Why permadeath is a nono

[Traceur]

veith - you answered your own post too - PD will naturally result & encourage much larger groups then just "people of a common interests". your not forced to join such groups, but not doing so would actually be a challenge, but most people would.

Arxon - the thing your trying to eliminate with your idea from PD - is exactly the one thing which PD adds to an MMO: a fear of death.

your trying to keep your attachment to your character indestructible - I'm trying to show you how by making it destructible, the attachment to your character can add to the game instead of being the game's whole point.

[Veith]

@Traceur to permadeath i must say, i need to play/test such a system for a RPG; if it will be not discouraging (so more a kind of masochistic way of gamelife ) then its ok.
I am still not be able for a good imagination a permadeath system could work in a RPG, in a MMOG without RP there ok.
But sure if im thinking closer, if any devs will design that feature combining it with their designed gameplay and it fits, then.... but it must be anyway then well-thought, not only every second the char was created he dies again.
Anyway a need for my gameundestanding for permadeath must not be, but if possible to be playable i will test it.
In a RPG i never played real perma death.

Also finally for me really more important possible and believable actions, the death itself is pure non-action, total emptyness

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

Arxon - the thing your trying to eliminate with your idea from PD - is exactly the one thing which PD adds to an MMO: a fear of death.

I don't see it that way. Most players I would assume would want to stick around the PD server for as long as they could. But, just like everyone else, they would die eventually. Nomatter what you do you cannot get that character back onto the PD server.. Nomatter what guild you were in, what plans you had for the next day, etc.. You are not getting back onto that server unless you create a new character. However, you didn't just lose your last 3 years of work. You now have a chance to start a new life with others in you same situation. Join a new guild, or find other guildmates that have also died off. And move on.

Originally Posted by Traceur

your trying to keep your attachment to your character indestructible - I'm trying to show you how by making it destructible, the attachment to your character can add to the game instead of being the game's whole point.

The game's whole point can't just be "stay alive" because that can't happen. Nomatter how careful you are, nomatter what precautions you take, you will die.. Probably relatively soon. In a PvP game most players die at least a few times an hour. If you avoid PvP alltogether and try to survive then you only turn yourself into a target. Eventually you will be caught.

Besides, attachment to my character is no longer a feature if Perma-Death was to be considered. I can only remain attached to it for as long as it lives. And living wouldn't be all too much fun either. Consistently begging for protection from people that probably could care less about you, striving to progress your character knowing it'll all be fruitless in the end. Just the thought of it makes me sick. A true PD system just doesn't belong in a MMORPG.. It's just too much to worry about, too much work, and not worth it in the end.

Just think about it.. 90% of the real world doesn't want to believe in Perma-Death. They all want to believe that they get to travel to another place be it heaven or hell or reincarnation. No one wants to die permanently. The funny thing is that in the real world, I'd actually prefer Perma-Death, lol. How backwards am I?

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Veith

But sure if im thinking closer, if any devs will design that feature combining it with their designed gameplay and it fits, then.... but it must be abyway then well-thought, not only every second the char was created he dies again.

with that i agree, PD can't be an afterthought... you can't just throw it in any game. but i just see so many things about MO which would make sense with PD - the etherworld, the channelers, the skill system, the FFA PvP... it's like they designed the game for it but didn't put the missing piece. even the name fits.

Originally Posted by Veith

In a RPG i never played real perma death.

in an MMORPG - nobody ever did as far as i know. but there's a first for everything.

Originally Posted by Veith

Also finally for me really more important possible and believable actions, the death itself is pure non-action, total emptyness

without death being a pure non-action, staying alive becomes a non-cause

[Arxon Havenloft]

Awe, you didn't even respond to me

I was actually wondering what I was missing.. I was thinking I'd hear something about making friends and not going to the bathroom without them, but there will always be a bigger, badder group that you cannot handle even with your friends. I was expecting to hear something about people wont PvP as much because they are scared of dying, but the last thing that you want in a PvP game is a reason not to PvP...

I'm just not seeing how the pros outweigh the cons here.. Other than the fact that it hasn't been done, I don't see a good reason to try it..

