Racial Benefits and Differences

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Reclusiarch

Just a small +-10% on starting attributes along with a small special ability works with me.

A point or two of stat difference at the start would not bother me as we have the ability to raise and lower our stats anyways in game and in the mid-long run it wouldn't make any difference at all. I'd be okay with a special ability only if it were something such as the ability to speak your race's language right away.

But I would be against any kind of "immune to fear" or "+10 to alchemy" or "Racial only spell that will deal 1 shadow dmg".

[Mogar]

id rather see no racial benefits, in the past i see ppl only chosing the class because they offer a plus to wat they will be playin with instead of just being what they want, like so many have said before,ppl would just pick the most OP classes and roll with them. id like to see some Minjas(mini-ninjas) added to the game

[Phi]

I think its a little too soon talk about racial attributes since only one race is known but i am all for them. Think of the cat race in oblivion called the Kajit, since they are more cat like than human they have night vision. Depending on the races these sort of "percs" would defiantly vary but they should be just that, 'percs' for being that race, rather than an extreme advantage.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

A point or two of stat difference at the start would not bother me as we have the ability to raise and lower our stats anyways in game and in the mid-long run it wouldn't make any difference at all. I'd be okay with a special ability only if it were something such as the ability to speak your race's language right away.

But I would be against any kind of "immune to fear" or "+10 to alchemy" or "Racial only spell that will deal 1 shadow dmg".

So, assuming there are Gnomes and Ogres in the game, you feel that a Gnome that works out at the same rate as an Ogre should be equally as strong? Makes no sense to me.

No, racial differences, in game terms, should make sense. That's why I came up with ((BaseStat + Modifier) * Racial Adjustment) + Gear bonus

[lokius]

My guess is that there will be some racial visible diffrences, considering that whole paragraph on MO website considering half orcs. Lets point some most obvious ones:

The typical half orc inherit a strength and endurance which greatly surpass the same characteristics in an ordinary human...

Due to their size and robust bone structure the half orcs tend to be somewhat clumsy but compensate this with good reflexes, resulting in the fact that they rarely wear heavy armour.

The half orcs also share the orcs’ inability to understand, and fear of, magic and spells, something that can probably be traced back to the origins of the orc race. A few half orcs develop abilities resembling those of the orc shamans, but without guidance or tutoring these abilities seldom grow strong.

Though the text points some diffrences it also says that they apply to "most" or "typical half orcs", meaning there could be some exceptions. I like this kind of aproach, where porbably rolling a spell casting character will be possible but maybe harder than focusing on melee combat.

If you read the whole text u might also notice that thers a point about their healing rate, so considering they would prefer lighter armor its possible that playing with a typical half orc may differ a lot from a lets say heavily armored dwarf.

Though as i said this is only my wild guess and i might be also completly wrong.

[Freche]

Originally Posted by F0rd

What we've been saying is that dwarves' arms are shorter than elves' arms, and so it becomes PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to pull the bow back as far as an elf can, or reach as high, or swing their arm as far. It's not cultural differences that should be implemented, it's racial. Which just so happens to be why it's called a race, and not a culture.

But that dwarf could probably be using a smaller bow that require more strength to pull back the string. And on that way equals them.

It is still fantasy, and I have to agree on that someone that have been living most of his life with a different race than his own would be having similar "experience" (for lack of a better word) as the race that he has been living with.

Forcing people to pick a race is dumb and would lead to (as an example) that the only warriors that we ever see are orcs, the only mages are humans, archers are elves and smiths are dwarfs.

[Metal Wolf]

While having races differ by a bit and have a unique style is rather cool and I would support it. It would likely make balancing and playtesting a pain. So I don't expect to see more than minor stat differences.

[patamon]

maybe some little diferences in some profesions...like for example a half orc can not be a priest or a diference with jobs so the half orcks are not good in trading but they can still becom traders would get less experience and worser prises....
..

..or just let it be just diferences in some crafting styles like elves are good in juvelry half orcs are good in letherworking and dwarfs are good in mining....

[Lyllyth]

Stats affect Skills, if I am correct... If the core stats are affected by Race, then the Skills would be affected by Race.

