Why permadeath is a nono

[Lachrymose]

my main beef with this idea is that this type of PD seems rather pointless. they could make a normal server and a PD server. both servers can have dueling, so if you want to be a duellist that fights to the death, join the PD server and just never leave the dueling pits so you won't have to worry about being killed in the real world.

most duellist will probably just relegate themselves to the duelling pits anyways, since they won't have much reason to go outside, and if they did they'd probably want an alt with a template that's more suited to world pvp.

[Traceur]

the problem i see with dueling is the exploitation. however what if the duel can't be canceled? people who go into a duel to the death won't be able to leave it until one of them is dead. this would limit the exploitation range i think.

all of this ideas "PD in a non PD server" ideas like "highlander" character types, PD for very unbalanced races such as dragons etc', risky magic with a chance of PD in case of failure, duels to the death...

non of those features actually cater to the reasons most of the pro-PD crowd actually wants PD. they might work in order to make people "more comfortable with the concept of PD" which i agree might be needed before the industry is ready for a full PD game, but they don't actually bring forth the sense of a community & dynamic world people are looking for in a PD game.

[catmorbid]

That I think is exactly what people have been trying to come up with: a good middle way between non-PD and PD, something that could realistically be implemented, so everyone could familiarize themselves with it. Basically, after a good success with that kind of feature, someone might actually create the separate PD server.

And I was also thinking that those duels shouldn't be cancelled until other one was dead, but I guess my posts didn't give that out.

[Traceur]

but i'm not sure if it works. these features give the disadvantage of PD (loosing your character) without the major advantages (community building, dynamic population, etc'). the only thing it delivers on is the excitement of high-risk-based combat, which might not be enough to balance the disadvantages. delivering the bad without most of the good? as a "familiarity game" it might very well give PD a worst face then it already has.

[catmorbid]

You're right, it would need another kind of reward system, such as making these mortal characters more powerful. That's the only senseful way I see it working. If there's no extra rewards, and thrill is the only thing you've got, then it's pretty bad. Though who's to say you couldn't form up solely mortal communities? Though their numbers would probably be pretty low.

[Traceur]

the "highlander" schenrio is very much related to the "so make it rare" topic IMO, as it's another way of making something rare in a non-PD game:

i could see the game incorporating an equivalent of SWG jedi in the much more organic form of chaos magic skills, where the tougher the spell the bigger the chance of it backfiring, and it may include a risk of PD... playing a dragon or a demigod or something of that sort might actually be possible if specific races such as those are PD enabled combined with a gradual growth curve (making fully grown dragons a rarity). similarly, a PD enbeled character might have it's primary attributes/skills cap gradually increase over time, so players can could reach with them a demi-god status of skills... if they survive for long. and dueling as you suggusted could be done...

all of this is really nice... but i have to say, non of this has anything to do with the reasons i want to play in a PD game/server.

[Unomat]

Then again Traceur, the answer to the topics Epoch raised as well as the fear for nominally trained zerg armies of PKers going on a killing spree in a PD game may very well hinge on the interplay between rare traits and rare resources I hinted on. If you:
- turn the art of setting traps into an integral part of defenses (so guilds outnumbered still stand a chance on their home turf and can slow the zerg down long enough for others to come to their ais) and
- give someone who died a PD as part of a collective a moderate starting advantage on his next character (using the skill progression system Lyllyth proposed), depending on the effect his death had during the battle,
I think the resulting dynamic system would favor organisations that actually spend time doing R&D and crafting alliances.

A player that has a maxed out fighter but has grown tired of it won't hesitate to fight in the frontlines if his next incarnation has a leg up in a skill of his choice, whereas the proverbial zerg of PKers will have a hard time breaking through defenses (traps may very well take out half their army) and a dead will net its player very little advantages. If the organisational soundness of the guild your character is part of determines the speed at which it becomes viable for combat again, the scales will tip in favor of order instead of pure anarchy ^^

Let's assume the average training period for a character to become battle-ready would be 20 hours /played, that'd still be reasonable for players who like to solo. The level of advancement of your guild could cut that time into half, or maybe even drop it to 4 hours i.e. one evening of playing; the rub would be the number of PC trainers who have mastered their skill beyond (a) certain threshold(s) and the availability of a relatively risk-free training environment.

