Player Driven Market?

[Shinzon]

Ack it cut me off D: in finality, i think that a player Driven economy would be an excellent idea, but it will need the proper regulations and juristiction in order to prevent certain problems to arise, such as guilds and higher level crafters beating competitors to a grimy, orange goo.

Why would that be a problem? That just means their output capacity is going to be larger than a single crafter, you can still make money; but not on that scale. Also that would imply that a guild has gotten a monopoly over the basic resources needed to manufacture whatever they are beating everyone else to a pulp to...

[MisterMystery]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Why would that be a problem? That just means their output capacity is going to be larger than a single crafter, you can still make money; but not on that scale. Also that would imply that a guild has gotten a monopoly over the basic resources needed to manufacture whatever they are beating everyone else to a pulp to...

My concern is with newer crafters competing against Powerful higher leveled crafters, or a guild. For example, lets say the marginal cost to produce a sword of flame is 2 gold, while your trying to sell it for 5 gold, for a net profit of 3 gold. If your a beginner crafter, u may only have 2 gold to produce the item, so lets say u can only produce 1. Now, an oligarchy of crafter can perhaps produce 10. however, they sell theirs at 3 gold. Since they produce 10 though, they still make a profit of 10 gold. Obviously if two items are alike, you will purchase the cheaper ones, so in an economy where only the players can buy, the new crafter is forced to reduce itself to the prices that the monopoly demands.
My main concern with the system is new crafters just starting out. I want them to be able to make it on their own without being forced to what their competitors want. I do acknowledge they can still make money, but i think that Having NPCS able to purchase goods allows crafters to not get totally eaten up by competitors.True, i think competition is fun, but sometimes too much of it can really cause some damage.

[Shinzon]

The new crafters would still need the exact same materials as the guild. So they would both be buying the server average; unless the guild has an independant supply that is alot cheaper, in which case the entire server might have a problem as single guild managing to gain so much ground.

The only true way to compete in crafting is to become the best.

I simply cannot think of a way that a single craftsman can outperform an entire guild; it just doesn't make any sense. Unless the crafters manage to unite, hire out an army and destroy that guild's infratsructure...

[iZakaroN]

Player crafted items for sure. Its so stupid when bear drop weapon or armor. For shure there must be MOB drop but it have to be in kind of resource. Best items in the game can be created through rare resources achieved from drop and harvesting. Also legendary items must be dropped on parts from different NPC and them assemble by legendary crafter.

[MisterMystery]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

The new crafters would still need the exact same materials as the guild. So they would both be buying the server average; unless the guild has an independant supply that is alot cheaper, in which case the entire server might have a problem as single guild managing to gain so much ground.

The only true way to compete in crafting is to become the best.

I simply cannot think of a way that a single craftsman can outperform an entire guild; it just doesn't make any sense. Unless the crafters manage to unite, hire out an army and destroy that guild's infratsructure...

For the first part, thats exactly the problem i think could arise. Because they need the same resources, larger guilds have the capability of stunting the growth of other crafters, because in ratio with revenue and profits, beginner crafters have to give up more in order to make a profit on an item. however, higher leveled crafters can just outproduce, probably MORE than the market is asking for that item- which brings us to that last paragraph. I I'm not saying a single crafter has to be able to outproduce a larger guild, but that the larger guild has more flexibility in its prices, and if it wanted to it could royally screw over that single crafter, by lowering prices to the point where since they are so big they still make money, but that the single crafter would waste too much time trying to compete, and exit the market. A good real world example are all these mega corporations and monopolies. If we are using a player driven economy, it is essentially the same thing as a real world economy.
I'm also afraid of vertical integration- a guild being able to control all levels of production, including all the materials in order to produce a weapon or good. Lets say, one guild hires another guild to go out and fight monsters in order to bring them back raw materials, and there is a set price for things. Well, what if these two guilds merge under one chair? Now not only do they have more power, but the cost has become much cheaper in order to attain these materials. This can give them a great advantage in the market, and single crafters, even if they band together, can sometimes stand no chance against well-dug in guilds.

Also, my main concern is not early-mid game: I think when the game comes out, the player driven economy will be a refreshing change in the way things are done. However, I'm afraid when things start to get established, newer players who will want to try their way as a merchant, will have trouble trying to compete with these mega guilds that will essentially be running their business into the ground. its what wal-mart and starbucks do.
All we really need is some regulations and safe-ways for crafters to do business. I really do like the idea of a player driven economy, but the problem is a lot of times many games keep it uninhibited, and then when things go out of hand, heavy regulations are put, and the game spirals downward. I think by establishing simple regulations at the initiation of the game, we can prevent it from getting too hectic.

[Shinzon]

Thats a natural progression, I don't think you can fight it, on any "Old Worlds" you will get absolutley Titanic Empires slugging away at eachother, with lone players just being sweaped away.

