Vendor Trash "usless items"

[Batman]

If you do get a bear paw you cam make it into jewelry!

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Death Saved

GOLD????!!!!!!!!!!!

Gold should NEVER be made into USEFUL weapons they should only be used as a status and/or wealth symbol.

I imagine making a Gold Longsword in our reality. Upon first use, the opposing sword would cut right through it. Though, there is a difference between a "Gold Sword" and a "Gold-plated Sword", where the solid gold sword would be useless in combat, the gold-plated sword would be as useful as the base metal, though it would lose it's plating when used.
^-- That's a statement, not a suggestion.

However, depending on what your description of "Weapon" encompasses, a "Gold Weapon" could be a golden amulet that can launch fireballs. But now I'm just being pretentious.

[Helstun]

Greetings,

In the debate over vedor trash I think that the Devs need to make all "items" dropped by npcs, mobs, monsters, etc... usable to each crafter/profession. This would in turn let all the 'vendor trash' still be vedor trash, something that I can sell to clear space in my bags, but rather it still be important enough to someone to be considered valuable. The most important issue here, imo, is that each item needs to have an oppurtunity cost invloved with it, keep it to craft or sell it because I thinks its worthless.

-Hel

[DreamSpawn]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

If there is an item better than that +1 Longsword then you can believe me that no one will ever buy a +1 Longsword, heh.

If you have no weapon, you only have 200 gold, the best sword in the game costs 100.000 gold and the +1 Longsword cost 100 gold, I can promise you that you would not hesitate to buy the +1 Longsword.

In the real world (and many fantasy worlds) people buy what they need (or want) and can afford. Even if you're going to be the mightiest warrior in the game, you will have to earn money before you can buy the best sword in the world - how are you gonna do that without a sword of lesser value ?

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

Yes, I am just in hopes that items will never be all that "powerful" and that items will be common.

One of the things that make a lot of people keep playing is the hope of getting bigger, better and stronger. What will there be to achieve if everything can be easily bought everywhere. One of the greatest thrills in RPG'ing is when you come across some rare (and perhaps powerfull) item that you can wear, hold, wield or in other ways show off to your friends and foes for envy and respect.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by DreamSpawn

One of the things that make a lot of people keep playing is the hope of getting bigger, better and stronger. What will there be to achieve if everything can be easily bought everywhere. One of the greatest thrills in RPG'ing is when you come across some rare (and perhaps powerfull) item that you can wear, hold, wield or in other ways show off to your friends and foes for envy and respect.

Isn't this why we don't play WoW? The reason one of the greatest thrills is getting new items is because the gameplay is restrictive.

Seriously though, I understand what you mean that everything can't be the same. I would prefer to see difference in weapons but not based on damage output. Maybe the durability and balance of the weapon. Better durability decreases the chance that a weapon could break in combat. Better balance could possibly enable you to strike slightly faster due to better control. The benefits should not be huge though.

The most important issue is item degradation. Average items need to be replaced reasonably frequently. Maybe higher quality items could be produced that would last several character lifetimes, but should be especially difficult or time-consuming to make. Even those should become unusable eventually.

I've even toyed with the idea that if you had some sort of prestige system, more expensive weapons, armour etc, which give you marginal benefits in combat, are essential to gain said prestige. Prestige could then be used to gain other benefits in game. Thus exclusive weapons have a purpose without making combat gear-based or certain weapons redundant.

[Fourak]

Good idea Horraru

Definitely will add to immersion that you can use vendor items like vendors misteriously would.


Downside is it might be a pain to implement such an items system

[Balkin]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

I like this idea. I think this is what people generally mean when they refer to a more in-depth crafting system.

This and so many other things could be added to make crafting more variable and ultimately produce more uniqueish (is that a word?) items.

I agree, I think you hit the nail on the head about deeper crafting here. Vendor trash should serve a purpose and the idea posted by the OP is a pretty good general idea of what they can be used for. Needless to say I like it!

[Thay2k]

Kind of like the salvaging in Guild Wars but more complex?

