Why permadeath is a nono

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

if you don't bother with progression then - assuming the blacksmith knows nothing on combat - the blacksmiths guild mates & city guards will kill you before you get close.

better yet - if you don't bother with progression then your on the same level of combat as the blacksmith - again, assuming he never did any fighting.

if he did.. then your pretty much screwed. because you didn't bother with progression.

As a blacksmith, you don't intend to progress in combat.. You only get so many skills, you want them to aid you in your profession.

And the murderer probably would work them for like an hour or two and of course they'd still go up over time as he killed people, which would likely make him too strong for me to handle, but too easy to care if he lost it.

I guess if I gathered 15-20 guildmates to stand around me while I mined for ore I could avoid the encounter, but who knows.. And i'm sure they'd get bored.

I say 15-20 because those characters that don't care about skill progression would likely travel in packs in order to handle the players that are a little stronger than they are. So as long as they are heavy in numbers they wont worry about losing. And whoever dies they just regroup with 5 mins later when he gets his new character.

[Traceur]

they would "Stand around you" because they are patrolling the city walls & streets while you pay the taxes that provide for their salaries or possibly even craft the weapons they need.

[F0rd]

Whatever, if the game had PD, I'd still try it. If it worked, I'd be pleasantly surprised, if it doesn't.. I told you so? That's all that would really happen. That and I wouldn't play, it just seems another opportunity for a great game lost because of one poor design choice.

Perma-death is still risking too much for the sake of nothing, in my opinion. Why not just delete a certain percent of a character's skills, along with full loot? The risk to PvPing would actually increase as players advanced. It really has no downfall in my opinion; a player is punished for not doing well enough, but doesn't have to start over completely.

My point about Goonswarm was that, if a person was to create low-level characters in large amounts and gang up on people until they were killed, those lower skill levels weren't important to the person ganking you, but your skills were. They MADE that character with the sole purpose of killing people that can't defend themselves, and dieing in the process. They don't care if they're hunted, they want you to die, and don't care much about their own situation.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

they would "Stand around you" because they are patrolling the city walls & streets while you pay the taxes that provide for their salaries or possibly even craft the weapons they need.

Okay.. I don't know how or when I ever implied that I wanted to sit inside of a single city, village, or town for my entire subscription of this game, but this is not what I am looking for in a MMO. I would hope that things such as mining would be something that you would have to travel outside of town to do. I also hope to have my own home somewhere outside of town one day that I can decorate and personalize.

I definitely don't wish to pay anyone anything that doesn't deserve it. I would expect that if I were to pay taxes to people for protecting me, then if I died, they should have to not only return my money paid to me, but also include an inconvenience fee for wasting my time. Maybe that money could help me in creating a new character, who knows, but at least I'll feel better.

Taxes are not fun for me. Taxes are only fun to the people that are receiving the money. If a guild was to tell me that they required money out of me to become a member I'd tell them to shove it. I'm here to play a game that is fun for everyone, not just those in power.

As F0rd said though, if the game had PD I'd try it. I'd probably not like it and go back to Darkfall, but the feature wouldn't turn me completely away.

[Traceur]

Arxon, if your idea of an MMORPG is to act brave and do things that would otherwise be risky without taking these risks, such as going out of your own without the protection of others or your own combat skills, then it is a very different idea then mine. i like to be placed as close as possible to the same decisions as my character - no roleplay needed - you have to think of the same things your character would. I'm not an actor - i actually tried, on stage, totally sucked.

ford, PD has only it's affect if it's permanent. i can buy/craft any items you loot, i can train any 5% skills you take away from me - i have no reason to fear death.

darkfall is likely to be a gankfest, as will mortal. you guys are arguing against PD because of meaningless slaughter, but these games are going to have a lot of it. i can handle it as long as not everyone will be like that and i can find my niche, but i don't like it.

[F0rd]

My whole point is that as long as there will be meaningless slaughter, don't try to force meaning into it. Leave it as it is.

I can remake a character, just the same as you can retrain your 5%, the only way perma-death would really be permanent would be to ban a person from the game forever when he dies. That just doesn't make sense, and as long as I have the potential to remake a character, don't make me go through the god-forsaken early game fifty times.

EDIT: The fact that I got to the point where I was means I deserved to be there, and worked to get to that point. Why make me retrace my steps because of a single event?

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

darkfall is likely to be a gankfest, as will mortal. you guys are arguing against PD because of meaningless slaughter, but these games are going to have a lot of it. i can handle it as long as not everyone will be like that and i can find my niche, but i don't like it.

The reason why PD can't be implemented is because there will be so much meaningless slaughter. It's kind of like a median that gives the gung ho killers and/or griefers their fun and still allows for those that get killed to continue playing with only minor consequences.

