Mounted Ranged Combat

[Metamior]

Hey so I can see an effective tactic in the game being charging towards your target on horseback and getting one (maybe two) strong ranged attacks off before switching weapons and engaging in mounted melee combat. Will there be weapons such as throwable spears one can use to fight this way, and will we be able to use them on a mount? Also i'm wondering, people have been talking a lot about how they want to have multiple weapon sets in combat. Will we be able to switch weapons in combat effectively, even on horseback? And does the damage of ranged weapons increase when someone's on horseback or is that only melee weapons?

This is my first post and I was wondering if anyone has any answers to my questions or any thoughts? Thanks

[Merciless]

I really hope not, because unless someone who is on foot has a bow or decent ranged attack, they will invariably by kited to death, unable to catch up to their attacker.

[Tylerx]

I wouldnt think it does... i mean, why would it increase damage? if anything be less accurate, because come on... shooting arrows off the back of a moving mount? thats hard

[Merciless]

Originally Posted by Tylerx

I wouldnt think it does... i mean, why would it increase damage? if anything be less accurate, because come on... shooting arrows off the back of a moving mount? thats hard

Implement the tactic I use in Mount and Blade. Ride just outside of melee range and fire arrow after arrow as you ride by. They die easily and you are never touched.

[Skandranan]

Originally Posted by Merciless

I really hope not, because unless someone who is on foot has a bow or decent ranged attack, they will invariably by kited to death, unable to catch up to their attacker.

Realistically this is how it should be. Someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger whose only ever trained with some big honkin' axe should be at a disadvantage against a mounted archer due to limited range and maneuverability. This is something that should be taken into account before you go out to kill people.

Anyway, the damage of ranged weapons should increase as well as melee weapons. It was proven in an episode of Myth Busters that an arrow fired from a mounted archer at full sprint has deeper penetration than an arrow fired from a stationary person.

[Durin]

Originally Posted by Skandranan

It was proven in an episode of Myth Busters

There's no need to prove it, its plain physics, but not necessarily inherent in the game physics.

Originally Posted by Merciless

I really hope not, because unless someone who is on foot has a bow or decent ranged attack, they will invariably by kited to death, unable to catch up to their attacker.

Well, mounted range attacks are in, and we'll probably have to wait for the pre-pay beta to see how effective they are.

[Merciless]

Originally Posted by Skandranan

Realistically this is how it should be.

Then put in realistic damage and perma death, as well as gradual character decay.

The amount of realism for a game to be fun, and the amount of realism for a game to be so annoying to the point where no one will play... It's just something that needs to be watched.

[Lariphetheus]

When you fire off a bow, from horseback strategically your horse gives you a Advantage, But your also going to have more difficulty hitting foot archers who can naturally move between obstacles or anything of that such. And your horse is also a large target to enemy archers because of your advantage.

Your horse will definatly improve your fighting but it can also be a huge disadvantage if you have put large amounts of money into its armour and its purchase and also if you base your fighting off horseback and lose it.

As for equipment switching nothing is really final, even whats within beta as we speak. Check the beta-releases from the Dev's for that info. Though I would assume that with enough skill using a bow as you rush into a fight then switching to lets say. . .sword and board should work fine.

[Lariphetheus]

Originally Posted by Merciless

Implement the tactic I use in Mount and Blade. Ride just outside of melee range and fire arrow after arrow as you ride by. They die easily and you are never touched.

Thats assuming they don't use a bow and shoot your horse down. Then your in trouble with a "one tactic fighting style"

[Metamior]

Id think that being able to outrun people on horseback would be useful, albeit a bit cheap, not my style, but gl with that. i think it would be almost just as useful to have the extra force behind the ranged attack. Add that to an extra strong bow and you could take down extra heavily armored foes, which may be something thats a problem for ranged weapons users.