That way, it would not be impossible for a certain race to pick up a skill that they are not normally inclined to use, but they may find it a bit more challenging.
One would also find that Orcs and other naturally strong races would have an easier time of Strength-based skills.

As for the Bow example... Having the strength to draw a bow string doesn't mean you'll be good with it, though it's a good start... Hand-Eye coordination is also needed. =)

[Freche]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

As for the Bow example... Having the strength to draw a bow string doesn't mean you'll be good with it, though it's a good start... Hand-Eye coordination is also needed. =)

But being able to pull back the string longer doesn't mean you are good with it either and that was why I quoted it. What I meant is that you can probably get the same power with the arrow if you are using a bow that got a design that needs to use more strength and shorter pullback as with a bow you use longer pullback and less strength. How good you are with the bow is ofc based on how much you have trained with it.

And to question patamon, who would play an half orc trader then if they can't get as good prices as if they where playing an human? Trading is more of how you can talk the buyer to buy the item for the price you want. You need to make the buyer belive that the ware is good (maybe even belive its better then it actually is) and that he realy needs it.
And trading should imo if any way limited to how good you are with the language (and possibly also skills related to trading) the person you sell something uses.

And why wouldn't a human be able to craft gems as good as a elf if he have been studied their crafting for several yearsor even lived amongs them ?

[Traceur]

IMO races should only have different skills if it relates to unique physical capabilities, for example claw-related combat techniques, wing-related flying/gliding styles, etc'.

though considering language skills, maybe some races have such unique language that other races can learn to understand them but never to speak them - for example if the race had a beak or something.

[KroqGar]

Originally Posted by Traceur

though considering language skills, maybe some races have such unique language that other races can learn to understand them but never to speak them - for example if the race had a beak or something.

I'd say more body language oriented languages would be difficult to learn. Things like pheromones and stuff like that would be next to impossible for races to change. However, understanding them would be simple. You could speak a language if a race has a beak, it would just be an odd language to understand and you'd have an odd accent while doing so.

[catmorbid]

I also agree that balance in the form of advantages countered by disadvantages, that seem realistic and not over-the-top is best. Lyllyth, your formulae for stat bonuses seems workable. The only problem being the multiplier, which can add some trouble when you're dealing with large enough multipliers (say, more than 150%) - and especially if you have a system where multiple multipliers apply, it can easily lead to a disaster... Anyway, I would personally prefer a fixed racial bonus instead of a multiplier, which applies both to starting values and potential values. However, this only works on a small scale, such as 1-100, but on large scale it's messed up.

[Helstun]

Greetings

AS far as the racial benefits go, here is my take on them. While playing other mmos, some of them having racial benefits, and others not, it seems that a new style of game play may be in need here. Instead of saying that race x is proficient in class y, why not let the community figure it out. Why does it have to be given to the community in stone to say orcs are naturally great warriors, but mediocre shamans? I believe that this is an aspect that few have given thought to.

As far as the true bonus' they do not have to be huge, but rather common sense perhaps? An orc or half giant would be stronger, but as smart as a human? Maybe? Better yet why not tie it into where you were born, hatched, summoned (ie demons) when your character is created. If you want to be a human mage, then perhaps you were born in the city that has magic as a dominant feature?

I do not want to see a random generation as to what you are proficient in, but it does seem fun for a bit. My only suggestions are 1) do not make it a if you play race x it is the best in class y. Make people take oppurtunity costs into consideration. 2) Make your background take effect of your character.

- Hel

[Arxon Havenloft]

It's all a matter of balance. Yes an Orc should be physically stronger than a Gnome and yes that Gnome should be much more agile and quick than that Orc. Does this mean that the Gnome should be able to run faster than the Orc? This would mean that the Gnome also gets to escape intense PvP or PvE situations much more easily, Or run back to town to bank his good much quicker. Gnomes would now be richer than Orcs because they would die less and travel faster.

What about in PvP? If Gnomes are faster runners then let's say they are ranged casters. Why not just throw a Damage over time spell on the Orc and just Run Run Run until the Orc dies? It's just not fair. I'd rather everyone be the same race with no choices then to choose my favorite race and be penalized for it day in and day out.