[Veith]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Awe, you didn't even respond to me

I was actually wondering what I was missing.. I was thinking I'd hear something about making friends and not going to the bathroom without them, but there will always be a bigger, badder group that you cannot handle even with your friends. I was expecting to hear something about people wont PvP as much because they are scared of dying, but the last thing that you want in a PvP game is a reason not to PvP...

I'm just not seeing how the pros outweigh the cons here.. Other than the fact that it hasn't been done, I don't see a good reason to try it..

Really Arxon, you wrote some posts above a suggestion for a kind of perma-death, but sure, never played, never tried. Perhaps it would be possible in such a way, but also its clear, then the MMOG would be splitted in different games, not only game-styles or possibilities, would be factly different games in one game. Seperating the community?
Also now i want to know devs will implement permadeath? Or its only a wish. Are there really plans for?
If; then thoughts about are not only improvisation of ideas then it must be really something could be able to function.

[Arxon Havenloft]

No, there aren't currently any plans for PD. It's just a debate.

I, myself, was just interested in getting a better understanding of where the PD advocates are coming from. I've tried to figure out the good things about such a system and even made a post in another PD related thread defending PD as well as I could, but even then the cons outweighed the pros.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I think that it has been explained quite well thus far in this thread already.. Even as an advocate against PD I can notice it's benefits. The lack of an End Game being the largest of them. Someone that joins the game 3 years down the road has the same opportunity to get ahead that you do, etc.. Also the economy would never get too flustered and the strength in player interaction and community would skyrocket.

I'm just trying to figure out why it's still being advocated for after I've come to that conclusion because normally I can see both sides of an argument clearly and I'm having trouble with that here.

[Traceur]

sorry, i answered veith and missed your post...

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I don't see it that way. Most players I would assume would want to stick around the PD server for as long as they could.

if that will be the case, then it will work. but I'm not sure it would, it's a gamble:
the only good reasons to stay in the PD sever is if that server is affected by fear of death. the only way fear of death will exist in your idea is if people want to stay in the PD server.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

The game's whole point can't just be "stay alive" because that can't happen. No matter how careful you are, no matter what precautions you take, you will die.. Probably relatively soon. In a PvP game most players die at least a few times an hour. If you avoid PvP altogether and try to survive then you only turn yourself into a target. Eventually you will be caught.

then go right ahead and take a 100-1000 resurrections - whatever magic number ends up giving you enough time to get attached and advance your character (testing testing & more testing).

but yes, it can be the game's main point: because it can be failed.

though just because there's PD doesn't mean it has to be the main point. quite the opposite - your main point is whatever you make it to be. remember: a PD game allows you to influence the world permanently. this means the main point can be to do whatever it is you want to do while playing. you can literally change the gaming world - influence other people, help build up civilizations, help people individually, help bring down civilizations and harm people individually, in ways which would otherwise simply not matter.

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Besides, attachment to my character is no longer a feature if Perma-Death was to be considered. I can only remain attached to it for as long as it lives. And living wouldn't be all too much fun either. Consistently begging for protection from people that probably could care less about you

begging? why would you beg? you can offer them as much protection as they can offer you (in the form of combat, crafted items, supplies, construction, anything you want).

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

striving to progress your character knowing it'll all be fruitless in the end. Just the thought of it makes me sick.

that's funny: you seem to be ok with fighting, crafting, helping people, harming people, building, exploring, etc', knowing that it's completely fruitless and won't affect anyone or anything.

those are the thoughts that make me sick

[Arxon Havenloft]

Hmm. That was a really good post.. That was why I wanted you to respond, heh.

Originally Posted by Traceur

that's funny: you seem to be ok with fighting, crafting, helping people, harming people, building, exploring, etc', knowing that it's completely fruitless and won't affect anyone or anything.

those are the thoughts that make me sick

I could argue that it wouldn't be fruitless, however you could use the same argument to explain that "striving to progress your character knowing it'll all be fruitless in the end" wouldn't be fruitless.