There's been a lot of talk about not being able to penetrate plate armor with some weaker bows, mats even confirmed that someone with a weaker, faster bow may not be able to penetrate plate armor if their bow isn't strong enough. Mounted shooting could be a good solution to still keep the faster, smaller bows and not get creamed by tanks. I think mats also said that you can only use the smaller bows on horseback anyways. Crossbows seem like they might be easier to shoot on horseback thinking about it (I wouldn't know) and they're supposed to be stronger just harder to reload? They even use metal bolts which are more penetrating then arrows. sounds perfect for my charging in strategy

[morkenhide]

Originally Posted by Durin

There's no need to prove it, its plain physics, but not necessarily inherent in the game physics.

I hope that physics are inherent to the game physics, despite how OP RL is. Then you ambush the rider with a spear to the horse and he's now on the ground. and since hes probably fully decced out to ride horses and shoot arrows, hes probably now not a very good toon anymore.

[Alyzar]

In the beta footage, the horse died fairly quickly. I'm sure a few arrows or a swipe of a sword would have that archer on the ground, and dazed.

Someone on a horse should have an advantage over someone on foot. Run to a place where the archer can't maneuver as easily, then roflpwn him by running circles around him while he attempts to turn on the clumsy horse. The beast will likely die fast, leaving him on the ground for you to slaughter with spells, melee, or archery of your own.

Trying to chase an archer on a horse in the middle of an open field is just plain stupid.

[Shaedys]

An archer can't use the same powerful bows he could dismounted as he could mounted, but he can escape faster.

[Lumathe]

Mounted archers tend towards smaller bows (often small horn-bows) rather than a longbow, crossbow or recurve, due partially to larger bows being unwieldly on a horse, partially to the problem of balance while drawing a larger bow at the same time as concentrating on staying in your saddle. These were generally used for skirmishing/ride-by style attacks, often involving a group of riders, rather than just one.

[gamon hogger]

only the short bow and the asymmetrical bow can be used on horseback, not the longbow. and the asymmetrical is hard to aim with.

[Lumathe]

[Merconus]

What others have posted about only being able to use smaller bows when mounted seems correct from what I have read, so heavy armour and a decent shield should make horse archers only an irritation, unless they have a well crafted recurve bow.

You could use a large crossbow from horseback, but reloading it might be difficult. Not sure what the biggest ones used historically were or how much penetration they had.

If someone decides to develop no ranged ability at all, then they will be at a disadvantage against anyone on a mount. Serves them right for being one dimensional.

Nobody has mentioned using magic from horseback either, that will add another dimension to things.

[Lumathe]

Originally Posted by Merconus

What others have posted about only being able to use smaller bows when mounted seems correct from what I have read, so heavy armour and a decent shield should make horse archers only an irritation, unless they have a well crafted recurve bow.

You could use a large crossbow from horseback, but reloading it might be difficult. Not sure what the biggest ones used historically were or how much penetration they had.

If someone decides to develop no ranged ability at all, then they will be at a disadvantage against anyone on a mount. Serves them right for being one dimensional.

Nobody has mentioned using magic from horseback either, that will add another dimension to things.

Reloading a crossbow from horseback is almost impossible, as you need a surface to push down against while cranking it (with a crank-case crossbow) or while pulling back the bowstring (simple crossbows). And I'm sure your horse wouldnt like the pressure with which you'd be pushing a piece of wood into it's back, on top of which you're moving, so you may end up slipping and dropping your crossbow entirely.

[gamon hogger]

Originally Posted by Merconus

What others have posted about only being able to use smaller bows when mounted seems correct from what I have read, so heavy armour and a decent shield should make horse archers only an irritation, unless they have a well crafted recurve bow.

seems like a recurve asymmetrical bow is the only good thing against a heavy armoured knight, and that requires great strength and is hard to aim.
that might be balanced enough.

also i think when crossbows are implanted that they are fairly useless on a mount because of reloading issues. better to take a javelin or something.

[Milkbeard]

Originally Posted by Skandranan

Realistically this is how it should be. Someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger whose only ever trained with some big honkin' axe should be at a disadvantage against a mounted archer due to limited range and maneuverability. This is something that should be taken into account before you go out to kill people.