[Elfvis]

I really am a fan of this. This would also lead into different teir of "salavagable ( for lack of a better word)" trash drops that could contribute to the economy in a whole new way that other mmo's never touched on.

[Bobsyouruncle]

The start of the solution is simple, from my humble eyes.

Long of the short:
__________________________________________________ ________
Make anything that ends up vender trash, actually be trash.

If we want vendors to not be simply providing steady amounts of infinite weath, they need to be more realistic vendors.

If they buy 10 of the same vender trash item, aka the classic rusty dagger, there needs to be a price drop for buying more of those items, and eventually stop buying them all together. That is unless the item has use to someone, such as the example of selling the classic rat pelt to a vendor. Many newbs may sell several to a vendor, and one non newb may buy 100 for his rat skin tent.

In this scenario any item that the vendor will just be 'inflating economy' with, will turn out more like a bad investment for him, and he will realize he needs to stop buying them, because they aren't selling.

(numbers used are not intended to be viable)

This would bring up one posible arguement that I can forsee... 'A newb wont be able to sell his rusty daggers like the previous newb, and is at a disadvantage' In short, correct. But more like the real world not everyone wants a rusty dagger, but theirs always need for raw materials like wood, food, etc. So he could choose what 'job' he likes best if he needs to make money.

Smart retail is of course only part of the solution, since infinite monster spawns are a game mechanic that will probably never go away, and yet is what creates the same economy problem.

The other part of the solution besides smart retail from npcs? That brings us back to previous mentioned items such as 'breaking down items into raw materials' and 'item/building/material deteriation over time' (and maintanence)

The realistic side of the previous is of course your blender may last 10 years, but not forever. A building usually goes after 100 years (tho the game will not see this), at the very least buildings get repainted every few years, and natural disasters strike, as well as willfull demolition, or even areson etc.
__________________________________________________ ____
Short
__________________________________________________ ____
1. Vendors that stop buying what stops selling.
2. Other options such as "Salvaging" (raw material from item)
3. Item and 'stuff' maintanence / breakage / obsoletion
__________________________________________________ ____
Side notes / Afterthoughts:
__________________________________________________ ____
Games have started regularly having 'auction halls,' this is not the solution -but has admittedly been the short term fix for Other game economies.

If the game turns out needing to have an auction hall, they didnt make a good enough economy.

Why? If I hunt my classic 100 rat pelts and sell them to the local vendor, you should simply go to that vendor and buy them +vendor fee. That is, only if you miss the chance to buy them directly from me (smart npc retail + bartering side of economy)

That also will be the cause of Mercantalism (is that a word). If someone wants to buy my 100 rat pelts before I sell them to the local vendor, he can be the traveller/merchant that goes and pettles his wares in an area he thinks will buy them (for a profit to him, based on not buying them from the vendor, saving the others travel time, etc)
__________________________________________________ ___
Who's your Uncle? Bobs your uncle.

[Resin]

I totally agree.

I also think it should be possible for an NPC to go broke, though extremely difficult. A broke NPC should then be willing to either work selling items for players for a commision or be willing to borrow money from players with the promise of paying it back with interest, of course he will only be able to do this if he starts earning money again, pehaps his stall could be used as collateral, and this could be how players come to own shops.

[Shaudon]

Originally Posted by Resin

I totally agree.

I also think it should be possible for an NPC to go broke, though extremely difficult. A broke NPC should then be willing to either work selling items for players for a commision or be willing to borrow money from players with the promise of paying it back with interest, of course he will only be able to do this if he starts earning money again, pehaps his stall could be used as collateral, and this could be how players come to own shops.

I like that I dea and it would also help to limit currency in circulation and maybe help to curtail inflation. Maybe even a fractional banking system. Where deposits can in banks can help with money supply issues. Also refusal to repay could spawn a quest that involves some pvp.

[Elfvis]

Originally Posted by Resin

I totally agree.