I guess one of the differences between us is that I am a very independent player. I like to do a great many things alone. I understand that it's a MMORPG and that player interaction is a must, but I prefer to choose when I interact. I may say hello to a passerby, or run into a new friend in a mining cave.. Find a guild that I appreciate or assist a new friend in a project. Though for the most part, I'm often times alone. Usually I prefer to do mining runs alone, no one wants to come and watch anyways and I'd prefer not to share the ore with other miners so why bring them, etc..

It just seems to me that PD would hurt solo play, and that's true and I understand it. I do love player interaction, but at the same time people can drive me up the wall as well.

Taking aside solo play, and an attachment to my character, there is little else that I can argue against PD. I don't exactly feel ok with the thought of paying a monthly fee for something when I never intend to experience the full content of the game. I kind of look at it as 10 months without dying means that when I do die it's $100 down the drain as well as time wasted but I chose to waste that time so I can live with that. It's like my time here in the real world. I don't really give a damn about it, but I choose to remain here so the fault is my own.

[Traceur]

on one hand it will make solo play a challenge - you'll need to survive on your own if you want to go out into the wilderness. and yes, less people will be willing to do that. you'd most likely still form tribes or gangs of bandits.

on the other hand it encourages very large guilds and player cities, and that sort of creates a new kind of pseudo-solo:
instead of guilds being a couple of dozens, they are at list a couple of 100's, maybe more. suddenly, you can be anonymous within a player city, doing your own thing. you can be part of the community without dwelling into the management & player politics. you can be a thief for example, and disappear into the crowd, or live as a crafter without being recruited to war with each attack.

but those examples are pseudo-solo, so yes does discourage real solo play, i agree with that, and it is why i listed PD as an element of the finale PtP level: depending upon civilization.

[Shinzon]

Again, you are all taking about the fucked up implementation of death that is in WoW; PD is about inforcing the ultimate penalty for death, it is to make you more carefull to make you plan more.

PD in the WoW sense as you talk about it, wouldn't hurt solo play, if anything I would find it alot more thrilling.

There is absolutley no need in PD in all other games or genres as the world essentialy "Resets" after the round is over.

In an MMO PD starts to make sense in the fact that it allows you to shape the world. What does "Shaping the World" mean? Let's take EVE as an example; as it is the best modern example of a player base that governs itself. There are giant corporation leaders, their influence spreads across entire systems, and let's say that guy is a prick, making life misrable for everyone. Wouldn't it be nice to take him out? Wouldn't it make the game better if this pathetic soul is gone, or atleast his power curbed somehow? Prolonged conflicts would be undersirable between two large guilds; as a slow but fatal "Skill Drain" will ensue; so the most powerfull guilds will not be the largest guilds that mass members, but the guild that ensured it's own survival first, it has members that have lived and survived to be veterans, not the guild of barbarians that slaughtered others and themselves along the way.

Large mega guilds are a problem, and this is a solution; take out their power members one by one, curbing the guild's power.

This is all about using death as meaningfull mechanic to curb power. There should be no concpet of "End Game", you play the game for the interactions that born and die due to the players themselves, not because there is an epic mob to grind yourself retarded. The "End Game" should consist of pure player and guild interaction; and that is content that will never dry up.

Here are some implementation of PD:

Cumlative - at the begning you revive as normal, but as you die more and more, your soul takes damage it becomes harder and harder to revive yourself, with longer "Respawn" times until finaly, your soul shatters on that fatefull revive and the charachter dies.

Layered - Death is a hard thing to attain, as in most cases you are knocked uncocious, and only with a concious decision can you take someone's life, and because of this, you can attach much more severe punishment, not just "Going Red"

Soul Transfer - Once charachter death occurs, the soul of that charachter can be transfered to a new one; essentialy a spiritual rebirth, but as punishment, you can only take a couple of your previous skills, either chosen by you, or the highest charachter individual skills (That means that deva wide skills do not count in this).

****

Mega Guilds are able to grow out of control like a cancer only because there is no real way of curbing their power. Power is defined by membership, and individual power can never be sapped, the charachters can never be impeeded, and it is theoritcaly possible to have a server consisting of charachters all at level cap. This is a problem, and the PD and the partial PD solutions I have presented up top solve that problem.