There is just no way to properly balance it. You can give them higher stats in the begining only if in the end both races are capable of getting the same maximum stat values. If you go too far with racial bonuses then you ruin the game before it even begins.

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

It's all a matter of balance. Yes an Orc should be physically stronger than a Gnome and yes that Gnome should be much more agile and quick than that Orc. Does this mean that the Gnome should be able to run faster than the Orc? This would mean that the Gnome also gets to escape intense PvP or PvE situations much more easily, Or run back to town to bank his good much quicker. Gnomes would now be richer than Orcs because they would die less and travel faster.

What about in PvP? If Gnomes are faster runners then let's say they are ranged casters. Why not just throw a Damage over time spell on the Orc and just Run Run Run until the Orc dies? It's just not fair. I'd rather everyone be the same race with no choices then to choose my favorite race and be penalized for it day in and day out.

There is just no way to properly balance it. You can give them higher stats in the begining only if in the end both races are capable of getting the same maximum stat values. If you go too far with racial bonuses then you ruin the game before it even begins.

And it's quite not like that either. Ok, let's consider that a gnome would in fact be able to outrun an orc. On the other hand, if the gnome would let himself get to close range, he'd be shredded to pieces in an instant.

Then again, I don't see why a gnome would be at all faster than an orc, in fact it seems most logical that a gnome would be physically so feeble that pretty much anyone could catch them - especially orcs who are a physically superior race, so to speak (I don't know why people think orcs should be slow... after all they're all-in for the physical action and by all reason they should be pretty fast as well).

But yeah, I understand your concern. The thing is that if you have to choose between variation and similarity, I will always choose variation. Having races which are simply just aesthetically different is the dumbest thing ever, imo. And it's due to mmo-complex of oversimplifying and lacking the skills to create a proper game. That's the reason why I honestly hope the races in MO will be significantly different. The key issue here is that they need to be different, but balanced in between their differences, so that you don't have an overpowered über-race that is clearly the choice for every player. Every race should have some weaknesses and some strengths, so that no one race suits for all play styles. And even those who decide to do something out-of-the-box should be able to come up with interesting concepts, rather and a "weak build". Even if a race would be clearly superior in abilities, they should have some other weakness that would clearly put them in balance. That's pretty much how DnD has done it, which is one thing I admit they did pretty well. The shameful thing is that in DnD race becomes rather insignificant the more levels you gain, so you pretty much lose all that balance between the races :/

I don't actually even know if any mmorpg has done this properly so far. All I know I've been playing and designing for PnP games for years now, and the balance between races has always been a tricky one, but eventually you can make it work, if you know what you're doing. Actually I think most devs intentionally avoid this kind of approach, because they know they will most likely fail at it

[Arxon Havenloft]

Well, the last thing that I want to see is one of our only 2 sandbox options fail over something so trivial as racial bonuses. I've yet to play a game where I enjoyed the racial bonuses. And UO being my favorite game, it obviously didn't have any bonuses. Even WoW screwed racial bonuses up. I could have 3x the power playing as an Undead Warlock instead of my main Gnome Warlock. Racial abilities such as cannibalism and fear immunity create that. In Shadowbane the character build was somewhat interesting, but in the end I don't really care for it because it puts too much on your shoulders before you even know anything about the game. I would hate to find that a stupid decision at character creation ruined any chance of my character's progression being worthwhile.

You can do things to define races without exactly making the stronger, or faster, etc.. You can make Orc only items in the game that don't have any difference in stats than other racial items but look great when worn on orcs, etc.. You can give them their own language, you can name certain abilities after certain races.. You don't have to imbalance the game.

Asking for racial benefits is literally asking for imbalances. It's the exact same thing. Asking for someone to be stronger, or faster, or any way superior is asking for an imbalance. Then you are left finding ways of balancing these imbalances that only sometimes work or often don't work for every situation. It's just not worth it.

[1reaver1]

Originally Posted by Damukag

How big do you think racial benefits and, by extension, differences should be? Do you think there should be very large unique benefits, offering skills/spells to each race that only that race can use and effectively changing playstyle from race to race? Should they be small and most trivial, meaning that most races were almost the same in terms of all but appearance and location? Somewhere in between?

