Mining

[osteo]

This thread is created to debate how we find out what ore we are mining? I was just woundering cuz i could not find where in the question and answers this question was asked. I hope we dont have to find a certain spawn. I hope we just have to go up to where the stone is and start chipping away at some stone. I hope we just dont have to mouse over some sparkly object and think to ourselves ooh hey heres some copper, because a tool tip window pops up and tells you what it is.

This also brings up another thing once we accumulate some mineral do we automatically know what it is? I hope someone can shed some light on this question.

[Shurt]

Agreed. I can imagine the different rock colors delivering different kinds of metals. IMO, those rocks should have a spawn rate of a certain amount. Once it has been mined, the player would have to move on to another piece of rock. Disperse these rocks throughout the different mountaneous regions of the world.

[Shinzon]

There are very few "Surface" veins in the world; so in order to mine any metal, a geologist would have to come and inspect the area, after that an entire mine has to be developed.

I would like to see that, that way resource points become points of conflict and interest; development of resources becomes important and a huge money sink for any player or guild. This way, there will be an actual use for NPC and player made "Mining Guilds" and anything along those lines...

As soon as resourcres are avalable for any common joe on the surface without as so much work as taking the pickaxe out, you reduce the importants and the conflict over resources.

It is my opinion that every single gameplay mechanic should incourage player interaction in one way or another; not needed essentialy, but extreamly beneficial...

[Traceur]

discovering new mining areas can be fun (and fighting over them), but i am not sure about the mining process itself. I've never mined myself, but i am guessing that it's not a very fun activity. so i think either do it through NPCs like Shinzon said or some mini-game or something.. or perhaps a mini-game of managing the NPCs?

generally i usually prefer minimum NPC hirings - they inherently create a "leveling" grind since the number of NPCs becomes the multiplier for productivity.

but i have to admit some things (like mining, farming, etc) seem to just be too boring to implement them in a fun way without using NPCs.

[Arxon Havenloft]

I like it how UO did it. Walk up to a mountain or a cave and go wild. You never know what you'll get until you try it. And then the key is remembering those locations.

Of course it would be a little more difficult obtaining the higher metals because of the lack of a recall/mark system that UO had. Though I'm only guessing that there wont be recall/mark in MO, we don't really know for sure. But the mining system in UO was next to flawless in my opinion.

[osteo]

This could be cool but lets say this is in the game. Ok so we find our vein the next step could be hard though how would a mine be created. The only thing i could think of is that every mine will look the same, or at least have the same layout.

It could also be cool to actually set up a small town around the veins to protect it, from being used by someone else. If someone actually did this though there would be a big surge of people against this so i wouldnt see it last that long.

One more question should these mines run out of raw materials eventually, or over a period of time eventually start to come back?

[Arxon Havenloft]

I'd say they run out after a few strokes.. How much ore you get with those strokes depends on your skill in mining. Then the veins would replenish over time, hourly, daily, whatever it may be. This way using your memory to remember their locations actually means something. And you can have the knowledge to "one up" your competition.

[Shinzon]

If anyone has played the game Wurm Online; I would perfer the system they have there.

All ores are in actual "Veins" which are found underground and in mines, iron is extreamly common, you can find it in almost any mine, the actual veins do not respawn, once a cave has been mined out, it has been mined out forever; but the veins themselves take around 1000 strokes tro break; so that is alot of ore which can be reprocessed into "Lumps" in a forge, and then can be reforged into weapons tools, and anvils.

Depending on the size of the world; this could be a good system, forcing a constant expansion outward away from civilization, as new resources are always a bonus; but if the world is small, a system similar to what is in WoW would have to do.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Hmm.. I could do 1,000 swings with a pickaxe in one gaming session. Maybe 100,000 would be more appropriate?

[osteo]

What im not understanding though shinzon and ill elaborate better. I was talking about underground mines. How would the process work for a player to create an underground mine. Should there be like 4 or 5 premade default ones that randomly chosen?

[Shinzon]

Totaly player made would be the ideal thing. I suggest poeple take a look at Wurm Online, it is a game written in Java supporting deformable terrain and underground mining as well as house building, and extensive crafting. Give it a chance and consider that the thing is written in Java, and use it as a resource to base opinions on.