The idea of Full Loot isn't to persuade people not to fight, I think it's the opposite. It's more a reward for those that do fight, and are good at it. So while the person dying may not feel as if he lost much (then again maybe he'll feel like he lost the world who knows), the person that won the fight will feel somewhat rewarded.

Most of the PvP in MO and Darkfall will be meaningless slaughter. It only has meaning if you make it have meaning to you (in which case it probably still has no meaning to whom you slaughtered). Whether the system is PD or not the only people that fighting will hold meaning for are those that want it to, which wont be too many.

Usually the goal in PvP is to win fights. People will do whatever they have to in order to win. Be it Ganking, hacking, griefing, etc.. That is the problem with Open FFA PvP. But as long as there isn't PD, at least we'll still be around to do something about it.

[Traceur]

i already explained again and again why it wouldn't have meaningless slaughter - and i actually used different reasons each time - and each time instead of counter-arguing, you just repeat that their will be meaningless slaughter... it's like trying to reason with an answering machine.

and ford, how can you deserve anything in your kind of MMORPG? without PD, everyone can get to any point eventually. not using tactics or player skills would only mean you'll die more on the way - but since it doesn't matter, you will still get there.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Traceur

Rhygar, nobody said "bad players must suffer".

Lol, I was being a little bit tongue-in-cheek there...

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by F0rd

"repeat the first levels again and again because there are groups of players that enjoy killing you whenever they see you."

This statement keeps on being repeated by numerous people and is completely incorrect.

If PD was to be correctly implemented - remember this is a game that is built around the PD idea - then whenever you restart you would not be restarting in the same place or be required to do any number of hours of preparation. Your character would be good to go almost immediately - possible the same amount of time it would take you to get rid of your death penalty and re-equip in a resurrection game.

So each time you restart the experience changes.

The real crux of the matter is that you don't want to lose that particular character EVER or for ANY reason. And that is the mindset (although nothing wrong with it) is what really differs between pro-PD and anti-PD gamers.

[Traceur]

but if it your character is ready from the get-go then what does PD matter? the whole point of PD is making people afraid of their characters death, and progression has to be meaningful for that to happen, otherwise permanently dying doesn't constitute much of a lost to be afraid of.

also i don't think you need to restrict players from creating the same character - PD would naturally encourage players to try different characters.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Traceur

but if it your character is ready from the get-go then what does PD matter? the whole point of PD is making people afraid of their characters death, and progression has to be meaningful for that to happen, otherwise permanently dying doesn't constitute much of a lost to be afraid of.

also i don't think you need to restrict players from creating the same character - PD would naturally encourage players to try different characters.

I think my emphasis is not on NOT losing anything, but rather that each time you restart you do not "repeat" the same boring cycle. Your new character should lose skills and whatnot but should not have to do menial tasks to get to the interesting bit.

[Traceur]

with that i agree -
you shouldn't be "struggling" to get to do what you want to do, or to max out & get to some ideal end-game:
a PD game has to have a skill system (or something close to it) in which doing what you find interesting is how you get good at it, for that & many other reasons (including what you said, a lack of con system, a gradual progression curve, etc').

[Wraith]

This topic does make for interesting conversation, as well as some creative ideas, however, PD does not work in a MMORPG. It either would make things too frustrating, or make things too easy to achieve and give no sense of accomplishment.

[F0rd]

Originally Posted by Wraith

This topic does make for interesting conversation, as well as some creative ideas, however, PD does not work in a MMORPG. It either would make things too frustrating, or make things too easy to achieve and give no sense of accomplishment.

Nah man, apparently that frustration is what makes PD great.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by F0rd

Nah man, apparently that frustration is what makes PD great.

Ok that was funny.

Traceur, we can't battle this wit?!

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

i already explained again and again why it wouldn't have meaningless slaughter - and i actually used different reasons each time - and each time instead of counter-arguing, you just repeat that their will be meaningless slaughter... it's like trying to reason with an answering machine.

All that you keep saying is that there wont be meaningless slaughter and that staying in groups and fearing death will prevent it, it just isn't true though. It would happen to many of us... Maybe it wouldn't happen to you sitting all smug and safe in your little risk free guild city gaining your skills getting strong before you go ganking (This is all assuming of course that your town isn't over run by attacks).

Grouping only matters if everyone in the group is willing to put their lives to risk in order to help. Assuming your group does that, a few of the people in the group will still die regardless. Sure, your group may win the battle, but will they? While they lost maybe 5-6 characters that they started an hour earlier, your group has lost 1-2 members that have put a lot of effort into their characters. That's a failure in my opinion.

