And they are extremely low from the start.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Mirth

Troll harder, i beg of you
Or point me at my mistakes, i'd be happy to talk about them with you

Hey, I thought that I was making a solid point as to why dragons may have gold or items. And even if I was trolling, I do think that I did a good job of it, lol

Originally Posted by Mirth

Therefore i presume it will look like some sort of curse, and with passing of time it will be obvious that everyone who touched a dead dragon died a very, VERY unpleasant death. Such belief will develop way faster than any means of preventing or curing this effect. It's just common psychology.

And it's a good thing that we can be resurrected, isn't it?

Now whether we can slay a Dragon (or any other creature) on our own doesn't concern me really. I'd prefer a system such as the one I posted earlier myself. And I really dont' know where I was going with this as I am drunk and it's almost 4am.... But hopefully someone can pick up where I left off, lol. All I'm sure of is that the presence of these unique beasts scares the hell out of me and I'd much prefer a system as I stated in an earlier post.

You know that I'm not fighting your theory that a dragon should be soloable, you've done a great job debating that, but my argument is simply that there shouldn't be any amazingly overpowered takes 10 people to kill epic creatures to begin with. Anyways, considering that it's listed in the FAQ that there will be such things I guess I"m just out of line so I'm just going to hit 'submit reply' and watch a movie and go to bed.

[Mirth]

Arxon Havenloft, you'll be suprised that i, too, want these epic monsters out of the setting...

[Sorjak]

You have great points, Mirth, and i'm inclined to agree with you on most all of them.

However, i think you're focusing too much on too few things to seriously argue that an epic monster wouldn't be worth the risk.

For example: Why even kill the dragon in the first place? I don't know if any of you have read A Wizard of Earthsea, but basically there's a mage in there that studies for years about a giant epic dragon that lays wastes to whole islands. He studies and studies, until finally he finds out the name of the dragon. Using the name, he forces the dragon to do his bidding, getting information and oaths from him. I can imagine epic mobs that, through solo ability and ingenuity, are more than just founts of material goods. They are probably ancient and knowledgeable, and by defeating them, you can also learn from them.

[Torgrim]

There are gazzillion different legendary monsters to pick from the worlds different mythology, like Greek, Chinese, Nordic ect.

So just go to your nearest library and start reading

[Traceur]

what if legendary monsters where just part of the world's ecology? ..not so legendary in the game itself, just normal day to day animals that eat upon other animals and get eaten by other animals - where humans can end up on both ends... or maybe not? maybe they have a set diet and leave us alone as long as we don't enter their territory? possibly they can have some playable species in their diet but not others?

and they would have their own life cycles... so just kill this winged lizard before it grows up to be a dragon while you can still stomp in it, will you?

[The Last Spartan]

Originally Posted by Sorjak

Why not be able to solo epic creatures? These things would be extremely intelligent, yes, maybe even dev controlled. But maybe there's a player out there who's even smarter. Maybe he's read up on everything about this creature for months, planning and perfecting his attack. Maybe he knows that there'll be an eclipse on such and such day, and he tricks whatever it is into looking directly at it, and combines that with an avalanche or something. What i'm saying is, yes i absolutely agree that no single person could ever go toe to toe with one of these things, but if the world is truly a sandbox, there's no reason why we can't outsmart these things. Knowledge is power, guys.

Which is why i'll be a mage

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Aaah... Good to see a brother mage out there

Brethern!Rejoice! More Mages.

Anyway, what if I launch myself at the Dragon from the top of the ceiling and cast magic like Hell.

Think of a Mage, clad in Battle Robes with his wand/stand/hands outstretched and Lightning flying out of it.

Now, assuming my Stamina and Magic are tied, this attack (assuming that you can cast ANY spell at any level, it'll just drain you to Hell) is uber, and it's my own Soul being tied into it. Why can't I kill the Dragon like that, but I'll be burnt out for x amount of time, being able to crawl only. I could take the Magical Experience the Dragon had, and takes it's scales (not that hard to slice it up) and maybe transport the body to a shrinking trunk I have in my home/camp, before teleporting to an Inn/Hospice where I collapse..?