Anyway, the damage of ranged weapons should increase as well as melee weapons. It was proven in an episode of Myth Busters that an arrow fired from a mounted archer at full sprint has deeper penetration than an arrow fired from a stationary person.

If you are walking towards your opponent, but since you are kiting I would assume you do reduced dammage as you tend to walk away from your target when your kiting.

[kulkan]

Originally Posted by Metamior

Will we be able to switch weapons in combat effectively, even on horseback?

OP, the devs have stated that you will have multiple slots in your inventory for weapon setups, with hotkeys assigned to each setup. I don't know how final that is and i can't remember where it is posted but i would assume you can set up dual wielding, ranged, shield and axe etc etc.

The changing is instant/almost instant as you swap them out straight away, but again, i don't know if this applies to mounted combat but i don't see why not.

[arathorn]

Anyway, the damage of ranged weapons should increase as well as melee weapons. It was proven in an episode of Myth Busters that an arrow fired from a mounted archer at full sprint has deeper penetration than an arrow fired from a stationary person.

oh yes?

isnt the speed of an arrow depending of the bow´s string?

[Doenny]

Let me share may experience with traditional archery and horsebackarchery. I have been practising both for a long time, and its really great kind of sport.

Little review of historical bows. We can say, based on historical basics, you have two kind of bows – recurve and long-flat (English longbow).
Recurve bow can by symmetric (mongol) and asymmetric (Japanese – where the upper syah-side is longer than the bottom).

What kind of bow were used on horse and why? On horse they were used always recurve bow or short bows because of simple fact, that you couldn’t handle the bow on horse cause his neck and you couldn’t use the whole drawing length, which was necessary to give devastating blow even through plate armor. The shooting radius on horseback was whole left side and front right side, cause youre holding bow with left hand mostly. And comparing ground melee with horse archery seems quite ridiculous to me. Of course horse archer has benefit, also swordman on horse again archer on ground, horse again horse fight seems quite fair, depends on other staff what soldiers have, shields etc. beautiful example could be seen in Mound and Blade.
Arrow velocity on horseback is faster than on ground cause you simply add the speed of horse to it.
Bows review and attributes in my opinion and experience, which could be implemented:
Short bow
Power: approx. 20£-50£ - higher means bigger, but needs more strength
Accuracy: good – means from ground
Distance: short
Reload time: fast
Usable on horse: yes
Long bow
Power: approx. 100£-180£
Accuracy: good
Distance: long
Reload time: longer
Usable on horse: no
Recurve symmetric bow
Power: approx. 40£-120£
Accuracy: good
Distance: long
Reload time: fast
Usable on horse: yes
Reload time: fast
Usable on horse: yes
Recurve asymmetric bow
Power: approx. 40£-140£
Accuracy: worse
Distance: long
Reload time: fast
Usable on horse: yes
Reload time: fast
Usable on horse: yes
And mention crossbow on horse is really out of discussion, never was used, and if so, with so small size to easy load it, but power was like throw chewing gum into eyesJ
Generaly, if we compare these bows of same drawing weight, the recurve bow would be best choice – fast, deadly, usable on horse – that’s why Mongols conquered almost whole the world.

[Shinimas]

Originally Posted by morkenhide

I hope that physics are inherent to the game physics, despite how OP RL is. Then you ambush the rider with a spear to the horse and he's now on the ground. and since hes probably fully decced out to ride horses and shoot arrows, hes probably now not a very good toon anymore.

You know that there are also RL circumstances (physics and others) that would hinder your favorite playstyle? Bows that are affected by wind, get damaged by water, bows crack, horses freak out and don't obey commands, arrows deplete (no, can't wear 1000 arrows like you do in some games).

If everything will downgrade into horse and bow combat, due to inability to re-create real environment, the game won't be fun anymore, at least for me, though i'm sure many will agree.