I like the Soul Transfer the most, as with this you don't waste your time, but you are still punished for death. Mind you the soul transfer and any of them can include any mix of the three, depending on the prefrence of implementation.

[Traceur]

i don't think you ever waste your time in a PD MMO game...
even if i lost all the skills & attributes, the affects of what you did in the world are there to stay.

and yes - PD can only work in a sandbox MMO. it won't make sense in any other kind of game other then an MMO, and since it encourages large cooperation of players, and theme park MMOs encourage solo play, it won't work for a themepark MMO ala WoW/EQ. .

[Arxon Havenloft]

I guess I would prefer the "Layered" Death in a PD game as I don't see the point of resurrection in a PD game or the idea of carrying skills with you..

I look at a PD game and a Non-PD game as two different game entirely.

A non PD game is the kind of game that I enjoy long term. Where I develop a character and become a part of the world. I have friends that I enjoy being around, and an in game life.. Like an in-game chat room of sorts where I can do anything that my imagination will allow me to do. I play for fun, the way I want to play..

A PD game is kind of like a war game of sorts. Consistent conflict between nations/guilds/gods, etc.. Enforcing player interaction as a must instead of a feature. Where the game isn't about sitting back and relaxing, taking in the atmosphere around you and just enjoying yourself, it's more about getting things accomplished while you still can. Living your one and only current life to its fullest.

Both games sound interesting.. It's just one seems to be more of a RPG while the other seems more like a PvP Battlefield MMO. And while the RPG would probably need a subscription based fee with consistent upgrading and implementations, the PvP MMO probably wouldn't require anything more than the box fee.

Also I feel that PD would kill a lot of the solo PvP action as well as make ganking the PvP Mainstream.

[Traceur]

wait, you think that a game where players have a lot more to loose is the one that will have the constant war?

an action MMO is a lot closer to the kind of MMORPG your talking about: in both you don't really care about dying. a PD MMORPG is one where you don't want your character to die - that's the whole point. neither current MMORPG's nor any "battlefield MMO" have that.

but you are right about the ability to solo. i wouldn't call it being forced grouping, but yes - it would be a challenge.

i agree that those 2 two completely different types of games, but not in the way your describing them.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Is the entire point of PD not to kill others and reset their character's power? I realize that it's risky.. But I thought that advocates of PD were willing to take those risks..

I just figure that it's pointless to do much else other than PvP in a PD realm.. The longer that you stay alive the more skilled of a fighter you then become. I expected it to be a bloodbath realm.

Where as a game that isn't PD has other things to do besides PvP. Such as crafting, Farming gold, getting a life in order. Building a home, etc.. Since you know that you wont lose everything the second you finish, you are more apt to do it.

I could be wrong, of course, but that's just my explanation of why I said what I said.

[Shinzon]

That is the entire point yes, and that point doesn't promote rampant killing, infact it promites a more discreete use of violence. As I said in my post the people that will fight the most will actualy be the weakest ones because they cannot retain power. While the peace centered guilds; or the more discreete ones are able to grow power of their membership without killing themselves.

Without PD, violence becomes a sport that guilds do "Just for the hell of it" at times. Full loot is a penality designed to get players more cautious, PD is also of the EXACT same nature as full loot, if you understand the purpouse of full loot, the implications of PD should be just as clear and of the same nature.

[Traceur]

very well said Shinzon

basically, one might say that PD is full loot for character skills

it comes down to this:

i want PD, not because I'm "hardcore" in any of the meanings.

i want PD because i want my actions to be meaningful in the only way they can be in the context of an MMO - meaningful to other players around me, friend & foe, and i want the strong sense of community i realize it would create.