I want to be able to do basically almost anything, anyway...

[The Last Spartan]

Originally Posted by Sorjak

You have great points, Mirth, and i'm inclined to agree with you on most all of them.

However, i think you're focusing too much on too few things to seriously argue that an epic monster wouldn't be worth the risk.

For example: Why even kill the dragon in the first place? I don't know if any of you have read A Wizard of Earthsea, but basically there's a mage in there that studies for years about a giant epic dragon that lays wastes to whole islands. He studies and studies, until finally he finds out the name of the dragon. Using the name, he forces the dragon to do his bidding, getting information and oaths from him. I can imagine epic mobs that, through solo ability and ingenuity, are more than just founts of material goods. They are probably ancient and knowledgeable, and by defeating them, you can also learn from them.

So like in Grand Theft Auto IV, you can choose to execute the Dragon or allow it to live.

You'd have to treat it well though, or it'd turn on you..I don't mean as a Pet, I mean as an NPC who stays in it's lair/home, teaching you whatever it can.

[Mirth]

*disgusted* Meh. Developing a magic system myself, I never thought about magic so... casually... Kill an intelligent magical beast that's itself older than human civilization (imagine it's expirience, power and wisdom! But you never will. Pity...) - just like that. And gain some "magical expirience" that you even cannot describe in general. I won't even argue with this... i just can't be serious with such degree of casuality with only "supply and demand" principle.

[The Last Spartan]

Eh, I think you misunderstood me..Magical Experience in the way that you suck the Magic out of him..Can't even give you some examples right now, but a siphoning ability (assuming you can). Never said it was a great idea, just throwing it out there..

[Landor]

Ah Mith, I would like you ask you when was the last time you took chem, or bio for that matter? As you should know. Every living thing is carbon based, we have yet to find something that is alive that isn't carbon based. The only thing that we have found in life that is different from us, is that there is some live that can breath sulfer, but not oxygen.

The reason why live is only carbon base is because carbon is the only atom that can make 4 bonds. All the others make 3 or less bonds.

[Shinzon]

Silicone can make 4 bonds as well it is in the same column...

Killing a dragon... I could see many uses for his body depending on the lore of the game, biology of the dragon, and my personal magic allignment...

Maybe I want to let his body rot, but use his soul? Maybe I want his internal organs... Maybe his kidney stones make excellent magic crystals... Get creative

[OMGPIE]

I would make armor from the dragon scales and teeth/horns because that is cool.

[kelthazan]

Didnt they say that the Legendary Peeps that only show up once will be played by GMs when the monsters show up? Id Like to see some thing like a King Hydra (Larger then normal hydras and a hell of a lot stronger) Or maybe groups like you have to kill the leaders of some evil empire. Im more excited about what we'll get from them then the monsters themselves! They allso said there will be events like that too, sinking islands, temples and what not...Eee Im so excited.

[Landor]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Silicone can make 4 bonds as well it is in the same column...

Silicon is in the same column but I don't think it can make 3sP hybrid orbitals with its electrons. Which is what carbon is able to do. Hence why it has a strong bond. But the bonds in silicon aren't as strong as carbon, hence it takes less engery to break the bonds, and hence why you can't have lifeforms with silicon.

[Traceur]

you know, i think the question has come up in every tabletop roleplaying group since the dawn of... well, tabletop roleplaying: how would dragon meat taste?

[Landor]

I think it would taste like Chicken. As everything taste like chicken.

[Traceur]

shrimps doesn't taste like chicken. maybe dragons taste like shrimps?

[admiralnlson]

Dragons are reptiles, but they have bat wings. So they could taste like a mix of crocodile and bat. ^^