Magic and how to cast it.

[Kraven]

Okay there has been alot of talk about the game is supposed to be about personal skill and stuff, melee combat, quite obvious how that can be solved.
Ranged? Also quite simple the aiming and taking wind and weather, all that stuff into account.

Magic though? Push a button and cast a spell? Where is the skills in that?

Therefore i suggest another system, anyone played Black and White? The spells was to be made with the mouse to be cast, i suggest something similiar just transformed into a first person action style.

The steps of casting a spell.

step 1.
Go to Casting mode (cant block or attack in this mode, plus moving may result in backfiring).
step 2.
Right mouse button equals right hand and left equals left hand, through that you make simple movements, different movements casts different spells, some of the more advanced spells may take some more advanced movements and therefore be quite risky to use.
step 3.
Lets say you made a fireball, concentration mode activates automaticly, concentration mode you aim in and then you release the spell through clicking the attack key.

---

A hard system to play with yes, but on the other hand would open up the possibility of much much stronger spells due to how hard the movements and stuff in casting mode would be, like a fighter who knows when to block and when to attack shows that he is skilled, the strong and hard spells would show whether a caster is skilled.

[The Last Spartan]

Why shouldn't we be able to move when we cast spells? Archers can move when they fire an arrow, Meleers can move when they attack, why can't Mages?

And I don't like the idea of having to make movements, since the chance of backfiring or getting it wrong makes the Mage class overly complicated.

Also, why can't we block or or attack when we're casting a spell? Can't we run at someone and cast it, closing the gap between us, therefore making the spell hit sooner.

[Thalras Naeblis]

Definitely, I hope the devs are able to make that in MO that would be the next gen of magic casters in MMORPGs

[OMGPIE]

I think moving while attacking or casting should be in MO but I think that you should be slowed down while you do so. I kinda like the system people thought of where you draw a little rune or something like that. I don't really care about the click to cast thing that much because I don't see a problem with it as long as there are casting times and stuff.

[Modest]

While I wouldn't like the basic FPS-like point-and-click spells, I think they'd have to make the spells pretty bad-ass strong in order to counter the fact that they would have the survivability of a snowball in hell by having to stand completely still. And this would probably give some balance issues.

[Kraven]

Yes i admit it would be extremely hard to balance, but the casting "sensitivity" is really what determines whether it will bring balance issues or not, i mean like in Black and White as the example i used in my opening post, cant remember the exact spell, but lets say you made an "R" on the ground and that was a fireball, there was a quite low Cast "sensitivity" what i mean is, as long as it reminded of something close to a "R" it worked.

Anyway examples of what i mean is.

Fireball could be a cross you had to make with the hands and you had "summoned" the fire ball.
Call upon a sword of fire would be a long line and cast some kinda engredients into the mark.

Nothing fancy for the low level stuff.

Lets say a high end spell would be a 5-6 action spell, example.

Divine Fiery, would be a lets say a cross, mixed with a engredient thrown in and something else, very strong spell but takes concentration.

---

This would open up for a whole new dimension of spell casting due to the fact you could with this "Combine" powers, to spawn a hell demon you may need 5 strong casters doing the exact same spell of 6-7 action lines.

or 4 casters doing 4 different spells to combine the power of these spells into one very powerful spell, give casters the idea of a brotherhood, like 5 knights can make a shield wall and cover the more squishie and thats how 5 knights could band the same brotherhood kinda playstyle, give people a reason to work as one instead of doing their own thing only, in some situation doing your own thing would be the smartest..

The last part got a little off topic but yeah.

EDIT : Mind it in one on one simple spells would often be the strongest, in big group fights where you have someone to cover your back the stronger and more advanced spells would be the best.

In addition, you casters out there, cant come and tell me it wouldnt give some brilliant feeling to change between different casting modes, defensive to absorb a enemy spell to switch to offensive and give them back while knowing, if you screw up you risk being the one fried by your own spells.

[catmorbid]

Arx Fatalis also had similar system where you "painted" forms in the air and then cast the spell and it was a first person rpg. I think it worked pretty well, though never played it that much. I think in it you needed to make several forms/symbols for more advanced spells.