I also think it should be possible for an NPC to go broke, though extremely difficult. A broke NPC should then be willing to either work selling items for players for a commision or be willing to borrow money from players with the promise of paying it back with interest, of course he will only be able to do this if he starts earning money again, pehaps his stall could be used as collateral, and this could be how players come to own shops.

IF an NPC can go broke, he should also be able to lie, mislead, or do other misdeeds to get out of the hole. How interesting would it be to go to a vendor with your stuff and he is to salavage the metals from it. You go back the next day and he is gone, or he says you never came and refuses to give you your materials. reputation with NPC's could give you a higher chance of this not happening to you.

[Resin]

Crooked NPC vendors would be interesting I hope they would need to eat and rest as well.
And when they do.....

[Arxon Havenloft]

Directed at Dreamspawn:
I pretty much agree with Rhygar here up until the point where he begins to refer to durability lasting through several character lifetimes.. I say hell no to that, lol. Durability should last on the most durable of items through maybe a few days of the item's use in combat. We do have to keep the craftsmen in business after all, lol.

Originally Posted by Rhygar

Isn't this why we don't play WoW? The reason one of the greatest thrills is getting new items is because the gameplay is restrictive.

Seriously though, I understand what you mean that everything can't be the same. I would prefer to see difference in weapons but not based on damage output. Maybe the durability and balance of the weapon. Better durability decreases the chance that a weapon could break in combat. Better balance could possibly enable you to strike slightly faster due to better control. The benefits should not be huge though.

The most important issue is item degradation. Average items need to be replaced reasonably frequently. Maybe higher quality items could be produced that would last several character lifetimes, but should be especially difficult or time-consuming to make. Even those should become unusable eventually.

I've even toyed with the idea that if you had some sort of prestige system, more expensive weapons, armour etc, which give you marginal benefits in combat, are essential to gain said prestige. Prestige could then be used to gain other benefits in game. Thus exclusive weapons have a purpose without making combat gear-based or certain weapons redundant.

Also, there should be more to your game then getting better items.. The game itself is supposed to entertain you.. You actions, your strategy, your friends, your involvement with the world around you.. Not what you're wearing.

Originally Posted by Resin

Crooked NPC vendors would be interesting I hope they would need to eat and rest as well.
And when they do.....

I would love to see crooked NPCs. Though we would have to be able to kill them and take our items back (Assuming they haven't already been sold), and if they had sold the item then we should be able to get the information out of them (in one way or another) as to who it was that the item/s were sold to.

[Ravenwoods]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I would definitely enjoy that. Of course we would have the potential problem of a craftsman lockout. As in if every crafter decided that the simplest of things were going to cost a lot right at the start then they'd get rich quick and there's really nothing that could be done about it. Of course, even without vendors/merchants I guess we could still get some loot off of monsters/creatures/mobs throughout the world so maybe that couldn't be an issue.

Vendors could be dynamic like in runescape though. Like once somebody sold somthing to vendor it becomes available to sell from vendor but the pricing is decided by the vendor(probably set by devs).

[Sabbicat]

Here is a twist on the use of the vendors and the "trash" they may buy. Lets say that as a craftsman I have spent much of my time over the forge and not had the time to go and do some foraging/farming. Now I need some Iron as a base, some gold as ornimatation and bear claws for some mystical enchantment. Where do I go in my time of need. I could go over to my friend the Scavenger / Junker and buy up his supply. Options:
1. Oh wait no one has been by to visit him lately and he doesnt have anything to buy. What a shame I will have to wait or go out hunting myself.
2. An adventurer has just come in from the wild lands and has sold 10 rusty daggers, 1 gold amulet and and 5 pair of bear paws.
Rules of supply and demand can come into play. If we sell the "vendor trash" to the vendor has things that may be of use to crafters. If we dont sell the the vendor then there is nothing available for crafting other than what we get ourselves.
Another option that I can think of if I remember correctly in the game Ryzom you could go to the vendor and buy supplies from them or things on consignment from other players.

