Why permadeath is a nono

[Oddurbergthor]

Too mutch realism make games simulators.

It would be just like the real world.

''If you kill someone the law enforcement will come after you and kill you'' Whoopay.

Rather just stab someone in the back no harm no foul.

well not really, the stolen gear might piss someone off <:d

[Traceur]

ok...

and reality bothers you? since what age have you being experiencing that problem? come now, sit on the couch and talk, i am paid to listen

[Shurt]

I agree that there should not be permadeath.

Most players are barely accepting the idea of losing Loot on death (excluding me)

There has to be a happy medium between non-pvp and pvp and I think losing a couple of items on death WITHOUT an exp hit is that medium.

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Oddurbergthor

Too mutch realism make games simulators.

Whilst I agree on the PD point, simulators are some the most fun you can have gaming.

Project Reality > BF2
GTR2 > Need for Speed Pro Street
Flight Sim X > Ace Combat

[Xtra-Medium]

the concept of permadeath is good but there is to much stuff that can go wrong you could die with no control of the situation

[Traceur]

i am all for PD from a gameplay perspective (i think i made that point about 2 dozen times), accidental deaths included as well as backstabbing.

but yes, i accept what Shurt said - i understand the reality that the MMO community as a whole might not be ready for it yet - people are too stuck up with the concept of character advancement being the central goal.

i think FFA PVP full-loot games like mortal might provide the first step, the middle ground on which to walk on before you start seeing people actually demanding a PD game.

time will tell.

[papoos]

Well perma-Death would not fit into a game that is going to charge for playing. At least I would not play a game that when i die then everything up to new and pay monthly to start "New game" all day. = /

[Xtra-Medium]

A PD game has to be done with ultra high realism so that you don't die by something dumb like you didn't hear the guy behind you with the dagger since you don't have surround sound.

[Traceur]

because of the telepathic ability connecting directly to your brain through the game telling the killer if you have surround sound... yep, that's it, PD can't work because all player killers have real telepathic abilities


the problem is that most MMORPG games today don't really have much of a gameplay to really hook anyone by itself, so instead of using player-to-character attachment to improve the gameplay & emulate the need for survival with PD, they use it as the hook itself.

endless resurrection is like a game admitting defeat: "I'm not really fun, you don't really want to play me anymore, but you worked so hard to build up your character... are you really going to leave me now?"

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

i am all for PD from a gameplay perspective (i think i made that point about 2 dozen times), accidental deaths included as well as backstabbing.

but yes, i accept what Shurt said - i understand the reality that the MMO community as a whole might not be ready for it yet - people are too stuck up with the concept of character advancement being the central goal.

i think FFA PVP full-loot games like mortal might provide the first step, the middle ground on which to walk on before you start seeing people actually demanding a PD game.

time will tell.

The concept of Character advancement is only my central goal in an RPG.

If they want to release an FPS Killing spree game with perma death that's fine with me, maybe I would play it. I just wont pay a subscription fee for a game in which nothing ever changes.

[Traceur]

i definitely wouldn't want a game in which nothing changes - that's why I'm against endless resurrection in the first place.

but like i said in my previews post - too many people like you are hooked to the character attachment itself rather then the fun of a potentially changing & dynamic nature gameplay without endless resurrection.

we need to take the EQ/WOW out of the gaming community, and MO might be the first step of doing so.

[Arxon Havenloft]

of course I am hooked to character attachment. Tha't s the point of an RPG isn't it? That's what catches my interest about MMORPGs in general. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy a couple of hours playing COD4 every once in a while but I don't pay a subscription for that. I'm just saying that while I may understand the idea of perma-death, I don't exactly think of it as a MMORPG kind of thing. Anyways, I'm drunk and I'm going to bed.. But perma death is bad in any game tha twishes to attract gamers in a MMORPG market. It's not that we don't understand the benefits of it it's just that we know that's its cons outweight the pros...

[Shinzon]

This has been discussed to death so I will re-iterate...

EVE Online has perma death, but what sets it appart from every other MMO; is that once your HP reaches zero, you are not dead; you essentialy have to be killed multiple times in order to truly die, but even then there is an option to revive yourself using clones, but it is possible to kill a player.

So PD in it's current WoW type setting, will absolutley NOT WORK. What you have to do is add layers to death, with each layer leading closer and closer to actual player death.