[The Last Spartan]

But then you disadvantage the Magic casting folk. They have to do extra work than a Melee or Range character for the same attacks? No thanks.

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by The Last Spartan

But then you disadvantage the Magic casting folk. They have to do extra work than a Melee or Range character for the same attacks? No thanks.

And here you are assuming that magic would be as pitiful and meaningless as in most games nowaday, instead of potentially extremely powerful magic. I think magic itself has been made too meaningless by making it as easy thing to do as swinging a sword. In my opinion it should be very very difficult to learn - both for you and your character, but having nearly limitless possibilities, which in the end more than meet your needs.

In good old PnP games where a high level magic user would meet an equal level warrior, if they fought, the warrior would lose a direct encounter, whereas on the lower levels, the warrior would wipe the floor with the magic user.

So basically, how difficult magic casting should be made should reflect and depend completely on how powerful magic will be.

[Veith]

I think i posted something similar in another thread.
What i dont like in 'modern' magic is really the fact its only a compensation for missing bazookas and bombs.
And so im thinking more and more fantasy should not content any more such effects.... no bombs, no missiles. For me its clear why in Mount and Blade such magic is not implemented because it would destroy all tactical combatgameplay for 'mount and blade' combat, and magic 'limited' would be anyway only boring.
The fact folks like playing mages because sorcerers are two-leg-ed rocketlaunchers is for me a sad aspect for computerfantasygames. Its to common, now more common than swordfighting. Its modern warfare with curious, gaudy outfit.

[Kraven]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

And here you are assuming that magic would be as pitiful and meaningless as in most games nowaday, instead of potentially extremely powerful magic. I think magic itself has been made too meaningless by making it as easy thing to do as swinging a sword. In my opinion it should be very very difficult to learn - both for you and your character, but having nearly limitless possibilities, which in the end more than meet your needs.

In good old PnP games where a high level magic user would meet an equal level warrior, if they fought, the warrior would lose a direct encounter, whereas on the lower levels, the warrior would wipe the floor with the magic user.

So basically, how difficult magic casting should be made should reflect and depend completely on how powerful magic will be.

Exactly, give casters the feeling of "unlimited" power when the spell is cast.

In real life to be a swordsman takes strength, agility, timing and instinct, most that is.
In a first person game like this with the fighting being based on player skill you can get the ability to time and the instincts into the game to make fighting feel real.
A archer in real life takes some strength, some agility, timing, instinct aswell as the swordsman and the same things(the use of instinct and timing) will be felt in a first person game like this.
A caster well since there is no such thing in real life we need to base our basic idea of meditation, monks lets say, the reach such a deep point in meditation that some monks do, takes concentration and self decipline, along with intellegence.
With this system we can give players a need to controle themself when a big fighter is running towards him not to get nervous and screw up hes spells, at the same a caster would need to remember certain things, such as how to do what spells, which would make the player test their concentration and memory, since a good player that got flair for such things would remember way more spells than a bad player and therefore give casters the same feel of reality as archers and swordsmen will have if combat is implemented properly.

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Kraven

Exactly, give casters the feeling of "unlimited" power when the spell is cast.

In real life to be a swordsman takes strength, agility, timing and instinct, most that is.
In a first person game like this with the fighting being based on player skill you can get the ability to time and the instincts into the game to make fighting feel real.
A archer in real life takes some strength, some agility, timing, instinct aswell as the swordsman and the same things(the use of instinct and timing) will be felt in a first person game like this.
A caster well since there is no such thing in real life we need to base our basic idea of meditation, monks lets say, the reach such a deep point in meditation that some monks do, takes concentration and self decipline, along with intellegence.
With this system we can give players a need to controle themself when a big fighter is running towards him not to get nervous and screw up hes spells, at the same a caster would need to remember certain things, such as how to do what spells, which would make the player test their concentration and memory, since a good player that got flair for such things would remember way more spells than a bad player and therefore give casters the same feel of reality as archers and swordsmen will have if combat is implemented properly.