[woodoo]

LOOOL Permadeath.. and one month ban from the game? cheers

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by woodoo

LOOOL Permadeath.. and one month ban from the game? cheers

A true believer in the cause I see...

[Somarl]

PD will put me right off, full loot i can live with, its risk v reward, bring it on, you probably wont want the crap ill be carrying around with me anyway, ill run round naked slapping people with raw ham if i cant find a new sword or armour (mind you some people like ham so that would go missing also).

Anyway PD sucks, i want to build on a char, make him great, possibly even reknown, not try to think of a new char name everyday and start skills off all over again. Make a different server for it, im sure it will attract enough people but i for one dont think THAT much realism in a game is worth it, i would play the game completely different with no regard for my character at all, then i would die, then cry, then quit.

[dawnofdeath]

PD in a mmo is just stupid, sure sounds hardcore but seriously don't get so overboard.

[Rhygar]

Once again you people completely misunderstand the concept. I hope you read through the whole thread before you guys just commented vague generalizations. If you did you will find that there are legitimate reasons why you would value your characters and why your enjoyment would be more/different (depending on your gaming preferences).

That said, yes, it would be a different game from the current type of MMO. It won't be for everyone and it definitely won't be in MO. However, that does not mean it is not feasible and would not be enjoyable for many people. It would be another niche market though.

Saying it won't be an MMO is stupid. It will be an MMO but you will play several characters over the course of the five years (give or take) you play the game. However, if the game design is good it will be balanced so that you did not play hundreds or even dozens of characters. That would be too many and it would indeed devalue the individual characters. A balance needs to be found. Here is at least one link of how I what needs to be considered to balance this http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/2...ing-dying.html idea.

The main idea is that the better you play the longer your character lives. If you are a reckless ganker you probably will live a shorter life.

[dawnofdeath]

Misunderstanding the concept? isn't PD perma death? = your char dies and stay dead
You are pretty naiv if you think that will happen in a mmo, they would loose more subcribers than newly players fast. If there were to be PD that would mean that there would be no point in making a mmo where you can advance your character since it would be pretty much impossible to a certain extend and people won't take that shit, to loose their chars from all that hard work.

Seriously it's like playing Final fantasy or any other rpg without being able to save the game. Can you imagine starting over from the beginning after dying?

And don't give me crap like Eve having PD, its not really PD when you make clones. I see no point in it at all.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Misunderstanding the concept? isn't PD perma death? = your char dies and stay dead
You are pretty naiv if you think that will happen in a mmo, they would loose more subcribers than newly players fast. If there were to be PD that would mean that there would be no point in making a mmo where you can advance your character since it would be pretty much impossible to a certain extend and people won't take that shit, to loose their chars from all that hard work.

Seriously it's like playing Final fantasy or any other rpg without being able to save the game. Can you imagine starting over from the beginning after dying?

And don't give me crap like Eve having PD, its not really PD when you make clones. I see no point in it at all.

The vague generalizations you have used have all been discussed on this and other threads. You are making many assumptions all of which are false.

A PD MMO would be very different like I said... otherwise it would not work. You are assuming the game design will remain the same as the generic MMO, or even be the same as Mortal. It will not be.

Go read through these threads and understand the ideas myself and others have given on how to make it work. Have you read anything before you posted? If not, stop posting tripe.

EVE's system is not even close to my proposals. Another indication you have no idea what was said before.

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

The vague generalizations you have used have all been discussed on this and other threads. You are making many assumptions all of which are false.

A PD MMO would be very different like I said... otherwise it would not work. You are assuming the game design will remain the same as the generic MMO, or even be the same as Mortal. It will not be.