Are you trying to tell me that there wont be any groups going around with weak characters ganking people? Do you think that these people will care at all about whether they die or not? Because that's just nonsense. Anyone that has played MMOs knows better than to think that it wouldn't happen.

PD would have to work on some sort of honor code that human beings as a whole simply aren't able to adhere to.

And yes, Rhygar, Traceur is right that in order for any system of PD to work it would require a substantial loss to the dying character. Something worth fearing. Something scary enough to make them not even chance PvPing in general.

[Traceur]

o come on, do we need to jump between threads for this?

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Are you trying to tell me that there wont be any groups going around with weak characters ganking people? Do you think that these people will care at all about whether they die or not? Because that's just nonsense. Anyone that has played MMOs knows better than to think that it wouldn't happen.

PD would have to work on some sort of honor code that human beings as a whole simply aren't able to adhere to.

already answered:

Originally Posted by Traceur

player killers will give a damn about skill progression if it required for them to have any chance of actually killing someone. and yes: if people will defend themselves in numbers, in villages, in cities behind walls, in organizing themselves together, then they will either care about progression, or not be player killers - maybe they will be called finger-bleeders & nailcuters

now, if they do train their skills, organize successfully and still take the risks of PD in combat, then they are no longer player-killers: they are barbarians, bandits, criminals, which make the world a more interesting place.

Originally Posted by Traceur

if you read what i proposed, it was basic strategy (a.k.a. building civilization, organizing themselves together, living in numbers or behind walls) in which the attackers would likely need skills to get to anyone.

naturally, if their are more Pk'ers then people in civilization, the game will be a barbaric one. but it is unlikely, because like you said - most people won't want to be in the front line

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

All that you keep saying is that there wont be meaningless slaughter and that staying in groups and fearing death will prevent it, it just isn't true though. It would happen to many of us... Maybe it wouldn't happen to you sitting all smug and safe in your little risk free guild city gaining your skills getting strong before you go ganking (This is all assuming of course that your town isn't over run by attacks).

Grouping only matters if everyone in the group is willing to put their lives to risk in order to help. Assuming your group does that, a few of the people in the group will still die regardless. Sure, your group may win the battle, but will they? While they lost maybe 5-6 characters that they started an hour earlier, your group has lost 1-2 members that have put a lot of effort into their characters.

yes, in wars people die. both sides take that risk. i don't see any problem with that.

it comes down to this: for me and you, roleplaying means completely 2 different things. for you that means character progression is the focus of the game, for me it means that you are have to think like your character, be it roleplaying or yourself in another world - if you want to do risky things, you have to take risks. and that's the core difference between the pro-PD & anti-PD group.

your kind of "roleplaying" game has 9 billion versions already released - and they all either have silly restrictions (no FFA) or become meaningless slaughter houses, which you blame the game i want to play as being. why do you care if i get at list where i can do my kind of roleplaying?

let me have a game where i can play as a Mortal (pun intended)

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Traceur

let me have a game where i can play as a Mortal (pun intended)

This would be called the game you play everyday "life".



I really don't think many people would be willing to keep starting over and over making new characters and renaming them. Then put the effort into reskilling them just to have them die for some crazy reason. (like the baby taps the keyboard and attacks a guard)

Anything short of having to start anew everytime you die is not truely permadeath.

Permadeath just is not an option, no matter if you start in different places, learn different skills, or start out with a character who is almost "good to go".
(which is the same idea as a ressurection game anyway).

Companies want to make money, people want to feel one with their character, see your quote. If you die every 2 days and have to start over you won't ever really feel the attachment, and when you finally do you'll feel awful because now your dead and need to start over yet again.

There is just no money in trying to create a game of this nature, the fanbase is too few. I bet permadeath is a concept that developers rule out in a 10 minute discussion, if they even discuss it at all.

[Rhygar]

I didn't post that?

[Rhygar]

Anyway, my original post (or maybe that was on another thread) has now been ignored. I am not so much in favour of a one death and you're out system. Too much I think can go wrong.

My suggestion was the spiritual link system which is basically a death counter that we can reset by certain in-game action. However, all lives end eventually no matter how good you are. I quite like this idea as I agree some change in the world would be nice. You would actually be able to use a timeline and build a history for the world. It opens a lot of possibilities.

This system completely negates this argument that people would avoid combat with permadeath.

[Rhygar]

It would also negate the ganking effect. You have to kill the same character many times before he actually perma dies. The whole ganking problem would revert back to the same system as what is current.

Also, what about an alignment system? If you kill people of the same race that you are not officially at war with then all NPC guard attack on sight. That would also inhibit these squads of gankers you are so worried about.