Here is a way to translate that into a medival MMO:

Faint - Your HP reached zero; your body is a ragdoll and lootable for everyone

While fainted a player can choose to truly kill you, but because this is a concsous decision, severe penalties can be attached to a killing of a player. Death has been trivialised in all games; and the argument PD is counterproductive to charachter progression is valid only as long as you stick to old desidn principles, think ahead, move on; evolve. With the current way of thinking all games will stagnate and collapse; and we will have a massive market crash similar to the one in the 80's except this time Japan is coming along for the ride...

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

of course I am hooked to character attachment. That's s the point of an RPG isn't it?

this is also a sandbox game and building upon the character-attachment element of an RPG with PD can offer so much more - player justice system against criminals making things interesting for players on both side of the law, assassinations actually meaning something, economical monopolies can fall into ruins, political tides actually changing dynamically as enemies become really destroyable, players joining together to build civilizations for mutual protection, or taking the challenge of survival and feel like they earned it: think about it - your actions actually making a difference.

i want to get hooked on those

Shinzon - their are multiply ways of integrating a PD system, you can have a number of lives, you can have chance system each time you die, you can have a undead realm in which eventually you won't be able to return from, etc'. but the thing is - everyone on the server has to be apart of it. in EVE only people who choose not to make clones become part of it.

[Shinzon]

The clones thing is just essentialy a money drain, but strictly in technical terms, there is a way to die, it is just so far removed from the actual "HP Reaching 0, goodbye" that is nearly un-attainable, compared to WoW where you could make multiple "Corpse Runs" in a single engagement.

It was just an example of how you can distance PD from the player; while still making it a possobility that shouldn't just be ignored.

[Traceur]

yes, but in EVE it is ignored... everyone gets cloned.

[sushibandit]

Actually, the only way to truly "kill" a character in EVE is for the owner to reprocess the character into biomass on their login screen. Clones only facilitate the safeguarding of EXP, they are not 100% necessary in order for your character to "stay alive". The penalty for not having current clones is a steep one, thus most players (the sane ones) always keep theirs up to date.

Back on topic, I am against the idea of permadeath in an MMO like Mortal. As you might have guessed, I play EVE Online, and in EVE your character's name is your reputation, identity, everything. Your character's name is tied to all prior corporations (guilds) you were in, what security status you are (how good or bad you are), etc..

Permadeath would remove that sense of ownership and responsibility for your character that you spent time and effort training and building your reputation. Say you're the first master swordsmith on the MO server, but a rival smith hires an assassin to kill you. You probably aren't spec'd for combat, you have no chance to defend yourself against a hitman. Should all your work spent moving toward that goal of becoming a master smith be allowed to disappear without you being able to do anything about it? I say a resounding no, that will only drive large numbers of potential customers away.

There is such a thing as 'too realistic', and it typically makes games very unfun. Should there be a penalty for dying? Absolutely. Should dying completely destroy all your time and effort spent to date? Hell no.

[Shinzon]

What is "Specced" for combat? as I see it, even the hammer you use to smith items is a formidable weapon if you know how to use it; that is going by the idea that skill in combat matters more than what you are wearing. So if you are a master swordsman, you can hold your ground with nearly any sword weapon.

Though I wouldn't be against the notion of the Deva being able to transfer the highest (Or player chosen) skill of a player over to a newly created charachter on the same Deva; that way even if you are killed, you retain your most important skill, but the initial charachter is dead.

Some people use lastnames to name their charachters, here is a perfect example of a use of a lastname, your charachters are tied with the last name; one is dead, but others retain it, and thus your reputation

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by sushibandit

Should dying completely destroy all your time and effort spent to date?

in EVE you do have a PD system in another way - it is a gear centric game (naturally to the setting) and if you loose all your money then it's not very different then PD.
but people still come back, because all of the risk, competition & cooperation, teamwork & strategy, makes the game more fun.

why should your attachment to "all the time & effort you spent to date" be the thing that keeps you going? if a game is more fun & interesting as a result of PD (in conjunction with other gameplay mechanics ofcourse), wouldn't you come back for more?

i would.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Traceur

why should your attachment to "all the time & effort you spent to date" be the thing that keeps you going? if a game is more fun & interesting as a result of PD (in conjunction with other gameplay mechanics ofcourse), wouldn't you come back for more?

i would.

Because skilling up your character is almost a job in itself. Sure, it can be attempted to make it fun and interesting but let's face it, the more you do it the more you are used to it, and the more of a chore it then becomes.