[kagelupus]

I always wondered what makes some people so paranoid that a game will devolve into "do this because everyone else is and if you don't its a disadvantage." How hard an arrow hits is based on speed. It makes perfect sense for an arrow shot from a speeding horse to goes faster and hit harder than an arrow shot from a stationary position, if the horse-back arrow hits anything.

If you just pick up a bow with no skill in it and try to shoot an arrow , the chances of hitting anything are slim. Now imagine doing that with a moving target. Even harder. Now try it against a moving target, while you are steering a horse with your knees. What makes anyone think that this ability could be unfair? If someone wants to sink a bunch of time and skills so they can do this, I say let them.

In certain cases a mounted archer will be a scary thing. If you've got leather armor, no shield, and get attacked on an open plain, chances are you're going to have a rough time of it. But change a few variables and things are much different. Heavier armor, even a small metal shield, and practice dodging will make that fight much less one-sided. Not to mention that MO is going to have plenty of terrain that a mounted archer would hate. Mountains, forests, marshland, anywhere that has decent cover or can impede a horses movement. And you can always stay in a city crafting or stealing.

[BlindMonkey]

Additionally that you can run down horse archers with your own light cavalry, or at least drive them off.

I wonder how effective it is to fire directly behind yourself (to shoot someone in pursuit) in MO...

Anyone got any RL information on how possible this is?

[Merconus]

Crossbows were used on horseback - do a little research and you will discover that fact.

Once ratchet and lever type loading mechanisms were invented it was possible to load and fire from horseback, even if the crossbows were not necessarily as powerful as those used by footmen.

Also the chinese cho-ko-nu, although not that powerful or accurate, would be a relatively easy weapon to use from horseback, since it was fired from the hip in practice.

In game terms, most mounted bows and crossbows would only be effective against light-medium armoured opponents. Anyone in decent heavy armour would be safe from all but the most powerful bows, and these could only be used onn foot for the most part. This seems to be backed up by the info about archery seen so far.

However it occurs to me that this game has mounts like rhinos and mammoths - so the usual rules do not necessarily apply. It might be possible to mount an arbalest or small ballista on the saddle of a mount like this. History shows elephants being used as archery and gunnery platforms, so this has a precedent.

[Bmw]

Originally Posted by Skandranan

Realistically this is how it should be. Someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger whose only ever trained with some big honkin' axe should be at a disadvantage against a mounted archer due to limited range and maneuverability. This is something that should be taken into account before you go out to kill people.

Anyway, the damage of ranged weapons should increase as well as melee weapons. It was proven in an episode of Myth Busters that an arrow fired from a mounted archer at full sprint has deeper penetration than an arrow fired from a stationary person.

Then i hope the tank has a casting axe that can hit the person on the horse and dissmount him and penetration the archer harder becose of the sprint into the axe.

[altsaxen]

Originally Posted by Bmw

Then i hope the tank has a casting axe that can hit the person on the horse and dissmount him and penetration the archer harder becose of the sprint into the axe.

Why throw away your weapon at someone when you can hide behind your shield from the arrows then dodge to the side and hack at the mount when passing by?

Also the mongols were most proficient because of their sudden attacks and withdrawals, making them unpredictable and giving them the advantage of surprise.

The most effective way to use ranged weapons on mounts is to keep a distance all the time. Charge in but not close enough to get in to a melee then sprint out of there and fire backwards while going (which ofcourse would give the arrow less speed).

The fact that the mongols could turn in their sadles and fire back at their pursuers pinning them down one aftehr the other gave them the posibility of a quick escape.

[Bmw]

Originally Posted by altsaxen

Why throw away your weapon at someone when you can hide behind your shield from the arrows then dodge to the side and hack at the mount when passing by?

Also the mongols were most proficient because of their sudden attacks and withdrawals, making them unpredictable and giving them the advantage of surprise.

The most effective way to use ranged weapons on mounts is to keep a distance all the time. Charge in but not close enough to get in to a melee then sprint out of there and fire backwards while going (which ofcourse would give the arrow less speed).

The fact that the mongols could turn in their sadles and fire back at their pursuers pinning them down one aftehr the other gave them the posibility of a quick escape.