Go read through these threads and understand the ideas myself and others have given on how to make it work. Have you read anything before you posted? If not, stop posting tripe.

EVE's system is not even close to my proposals. Another indication you have no idea what was said before.

Then you have to rename your feature. Permanent death IS permanent death! It shouldn't be doable to come back to life if it's PERMANENT.

Btw can you name any games at all with PD? I can't think of any game that make's your char dead and you have to start over from the beginning, not even in shooters. Hmm maybe super mario to NES? But it was easy enough to complete before you used up all your lives

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Then you have to rename your feature. Permanent death IS permanent death! It shouldn't be doable to come back to life if it's PERMANENT.

PD is PD. Whether it is after one death or several. The point is that your character will experience real death at some point and that is usually what people have an ingrained bias against because they do not consider all the changes that would have to be made to implement it. They just assume that it would be input as is into the current type of systems.

One death PD is not possible due to lag. I would love it but it just can't happen at this point in time. No amount of design creativity will get beyond that technological problem. Maybe in another 10 years.

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Btw can you name any games at all with PD? I can't think of any game that make's your char dead and you have to start over from the beginning, not even in shooters. Hmm maybe super mario to NES? But it was easy enough to complete before you used up all your lives

So because it has never been done before it means that it is impossible? Mankind would still be living in caves if that had been true.

It is quite possible to give a player roughly a year with a character. Very few people play beyond 5 years on a particular game. That means probably 5 to 8 characters or so. Not that many. In current games when you move on to a new game those old characters perma die anyway. It is inevitable and not that much different.

Just because it has not been done before or you don't like it definitely does not mean it could not work. If that had been true Mortal is already a failure because only WoW clones have any hope of success. I think we'll both agree that is not true.

Even on this forum people are quite enthusiastic to make food etc more essential to the game world to provide a more fleshed out motivation behind a players actions. Adding real death with various factors that will stave it off or quicken (such as food, luxury items, shelter) it would be the most powerful possible catalyst for both conflit and co-operation. You will want those resources to extend the life of character you created and have become attached to.

I am definitely not proposing this is the future for all MMOs, but as an alternative type of MMO in a niche of its own.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Btw can you name any games at all with PD? I can't think of any game that make's your char dead and you have to start over from the beginning, not even in shooters. Hmm maybe super mario to NES? But it was easy enough to complete before you used up all your lives

Diablo2 Is the most notable one. they even have a ladder competition for it.

Maybe you should try and do some reading and research before you reply. Unless you want to be looked at as a troll, you'd do yourself by doing it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_death
That's the first thing that came up, took a whole 5 seconds to find it.

[dawnofdeath]

tHmm long time since I played diablo 2 but If I remember correctly it was possible to save at that game and continue from there. Since I died many times but never had to start from the beginning. But I asked you to state such games since I myself don't know any, is that trolling? You better look up what trolling means while you're flashing that wikipedia link at my face.

Well it can be done even if "no one" else have done it before, but maybe there is a reason why it haven't been done eh? No matter how you look at it permanent death is permanent, if you can come back to life without starting over/making new char etc it's not permanent. You may as well call it TP, temporary death otherwise.
To have PD in a mmo will most likely never happen unless it dies after 4 years or something (by that time not many are still playing the game) because no one will accept the fact that their char and hard work will vanish like that, even after a year.
Well maybe you want it but certainly not the majority.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

tHmm long time since I played diablo 2 but If I remember correctly it was possible to save at that game and continue from there. Since I died many times but never had to start from the beginning.

It was called Hardcore mode. Once your character was dead it stayed dead, you couldn't create or join games with it anymore.

http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/hardcore.shtml

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

PD in a mmo is just stupid, sure sounds hardcore but seriously don't get so overboard.

hahaha, oh the irony. almost the exact same words came out of my mouth too once upon a time (not really that long ago) so it's interesting to see it from the other side...