I remember Arx Fatalis had it pretty right. It allowed you to have a few quick-slot spells, but you could do others out of memory too. So maybe the quickslot spells should only work as a quick-reminders here, but you'd have to do the actual casting maneuvers yourself, as I generally dislike any instant casting. Or having a very limited choice (maybe number based on an attribute/skill) of quick-cast spells would still take pretty long time to cast, not being instant, but would have the advantage of 100% success rate.

[Sorjak]

I've been thinking about this for some time, and here are some conclusions i've come up with:

Magic should be fairly easily picked up at the novice levels. It shouldn't be extremely so, but it's unfair and annoying to have to do something complex to cast the most basic of spells. However, it's similarly unfair, though not annoying, to have epically awe inspiring spells brought about through no more effort (on the player side) than a simple fireball.

To try to solve this puzzle, i've thought about a few things:

1. All spells must manifest in three basic ways. Projectile spells(or long distance spells), spells that affect the self, and area of effect spells.

2. The longer a spell takes to cast, the more powerful it should be. Similarly, the more complex a spell is to cast, the more powerful it should be.

3. Magic is historically a practice of those with agile minds, not stupid people. Therefore, it makes sense for the characters to have to commit the spells to memory before they are used.

4. Finally, I see no reason for cooldowns on spells, besides the global one. It's an arbitrary game mechanic if I ever saw one. Balance is achieved without it through mana, or spiritual energy. Warriors don't have to wait five seconds (outside of the actual swing) to stab someone twice.

With these points in mind, I propose this system:

Depending on your skill in magic, you'd be able to memorize a certain amount of base spells at a time. Base spells are the simplest kind of spells. These would include a simple fireball, or a one second shield.

All base spells are instantly cast. However, they can be modified before the cast, either through hand gestures or holding down the mouse over them.

Everyone starts off only being able to click the spells or do hand gestures before them.

As players get more skilled in that particular spell, they'll start being able to hold it down for a more powerful spell. This more powerful spell will deplete more mana (obviously), and will require no hand gestures. However, you'll still be able to click on it for just the simple, instant spell.

Hand gestures can modify the spell in several ways. It can make it more powerful, make it another type of manifestation (see above), combine it with another spell (Ex: fireball becomes fire shield), or many other things. I'm sure you can think of more ways spells can be modified in this way. This system allows players to experiment with hand gestures before spells in order to discover how to change them. It introduces a lot of interesting side effects, such as master/apprentice relationships, or spell gesture hoarding by amazing wizards. Also, it puts mages back in the category they belong in battle. You wouldn't want to leave a mage sitting undisturbed while he has time to string gesture after gesture before the casts his spell.

What do you think?

[Siegfried]

While that sounds fricking sweet, how would they go about "Drawing" or casting in a certain way that isn't basically "Click and watch the hand waving."

While I generally hate the overall idea, pulling an AOC, and adding what I like to call "DDR, with swords." for casting, if you enter the combo in incorrectly, depending on the circle, you either get a lesser effect, or it botches.

So if you are trying to summon an Elemental of some form, that should be fairly tough and time consuming, however at the same time, I wouldn't like to have to basically smash keys like I'm playing Psychobilly Freakout on expert just to do a simple Recall point spell.

Just my two cents.

*returns to the depths*

[Sorjak]

Well, since this is a FPS game, i was assuming that there'd be some kind of "action screen" or something where you press tab, and that allows you to move the mouse around and click on things.

It wouldn't have to exclude movement, so you could still move and cast; it would be difficult however, (awkward fingers), and your movement would probably be slowed.

For the actual drawing of the gestures themselves, i'm still uncertain on whether it should allow sloppy drawings (with decreased effects) or not... Mostly because of the discovery aspect of it.

[Siegfried]

Discovery goes both ways, Sorjak.

One time you draw a cute bunny, and get a cute damsel. Next time, you draw that left ear a skew too far to the left, and you get a frickin' giant enemy crab.

There are only so many times I can hit a weak point for massive damage, my good man.

[Sorjak]

Hopefully MO won't be on the ps3, so we won't have to worry about that many giant enemy crabs.