For the people that are lazy, Wurm uses a grid system with elevation maps, and players can later the elevation maps in the "Dirt Layer" it is possible to dig all of the dirt and hit the "Rock Layer" which is impossible to dig through but you can mine through it. So in essense there are 3 major height maps, the dirt, the rock and the mine height maps.

A player can choose to start mining at any single tile if the rock layer is exposed, hence the ability to form mines at any tile or location they please. But each time you start to mine it takes 30 seconds to mine, so to exhaust a vein you need 30*1000 seconds so 30 000 seconds or 8.4 hours of repeated non-stop mining.

Granted MO is going to use the UIII engine so the prospect of using a tile based system is probably out of the question, instead mine entrances can be built anywhere; space permiting, and they act much like a house in oblivion, in that if you enter the mine you are "Teleproted" inside much like in oblivion, and the layout of the mine can be pre-canned by the devs with the regular WoW veins spawning inside the actual mine, with the type determined by the geographical area; hence the previously done prospecting on the surface before the development of the mine, with a predefined spawn number; so after a while theese veins would stop spawning in; or the Wurm style veins would stop yeilding ore, forcing expansion.

Also a "Node System" can be used. A Node is the only place where a mine can be built, and each node is dev specified, this gives the devs a chance to carefully handcraft each mine, and any encounters within. This means that a mine Node can lead into a dragon layer, a river of lava, or be un-eventfull and peacefull as the dev's wish it. So a trade off, even though the placement is more limited, each node can be created into it's own adventure per the dev's will.

Once the actual mine is placed there are 2 things that can be done from the technical perspective. The first one is the mine can be dynamicaly altered by the players; the miners dig at at the mine wall and the shape the layout of the mine themselves. The second one is more mechanical but less technicaly difficult. The mines are "Hard Upgraded" in the term that the owner shells out a defined amount of resources and the mine is "Extended" to another level and size; offering more resources to be exploited.

Now you can have alot more fun with the abondoned mines, you can have timers on the mines that will "Spawn" monsters inside the mines if no player has visisted a mine after a certain amount of time. So old mines could become goblin or other monster's nests giving the player made territory a second life as a dungeon. The size or level and the gestation time can specify the difficulty of the spawned monsters. So that initial mega dwarven mine now abandoned suddenly turns home to a balrog that is now attacking the home city...

[Arxon Havenloft]

So you don't believe that the Unreal engine supports tiling? Is that why they started using veins and nodes in MMOs today? I personally dislike them. I loved how in UO you could just walk into a cave and mine away. Taking 30 seconds between each mining attempt would be kind of lame too I think. It would take forever to gain the materials needed to craft sets of armor. Not to mention how much it would suck to be waiting in line for the chance to mine the ore. Depending on how much each attempt yielded of course.

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Now you can have alot more fun with the abondoned mines, you can have timers on the mines that will "Spawn" monsters inside the mines if no player has visisted a mine after a certain amount of time. So old mines could become goblin or other monster's nests giving the player made territory a second life as a dungeon. The size or level and the gestation time can specify the difficulty of the spawned monsters. So that initial mega dwarven mine now abandoned suddenly turns home to a balrog that is now attacking the home city...

I absolutely love the idea of monsters taking over an old mine shaft after it has been abandoned! That is a fantastic idea.

[Landor]

Yea that idea of monsters taking over an old mine shaft is cool.

Maybe if they could have iron nodes spawn in swamps, just like how in real life you can find iron in swamps if you look hard enough. But those are mostly in old swamps. And you have to try and find those nodes in the swamp. But you don't really have to mine the nodes, you can just pick them up.

Which doing something like this could add another layer to mining and crafting.

[Shinzon]

So you don't believe that the Unreal engine supports tiling?

People just tend to stick to the most peculiar things. The Unreal engine is not tile based as far as I can tell from the onset, so any "Tile Support" would have to be coded in manualy (Tiles are basicaly grids that break up the terrain like a chess board), nodes are not defined by any tiling they are an object in 3D space. Who gives a shit about the specific technical language and implementation of a freaking forum idea?