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

people have to pretend to want a perma-death server so they will seem "hardcore," as if they don't have to worry about dying since they never will.

if you didn't bother reading the 9 pages in this thread (i can't really blame you), try reading this post and the next several posts after it (this is me figuring it all out): http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/2...html#post43466

if anything... the ideal form of PD isn't hardcore, it's actually somewhat carebear, not to say there wouldn't be a little chaos mixed in. although, i'm not so sure whether this "ideal" form is even possible, although i would really love to see it.

[Archaaz]

I have long been pro-permadeath. Once you have created a sandbox game and implemented the features Mortal Online and Darkfall will provide, it seems the next logical step to throw in permadeath as well. While I do feel that some very valid concerns have been brought up against the idea of implementing permadeath, and it is apparent that those against permadeath far out number those for it, I see no reason not to attempt it.

The great majority of the arguments, both pro and con, are mere conjecture. The viability of permadeath and any negative of positive results of its implementation cannot be known, with any degree of certainty, until such a system is tried. To claim absolute knowledge for either argument borders on the ridiculous. And yet, the potential boon for a system containing permadeath is unmistakable, easily outweighing the potential negatives. In fact, the only true negatives would lie in the loss of investment of the company involved in creating the game, and these could be mitigated by simply removing the feature should permadeath prove an utter disaster (hopefully after giving the system an ample trial period). As for negatives involving actual players, those players could either avoid such a game altogether, realizing that it contains permadeath, or could simply drop their subscription should it prove too much for them. Make no mistake, those clamoring for permadeath represent a very tiny niche, likely numbering much smaller than any other niche in gaming, but I do not feel that there is a democracy on innovation.

As has been stated, the primary reason to attempt it, other than the fact that clinging to tradition is terribly dreary and rather uninspired, is for its possible effect on the community (i.e. the players), and the game world in general. In any sandbox game there is an enormous capacity for dynamic, unpredictable interaction among players. Permadeath increases this potential ten-fold. My personal take on actual effects of permadeath is that it will indeed offer a new and more meaningful experience to the game in general- more so for some, less for others, and still others, likely a considerable amount, will simply become too frustrated to continue playing. The good thing about this is that the alternatives for the disenfranchised are many and varied…well, not terribly varied, not yet, but games such as MO and DF will perhaps change that state of affairs. In short, the whole market is thus far geared toward those who maintain no love of permadeath.

I think it likely that, with the implementation of permadeath (if it ever happens), we shall see every type of behavior as has been listed in this thread and more besides. I also have a strong suspicion that, over time, such an environment would evolve. I feel that various demographics would manifest themselves: large groups of newbie Pks attacking everything in sight, guilds dedicated to protecting the innocent, guilds dedicated to slaughtering the innocent, perhaps even player-enforced neutral zones where killers and non-killers alike are free to interact, and everything in between. At certain times one group might dominate, at others times another group. Again, this is pure speculation, but the possibilities are endless. The reality may prove entirely different, but this remains to be seen. Judging a hypothetical game containing permadeath by the same standards as the status quo is unfair, as permadeath represents a new element, and every new ingredient has the potential to alter the overall game.

Heroic actions would be made still more heroic with so much at stake. Heinous crimes, and subsequent evasion of the law, could garner a villain enormous reputation and perhaps even followers, garnering those who eventually bring him or her to justice even more fame. Player actions would take on an entirely new degree of importance. Legends would form. The very fact that a PK would now know that he is permanently killing another character, might even have some psychological effect on his actions. It would be like a big sociological experiment.

In short (in my opinion), the introduction of permadeath would do as much toward making the world of sandbox-oriented games more dynamic and interesting (and likely frustrating as well) as the insertion of a sandbox game would do for the MMO market as a whole. It is just another step, and will likely require that sandbox games in general acquire a broader acceptance before it is implemented.

[Lachrymose]

^^pretty much just said it all... and archaaz, i couldn't agree more.

[Rhygar]

Ja, I think that post can become a standard link as well...

[Victor]

I guess with perma-death, once a murderer always a murderer then, or?