One thing you can do is impose a "Traders Guild" that monitors the market and tries to stabalize it, so if a guild is able to make it cheaply, they tax that guild to slightly even the price out, but not enough to homoginize the economy.

[MisterMystery]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Thats a natural progression, I don't think you can fight it, on any "Old Worlds" you will get absolutley Titanic corporasions slugging away at eachother, with lone players just being sweaped away.

One thing you can do is impose a "Traders Guild" that monitors the market and tries to stabalize it, so if a guild is able to make it cheaply, they tax that guild to slightly even the price out, but not enough to homoginize the economy.

Thats actually a good idea- It doesn't take away too much competition, but it limits the control some monopolistic guild can have over the market. As for the natural progression, is this game probably going to be multiple servers then? Because I thought i heard somewhere it was going to be one...

[kurrency420]

player driven market only!!

Lotro does a decent job of this. For example, for one of you legendary traits in lotro most classes require {The Putrid Slim of Helchgam} to get this move. The instance this item is in has a 5 day lock. Once you start it it doesn't reset for 5 days. That kept the item at about 15g on auction house, which is really good in lotro.
Well recently on their free update, they added a cpl of traits and armour sets that require you to run cd quite frequently and what that has come of it, the slime now goes for 7g. What Im pointing out is the devs have slight control of a player driven market.

Another example:
The pvp area of LOTRO is ettenmoors, a place where you can create your own lvl 50 monster player and play on badside. The overall point of this area is of course to kill as many bad guys or vica versa as you can. Well their is 5 keeps or castles that have there own boss or tyrant. 2 of them are smaller keeps or just camps, and 2 others have a better defense and more npcs, and the one in the center is huge. These keeps can be controled by either bad or good guys and they will flip accordingly.
With that being said, their is an instance in the pvp area that you can only access if your side owns 3 of the 5 keeps. Both sides can enter the place if they own 3 keeps, if your already in their you get to stay if the tide turns. Their are 14 bosses in the Delving of Fror, and each drop a stone that you can barter for armour, and they reset every half hour.
My point with this is that this makes it even more of a player driven market, on my server, the creeps own most of the map all the time, they outnumber us, the stones go for about 3-4g a piece and it takes anywhere from 2-12 pieces per armour piece. But some weeks, its opposite and we own the map, then the prices drop to around 1g a piece.
The stones on the monster side are just used for Potions and cannot be sold on ah or at all unless you vendor, and money is pointless on monster side.


Thats why i believe in player driven market, the devs always have some control.

[Vafthrudnir]

The best items should be lootable and craftable with the crated items offering more customisation in look (skin, color, ...) and stats and the looted ones having a small advantage in overall stats or some other specials.

If player made items are the very best in general, there is no need for any lootsystem except sell to npc.

[Zoulz]

The idea of a market driven by players have always appealed to me. I think any high ranking gear should be accessible through crafting only.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Vafthrudnir

If player made items are the very best in general, there is no need for any lootsystem except sell to npc.

not necessarily. it depends on how expensive the crafted items were vs. the difficulty in it dropping off a mob. if crafted items were relatively expensive, a character with little money or one that was saving his money for some reason could go farm for armor for a while.

although, i do think it'd be best if the very best gear was obtained via looting only the most powerful creatures that would take a group to kill, while the next best gear (and nearly as good as the best) could be crafted, but using expensive/rare items. or hell, even make them equally as good. the important thing is to make sure everyone has equal opportunity at the best gear, so crafting is important b/c it helps those who don't want to pve, while those without much money can get a group together and get relatively free gear.

[Junglenose]

You are talking like there is only 1 big city to sell stuff in. Think of it as many small villages and little towns. The big guilds mayby want to sell in "the big town" but in real life there is a difference in prices if you look at diffrent places.

So if you are a new crafter maby you should try to sell your stuff where the price isnt so hard too meet.

To succseed in the big city, you know. It isnt always so easy.

[Shinzon]

although, i do think it'd be best if the very best gear was obtained via looting only the most powerful creatures that would take a group to kill,

I disagree... Mosnters and higher level "Epic Bossess" should drop materials only. How can a dragon drop a sword, how can you use the club of a giant cyclops?

Idealy all items should stem from player crafters...

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

I disagree... Mosnters and higher level "Epic Bossess" should drop materials only. How can a dragon drop a sword, how can you use the club of a giant cyclops?

Idealy all items should stem from player crafters...

Indeed.

[fivetigers]

My vote goes for a blend of the two, where at the upper levels they work in conjunction. For example, you don't simply find the uber sword. You go on a quest and find some magical gem that you can socket into a high lvl sword that can only be crafted out of rare materials by the best craftsmen around.

Or on the flip side of the coin, you find a way sweet sword and take up a quest to gather rare, and often found in very dangerous locations, materials that you take to an alchemist who breaks the materials down and creates a potion to anoint your sweet sword with, thus making it uber.