Now you talking about vikings!

Then you will have a problem if the tank never gets to the archer.

[Vondrix]

Like others have said, you'll only be able to use a few specific type of bows for it, and you won't (shouldn't) be as powerful as you would be standing. I imagine it will require a lot of practice to do effectively; as you'll have to be proficient at riding mounts and proficient at Archery. Of course I/we don't know how difficult these things will be on their own, but I don't expect to see that many people using this tactic, especially early on in the game. Unless SV make this rather straightforward.

[altsaxen]

Originally Posted by Bmw

Now you talking about vikings!

Then you will have a problem if the tank never gets to the archer.

What are you talking about?

[sheldonap]

i dont care where you shoot me from shoot me from flying in the air for all i care.... as long as its not a 1 hit kill and you only have at most 30 arrows like a REAL archer would, hell i can hold my ground and use my shield till you run out of arrows just like i could if it was real,


if your running around without a sheild and only have a big 2hander your going to get picked off, thats if your not in supper heavy armor im talking about high quality hevay armor with a hard leather backing and a cloth under pading


and if you shoot off a horse move ata high speed you should all so have crappy hit when mounted

[Travie]

The ultimate kite

As long as aiming would be extremely difficult I dont see a problem with allowing it.

[Bmw]

Originally Posted by altsaxen

What are you talking about?

1.vikings where experts in suprising there victums.

2 if a archer sitting on the horse and shooting some arrows at the tank the tanks life will end until he gets to the archer.

[Mujahed]

He is dead until he reaches the archer? What?

[crikk23]

Originally Posted by Lariphetheus

When you fire off a bow, from horseback strategically your horse gives you a Advantage, But your also going to have more difficulty hitting foot archers who can naturally move between obstacles or anything of that such. And your horse is also a large target to enemy archers because of your advantage.

Your horse will definatly improve your fighting but it can also be a huge disadvantage if you have put large amounts of money into its armour and its purchase and also if you base your fighting off horseback and lose it.

As for equipment switching nothing is really final, even whats within beta as we speak. Check the beta-releases from the Dev's for that info. Though I would assume that with enough skill using a bow as you rush into a fight then switching to lets say. . .sword and board should work fine.

also getting hit by lets say a spear will running full speed at it would do more DMG to you,


and falling of horse going full speed can really mess u up.

not adding that trying to keep horse going right way will trying to guess ur shoots is really hard(i mean trying to hit moving target from a distance with how is hard now will your moving also makes that like 100x harder )

[Quanta]

I don't think the tank will have much to worry about when dealing with horse archers. I image in that horse archers won't be able to due much more than slightly dent plate armor. And if a tank has himself a decent crossbow the fight may very well be in the tanks favor.

If you are a meleer and choose to not use any ranged back up attacks you are going to be at a disadvantage in many scenarios, though I'd guess you would likely have some other advantage elsewhere.

PS, I did some quick reading of wiki and Merconus is right about there being some mounted crossbowmen. So I guess once they implement crossbows they very well may allow you to reload the lighter ones from horseback.

PPS, while we're on this topic, what are people's thoughts about casting spells while mounted.

[altsaxen]

Originally Posted by Bmw

1.vikings where experts in suprising there victums.

2 if a archer sitting on the horse and shooting some arrows at the tank the tanks life will end until he gets to the archer.

1. Ah yes that is true and not true. No one can hide a whole danish armada. The viking's way of fighting was much unlike the mongols I was talking about. Sure the viking warriors were ruthless and struck fast and hard. But they didn't withdraw in the same manner as the mongols. The vikings were ordered, fought with locked shields and spears thus gaining advatage over the poorly armoured brits.

The vikings weren't independent brawlers, they fought much like the hoplites in a phalanx. In many situations the Norwegians (this including Bohuslän) were outnumbered but thier dicipline won them the fight.

2. Haven't you understood yet that there won't be anything such as a regular tank???? This will be more balanced than that, you simply don't but one dude with a 2H sword up against an archer!