I'll get pissed enough if I spend an hour mining for ore and someone kills me and takes it. I enjoy full loot FFA PvP don't get me wrong, but that's an hour wasted for me. Most of my gaming session. I get absolutely nothing accomplished. Now imagine losing everything else too. I have to retrain my mining, blacksmithing, and whatever other skills go with such an art. As each death occurred I'd probably just give up and start playing less and less until my gaming days were over. It's just not worth my money to continuously lose everything.

Originally Posted by Shinzon

What is "Specced" for combat? as I see it, even the hammer you use to smith items is a formidable weapon if you know how to use it; that is going by the idea that skill in combat matters more than what you are wearing. So if you are a master swordsman, you can hold your ground with nearly any sword weapon.

Yes, as a smith you'd expect we'd have plenty of very useful weapons on hand, but the guy attacking probably has his combat skills maxed out. Such as Swordsmanship, Anatomy, Healing, Tactics, etc.. Just healing alone would probably give him the victory.

[sushibandit]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

What is "Specced" for combat? as I see it, even the hammer you use to smith items is a formidable weapon if you know how to use it; that is going by the idea that skill in combat matters more than what you are wearing. So if you are a master swordsman, you can hold your ground with nearly any sword weapon.

Certainly as a smith you haven't spent your time screwing around in the local town guard training facility? Meaning, you are probably not going to have the player skills to successfully ward off an attack; regardless of how hard you can swing your mighty hammer it doesn't matter if you can't hit the opponent. Sword blades on your forge don't tend to move around and swing back at you.

Not to mention you probably won't be wearing 'armor'. Not to mention you probably won't be carrying around healing potions/bandages/etc...

I still say that permadeath is not a viable system for a game like Mortal to have. You will keep the most hardcore players, sure, but you will drive away significantly more players that could keep the game alive for much longer and allow the developers to keep adding to and improving it.

I know for a fact that if permadeath is implemented in MO I probably won't play past whatever trial period they may offer.

It simply won't be fun.

[Shinzon]

Then that would be the case no matter what you are doing, as a smith you have chosen to be a crafter, and thus no matter how hard you try, you will never be as good as a person who dedicated himself to combat.

I was talking about the fact of a naked master swordsman with whatever sword he managed to quickly grab against a fully equped assasin the master swordsman is still a formidable threat that shoulnd't be taken out easily (Unlike when you are naked and with a sword in WoW), I wasn't talking about Crafters VS Warriors; I think that is a no brainer no matter what.

As a warrior you play to kill other players and monsters, that is your trade that is your life, that is your income; your martial power. As a crafter you chose to forgoe martial prowess and instead chosen to take economic means of control and exertion of power. You want to fight on equal grounds with another warrior class? Go become a warrior yourself...

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

skilling up your character is almost a job in itself.

so why have it in the first place (in the context of a non-PD game)?

[sushibandit]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Then that would be the case no matter what you are doing, as a smith you have chosen to be a crafter, and thus no matter how hard you try, you will never be as good as a person who dedicated himself to combat.

I was talking about the fact of a naked master swordsman with whatever sword he managed to quickly grab against an assasin...

And I wasn't talking about Crafters VS Warriors; I think that is a no brainer no matter what.

Well I was talking about crafter vs. a warrior/assassin, and I stand by my comment that permadeath without being able to do anything about it (realistically) would destroy the game.

And why should a hired hitman be able to erase however many hours of time you spent training that character, undergoing the trials and work required to obtain the knowledge required to be considered a 'master smith'? Sure he probably put in a similar amount of time to make his character powerful, but he has comparatively little risk in slaughtering you while you stand to lose every hour spent on that character.

Death should have penalties, yes. Death should not have a permanent affect on your character/account.

edited to respond to an edited comment

As a warrior you play to kill other players and monsters, that is your trade that is your life, that is your income; your martial power. As a crafter you chose to forgoe martial prowess and instead chosen to take economic means of control and exertion of power. You want to fight on equal grounds with another warrior class? Go become a warrior yourself...

I think you're on the wrong tangent here. I don't care if a warrior should be able to easily kill a crafter, in actuality I agree. The problem comes from a warrior killing a crafter (with PD) and the crafter having no chance to do anything about it, thus losing hours of work. We are not arguing about warrior vs. warrior, or 'fair fights' or 'equal footing', we are talking about how PD would break the game in terms of risk vs. reward and player retention.