Synergy people!

[Cadavre]

A player driven market is a must. However the Devs must consider things that most people do not take into consideration. Like inflation. The DEVS will have to sell some high ticket items like houses or mounts for sale by the NPC's. If all the coin stays in circulation then inflation will run out of control.

A player driven market will only work if you have a sufficient number of people on any given server. The more players you have then the more control you can give to the players. If you only have a few market makers for any item then they can take advantage of this and raise the prices artificially.

[Yojimbo]

I voted for option 1, but I'd like to make one stipulation clear. A player driven economy is great ONLY if the game isn't gear centric. For instance: UO's system was great, basic necessities of day to day fighting were readily available with a few rare items that gave slight advantages costing more. Where as L2's (lineage 2) system was a freaking nightmare. Where you HAD to have a certain set of VERY VERY hard to make armor/weapons in order to progress in the game. This often led to people quitting.

Both were player driven economies that involved crafting and selling. But one was fun and easy to approach. While the other was in some cases a game breaking experience. The key difference was emphasis on gear.

Side note: L2 did have a neat player store system that was basically you sitting down with a text box that said what you wanted to sell floating over your head. Though that doesn't sound neat, it wound up creating these huge market places where 100s of people would have their toons camped out selling. It really added a neat element of depth to the game world.

[Sonn]

The less NPC items the better. The one thing SWG did right was a 100% player driven economy. Though I suppose it also depends on how in-depth the crafting system is. The whole idea behind a player economy is to promote a community! If the high tier loot items are all crafting components, and the crafting system supports item "experimentation"--then you will get individuals that become server-wide expert crafters, by crafting the best items. Either way it promotes communication. There is nothing worse than logging onto a MMORPG and it being dead silent.

[OMGPIE]

A very small amount of NPC base (and I mean VERY small) and mostly player driven would rock for the economy.

[Elfvis]

Depends really on how the "crafting" is derived. Will it be a set of reciepes like current mmo's or will there be a random factor. I think that not knowing all the time what your going to make is somewhat of a boon to the economy as you never know who is going to get the thing you want. However when I say random I do mean that there should be a method to that maddness. No one wants to farm for X amount of time to get a PoS.

[ilocpis23]

A real economy delivers so much realism and depth to game play that it is, imo, one of the most important parts of an MMO game.

Problem is, most games failed at it, except for UO from 96-98 (not sure about after 98). EVE Online's economy was one of the most complex ever seen, however the wheels have come off that economy in the last year or so, and it will continue to malfunction unless they do something drastic.

The key has to be a balanced inflow of money, and very real money sink holes. PVP is always a sink hole as long as there is real loss with death. In UO, once dead, anyone could loot you. As painful as that was, it brought an element of realism to the game, and also kept the economy churning.

That combined with the cost of reagents made the economy something very real, and thus crafting worth while. I hope Mortal studies the importance of a real economy long and hard before firing this bad boy up.

[Xandor]

People should look at Vanguards saga of hero's crafting system. Thats one thing that game got perfect.

There crafting quests, great items can be made and it all made it so there had to be plenty of harvesters to sell mats to crafters.

If we can be anything close to VG crafting it will be great.

[Balkin]

Originally Posted by Xandor

People should look at Vanguards saga of hero's crafting system. Thats one thing that game got perfect.

There crafting quests, great items can be made and it all made it so there had to be plenty of harvesters to sell mats to crafters.

If we can be anything close to VG crafting it will be great.

Yes indepth but they need to remove about 400 clicks so I dont get carple tunnel...

[Shaudon]

I also hope for a player driven economy with full market sovereignty and a cap on currency in circulation that gradually rises over time. The cap on money is to curb inflation due to infinite amounts of money chasing finite amounts of goods.

[Kazode]

I hope of a player driven market

Where only the players can make all the "high end" items

If you're a random person with a lot of cash in your pocket and want a sword ?
- Get someone to go get some rare ore
- Get a blacksmith that will be able to make these ore usable for crafting
- Get someone who will be able to take these ingots / any other material and make a sword with it


And all these steps shouls have small bonus / malus. If he did not melt the ores correctly, it might be inpure and the sword might be more fragile.

I would not mind seeing NPC buying and selling stuff though. NPC that for a cost could melt your ores, or forge a sword from your ingots. Those NPC might be somewhere around 50 - 70% of the skill a player could get, so those NPC will never replace player's market and will never be able to forge "epic" swords / armors / clothing / potions / ...

[Wrathmist]

Any great PvP game you need to let crafters make top end items armor/whepons.I thought DAoC had best crafting for any game ive ever playd.I been in em since UO . In DAoC you could ajust all atributes of your toon with makeing the correct items for him i thought was a great system but thats just me