Thanks for your input.

I think races should be rather different in thier skills. No SO different you wouldn't want to play one for any class, but it should really push you in a direction.

Also, If i know i am going to be a pure caster or melee, let me push miself in that direction from the start. Or i may be after pure attributes of some races. (i.e Drow/Dark elf. I know i want magic as pure as possible, but i want as much agility as possible when i wield something or evade. .....................................Or, I may want as many fighting skills as possible but wish to be attunded to magic as much as possible for healing spells and magic resists.

Hey a dwarf, lets go pound him. "What the hell, he is casting on us and he is a tough little bugger.".........."Good thing he wasn't a massive caster class, we would have gotten wiped. Wasn't expecting that at all. Normally those those little cusses roll melee class."

"Yeah, he could swing an axe prety good for a caster though. almost paniced for a sec when he switched styles on us."

Anyway, if you made it truely different but left it open enough to still roll anything, i could see rolling alts being alot more interesting. You basically have created sub-classes worth exploring.

[l0kkinen]

what's the point of having different races if there are no real differences between them. 1 race should be good in magic, while other should prefer melee combat and so on, kinda like an extension of classes.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Well in that case just make only one race then. Because I don't want to hear that I only won the fight because I'm a Dwarf, or some bullshit like that. I also don't want to feel any stronger or imbalanced because of my character selection. The different races for me are enjoyable because I can roleplay. That has little to do with anything skill/attribute related. I think roleplaying an orc when you look like a human would be rather odd, so yes, aesthetics do make the most difference.

I just think that racials are too hard to balance and out of the dozens of games that I've played I've yet to see it done well. So why would I want to see yet another game fail at it? Especially a game that I've waited years to come about.

[1reaver1]

i really don't see where having some race differences would be game breaking. If someone says you won because you are a dwarf, odds are they would blame it on something else if they didn't have that excuse. Everything is a balancing act and nothing would tip the scales as long as things are factored in small increments.

(If a dwarf makes you undefeatable and people complain, just suggest they take dwarf punting classes.)

Seriously though, if you find a balance you are good at and enjoy, more power to you. Games like this should be a balance of skill and the ability to make smart choices in developement of your character. Hopefully the days of having almost any combo and being successful will come to an end with this game. I have had many character maxed out and made obsurd spec changes just experimenting. Honestly all it does is change my casting sequence and slightly changes DPS. I'd personally like to see broader swings in my spec choices that change my character. For the most part it doesn't seem to matter most of he time what you choose, it is more a matter of style.

Hell, AoC i can play almost naked and switch stats to tank out my mage as much as possible and i take almost no hit to dps. (Legend of the naked mage....RAWR)

[1reaver1]

That comment does warrant some additional thought though. If gear adoesn't greatly alter things for you, don't expect much loot. Why would i be decked out if i can beat 80% of encounters why running around in the raw. It is a little off topic, but i hope stats count for something in this game. Otherwise when i come a calling you may just find someone standing over you sporting a third leg while looting you.

I am in no way saying break the game with equipement stats. But is stats make a difference on equipement, you should be seeing stats making a difference everywhere to a noticable degree.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by 1reaver1

I am in no way saying break the game with equipement stats. But is stats make a difference on equipement, you should be seeing stats making a difference everywhere to a noticable degree.

I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to win a good amount of fights naked. But say you have 100 hp.. A swing at you naked may do 30-40 dmg, where as a swing at you with gear may do around 15-30. So it's all a matter of how often you plan to get hit

Of course even naked you may want to consider a shield.

If each race were different then I could make a bad selection right from the start without even realizing it. I mean, I like Dwarves, they are my favorite race in these types of games... But if they don't make as good casters as Humans do, then the only way for me to fix that is to delete my character after figuring this out, and not be a Dwarf even if it is my favorite race. Either that or not be a caster. One of the things I like about skill-based games is that I can change up my build whenever I want. You cannot just change your race whenever you want. It wouldn't work. Unless they implemented some sort of plastic surgeon NPC that could do that for you. It just kills an entire part of the game that at least I enjoy.