[Resin]

I would like there to always be a real number of X item on the server and a real number of gold in play. This could be adjusted and tweaked in stealth patches when things get way out of wack.
Merchants should be able to calculate the price of an item based on the price of previous items sold and a system of Haggling (which could also be a player/NPC skill). All items should be recyclable to get a percentage of their materials back again and should have a decay rate.
If the price of anything falls below the lowest monetary unit they could try bundling them (say selling a crate of 100 instead just 1) or just tossing it (no one is buying rotten food).

[Elfvis]

Originally Posted by Resin

I would like there to always be a real number of X item on the server and a real number of gold in play. This could be adjusted and tweaked in stealth patches when things get way out of wack.
Merchants should be able to calculate the price of an item based on the price of previous items sold and a system of Haggling (which could also be a player/NPC skill). All items should be recyclable to get a percentage of their materials back again and should have a decay rate.
If the price of anything falls below the lowest monetary unit they could try bundling them (say selling a crate of 100 instead just 1) or just tossing it (no one is buying rotten food).

If there was always X amount of items in game how do respawns work? You kill 100 mobs you get 100 of there items, so when they respawn your adding to that base number X.

The way you could curb the market is like mentioned above have NPC's track what is sold and at what price and ALSO everytime the same item is sold or something the price goes down. Add a % over time or % demand modifier and you can then have a price system that inflates and deflates based on shortage and surplus.

[Jaka]

That is a really great idea, I like that vendor trash could be trade able to crafters for some.

[Haltair]

I agree, the idea of recycling sounds great. Instead of taking silly things and going to the nearest vendor, dont take them OR make with them a new thing. With an old mail armor, make metal bars, and thn sell them or make a helmet. Thanks for the idea Horraru, i hope to see it into the game, it makes the economy sistem more interesting. And also if you use bad materials you get a bad sword, the same if your skill is low, awsome. I also thougt that if you have two identical daggers, you could use one to make the other better, use two to make a better one. This will be interesting, because two man with the same sword, but one of them have reinforced his sword, so its better. The same if you could put gemstones in your weapons to make them better,like enchanting them, (and also make them beautiful). Or putting reinforcements in your armor, a metal stinger in your shield.... not only having a good equipment, i would also be important to modify it and make it your OWN gear.
What do you think?

[l0kkinen]

some seemingly useless items that can be still vendored with a story behind them. for an example, in the 1800s a small amount of money was paid for every rat killed, that's why i could understand vendoring rat tails as the npc is paying for fighting the towns rat problem. this also applies to broken armors, warbanners and other things collected from mobs that are supposed to be your enemy. even if vendoring is stupid, players need gold and it's still better than having rats drop gold. as for recycling items for crafting materials, i completely support your idea. i wonder if we should insert limited resourses in to the game as well? there isn't an infinite supply of coal and iron ore, altough medieval blacksmiths couldn't make those resources run dry as they will last for a few hundred years even with high industry.

[Elfvis]

Originally Posted by l0kkinen

some seemingly useless items that can be still vendored with a story behind them. for an example, in the 1800s a small amount of money was paid for every rat killed, that's why i could understand vendoring rat tails as the npc is paying for fighting the towns rat problem. this also applies to broken armors, warbanners and other things collected from mobs that are supposed to be your enemy. even if vendoring is stupid, players need gold and it's still better than having rats drop gold. as for recycling items for crafting materials, i completely support your idea. i wonder if we should insert limited resourses in to the game as well? there isn't an infinite supply of coal and iron ore, altough medieval blacksmiths couldn't make those resources run dry as they will last for a few hundred years even with high industry.

I like this. It would give reason to keeping a bear paw. And this stuff wouldn't be quest related, but just a reason to turn something in and each region could have specific turn ins based on what they wanted to get rid of or somethng like your rat idea. Very good idea.

[Haltair]

I like it l0kkinen, its sounds great. So you will have a reason for killing stupid moobs .I didn't thought on that...

[Ceynt]

i agree, there should be very few items that should be completely useless(vendor fodder)