[Traceur]

there is one other thing: everything i said until now applies to the game world i would enjoy playing in. but i must admit, i sort of doesn't apply to me:

i never enjoyed improving my character's levels or skills in any MMO to be honest - not really. the only reason i ever get to it is to be a potential competent ally to my fellow players. but alone - it is meaningless - having "bigger numbers" just doesn't do it to me, never did. i don't even understand why people find pleasure in it. for me that seems odd & tiring. and i am honestly tired of it. if i am going to do it - it better be so my actions will be meaningful.

on the other hand, i must admit that i do find great pleasure in customizing my character, each time starting off with a new concept in my head, and experiencing a slightly different gameplay experience, so for me rolling new characters doesn't even seem like as bad of a punishment at all as much as it seems to other people.

i think contradictory to everything i said on how PD influences player behavior, in a PD game my own characters may end up searching for an opportunity to have a dramatic and meaningful ending just so i can start a new.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

That is the entire point yes, and that point doesn't promote rampant killing, infact it promites a more discreete use of violence. As I said in my post the people that will fight the most will actualy be the weakest ones because they cannot retain power. While the peace centered guilds; or the more discreete ones are able to grow power of their membership without killing themselves.

Without PD, violence becomes a sport that guilds do "Just for the hell of it" at times. Full loot is a penality designed to get players more cautious, PD is also of the EXACT same nature as full loot, if you understand the purpouse of full loot, the implications of PD should be just as clear and of the same nature.

It really was very well said, Shinzon.

However, regardless of if "the people that will fight the most will actually be the weakest ones" it will still be a bloodbath. It's just that those with big guilds that avoid all kind of outside player interaction the most will become stronger over time due to lack of risk. I would probably take a similar approach on my first character as a blacksmith, just without a guild to lean on.

You see, I prefer smaller guilds just made up of good friends. I don't like to deal with strangers and I don't want to have to enforce rules upon anybody. I know my friends. I know they wont do anything to give our guild a bad name. Therefore I enjoy playing with them. In most large guilds there's just too much drama.

After my first character were to die, I'd have 2 options.. Either give up and quit the game or become one of those "[weakest] people that will fight the most" for the remainder of my subscription. As I would never go through the effort to do all of that skill training again. I guess the difference between full loot and PD for me is that I couldn't give 2 shits about losing a set of armor or an hour or two's worth of farmed gold, but losing weeks of skill advancement would bug the crap out of me.

Originally Posted by Traceur

there is one other thing: everything i said until now applies to the game world i would enjoy playing in. but i must admit, i sort of doesn't apply to me:

i never enjoyed improving my character's levels or skills in any MMO to be honest - not really. the only reason i ever get to it is to be a potential competent ally to my fellow players. but alone - it is meaningless - having "bigger numbers" just doesn't do it to me, never did. i don't even understand why people find pleasure in it. for me that seems odd & tiring. and i am honestly tired of it. if i am going to do it - it better be so my actions will be meaningful.

on the other hand, i must admit that i do find great pleasure in customizing my character, each time starting off with a new concept in my head, and experiencing a slightly different gameplay experience, so for me rolling new characters doesn't even seem like as bad of a punishment at all as much as it seems to other people.

i think contradictory to everything i said on how PD influences player behavior, in a PD game my own characters may end up searching for an opportunity to have a dramatic and meaningful ending just so i can start a new.

This does help me to better understand where you stand in all of this. It's impossible for me to explain to you why I enjoy living a full life in game with collected items, nice skill sets, and a great reputation as a long standing trustworthy individual when you don't really like any of that stuff.

I am almost opposite of you on this. I hate creating characters. In fact, in an MMO I rarely have more than 1 character. I hate the work involved in progressing them. I understand why it's there, but it's not fun for me. The idea of doing it over and over and over and over and over again endlessly really doesn't appeal to me. Besides, I hate telling people "Oh yes, I am Arxon, this is my alt, blah blah". The only reason why I had expected to have 2 characters in MO was to have both a PvP character account and a Crafter account. I'm torn between the two.. I love crafting and it'll win my heart any day, but how long can you go in a game without PvP before you just stop logging in? Lol.

Like you, I do like to be valuable to my friends, comrades. However, I feel more valuable as a maxxed out character than I do as a gimp. I don't feel as if I'm of any value until I'm the best.