30 Seconds is an arbitrary figure taken from an existing game (Which shrinks the more you level up the approperiet skill and stats), and the sheer number doesnt tell you what you are doing in that time, it could be a minigame, it could be staring at a progress bar.

My point is quit crashing on little niche specifics and take a step back and look at the whole thing under the pretense that any arbitrary numbers given are subject to change as is the entire idea, and numbers are used to flesh out a concept.

[Arxon Havenloft]

I just prefer swinging my pickaxe at a wall or floor rather than swinging it at a giant rock/vein/node sticking out of the ground practically screaming "mine me".

And the little things are important. I'd be much more for the idea if it didn't take 30 seconds to mine for example. The reason why I pick out the small things to speak out about is because the idea in it's whole form seems fine to me. So it's time to fine-tune it, heh.

[Shinzon]

Fair enough; might have over reacted slightly...

I talked about the WoW style veins within the mine due to the fact that altering a wall might be impossible, or veins stuck in the wall... making a vein wall...

[Grannus]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I'd say they run out after a few strokes.. How much ore you get with those strokes depends on your skill in mining. Then the veins would replenish over time, hourly, daily, whatever it may be. This way using your memory to remember their locations actually means something. And you can have the knowledge to "one up" your competition.

I like this idea. If you can keep it secret, you have a constant source. If someone else finds it, and is there when you return, instant PvP.

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Grannus

If someone else finds it, and is there when you return, instant PvP.

Minus the fact it will be listed on numerous sites after its found, like Gamefaqs. I think there will be a lot of fighting due to this.

[Shurt]

Originally Posted by osteo

One more question should these mines run out of raw materials eventually, or over a period of time eventually start to come back?

I'd say that they would run out. You don't want the same guild/group mining away at the same spot. Mix it up once in awhile like star wars galaxies did.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Aiten

Minus the fact it will be listed on numerous sites after its found, like Gamefaqs. I think there will be a lot of fighting due to this.

I think that there would be far too many veins for people to all find the same one.. I mean thousands of valorite ore locations and everyone happens across the same one? What are the odds.. Besides, miners aren't the best fighters. I'd wager they'd just move on to the next vein or mine a different metal within that area.

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I think that there would be far too many veins for people to all find the same one.

Well, if you google 'Mortal Online Gold Vein Locations', which lets be honest, people will, they will get the published ones from 'helpful' souls wanting your ad revenue. Those veins will be constant in demand, simply because we are usually lazy and can't be bothered to find them ourself. Minimum effort, maximum reward

I am pretty certain they'll become no go zones soon enough, as pkers wait around for the next easy kill.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Aiten

Well, if you google 'Mortal Online Gold Vein Locations', which lets be honest, people will, they will get the published ones from 'helpful' souls wanting your ad revenue. Those veins will be constant in demand, simply because we are usually lazy and can't be bothered to find them ourself. Minimum effort, maximum reward

I am pretty certain they'll become no go zones soon enough, as pkers wait around for the next easy kill.

Yes, but out of all of the veins to choose from, what are the odds of everyone randomly choosing the same one after looking on the website?

Honestly I'd just walk up to the mountain somewhere near my home and start swinging until I've found one of each vein. There wouldn't be much of a reason for anyone else to be there. No reason to go too far to find a spot when with a little bit of trial and error I should get one in a few minutes.

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Yes, but out of all of the veins to choose from, what are the odds of everyone randomly choosing the same one after looking on the website?

That all depends on the rarity of said mine, the local population, and danger.
Most people will go to the closest one, so if your in a highly populated area (such as living in a proper city rather than a player town), those mines will be pretty busy.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Aiten

That all depends on the rarity of said mine, the local population, and danger.
Most people will go to the closest one, so if your in a highly populated area (such as living in a proper city rather than a player town), those mines will be pretty busy.

Well yes, that makes plenty of sense. Any popular or busy area would probably be full of people. I prefer more secluded areas. My home would likely be alongside a mountain that was far from any busy area.