I realize that the discovery system is flawed, though. Info will always leak to the internet. But that should be expected, embraced even. Some spells should be commonplace, while the most complex ones are not. And every spell is limited by your energy anyway, so it's not like a noob could cast that thundering fireball of death that he read about, even if he got the gestures down pat.

[Kraven]

Originally Posted by Sorjak

I've been thinking about this for some time, and here are some conclusions i've come up with:

<<Long brilliant message>>

What do you think?

Actually that would be a very nice addition indeed, great job, no criticism as of right now.

[Siegfried]

Originally Posted by Sorjak

Hopefully MO won't be on the ps3, so we won't have to worry about that many giant enemy crabs.

There are ALWAYS giant enemy crabs.

Always. *eyes narrow and the music gets all serious*

Originally Posted by Sorjak

I realize that the discovery system is flawed, though. Info will always leak to the internet. But that should be expected, embraced even. Some spells should be commonplace, while the most complex ones are not. And every spell is limited by your energy anyway, so it's not like a noob could cast that thundering fireball of death that he read about, even if he got the gestures down pat.

Yeah, I expected there to be an overall level. A magic user, fresh out of whatever magical college, or apprenticeship, or whatever form, shouldn't be able to fathom the mechanics of magic capable of summoning a massive Daemon, or something. Not only that, but their spiritual "Energy"/Mana whatever is probably not massive enough to sustain it.

However, those crabs... will find a way...

[catmorbid]

+1 for you, Sorjak. Excellent idea.

I've thought of something similar at times as well, and extrapolating from your idea, based on how I understood it:

Basically, you'd have these very basic spells, perhaps they should be called elements, as in fire, ice, water, time, dimension, gravity... so not only your basic 4 element cliche, but a more varied group of elements, with several functions. Then you could choose an element to increase and as you increase in the element you learn new ways to manipulate that particular element, adding a variation of effects like shape, duration, distance, area of effect, power etc.

(I didn't put any thought on those particular elements mentioned, they're just examples)

Imagining interface: When casting you're shown a wheel of symbols in the mid screen so you can choose/see what effects you can cast, and their costs in mana. If using the gesture/drawing style, it would show you the symbol you need to draw to add that effect to the spell. A failure shouldn't immediately botch the spell, but only add more mana consumption, or perhaps something like a random symbol representing concentration, you have to successfully cast to continue casting, or otherwise fail the spell and lose the mana spent so far. Or something like that

[Necromantic]

I like the idea of the more realistic spellcasting by gestures, but surely I'll pretty much mess them up. I wasn even able to always draw gestures in Black & White right.

And for the "add this and this" effect I have a pretty similar system on my game design concept in the works.

For a discovery system, info leaks will always be there, but I still like the idea.

[Kraven]

Originally Posted by Necromantic

I like the idea of the more realistic spellcasting by gestures, but surely I'll pretty much mess them up. I wasn even able to always draw gestures in Black & White right.

And for the "add this and this" effect I have a pretty similar system on my game design concept in the works.

For a discovery system, info leaks will always be there, but I still like the idea.

The Thick text this answer is meant to.

Me neither i had problems at times getting the symbols right to, exactly my point, like a swordsman may not be able to hit everytime due to lacking timing, a caster wouldnt always be able to cast hes spells due to making a wrong gesture.

[The Last Spartan]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

And here you are assuming that magic would be as pitiful and meaningless as in most games nowaday, instead of potentially extremely powerful magic. I think magic itself has been made too meaningless by making it as easy thing to do as swinging a sword. In my opinion it should be very very difficult to learn - both for you and your character, but having nearly limitless possibilities, which in the end more than meet your needs.

In good old PnP games where a high level magic user would meet an equal level warrior, if they fought, the warrior would lose a direct encounter, whereas on the lower levels, the warrior would wipe the floor with the magic user.

So basically, how difficult magic casting should be made should reflect and depend completely on how powerful magic will be.

So shouldn't it be possible for more powerful Mages to shorten the movements for the spell? It sounds like I'm trying to nitpick, but I'm interested in your theory.

[Eldrek]

You say "push a button and cast a spell" but is that not the same as "push a button and fire an arrow"? it seems like you're assuming mages wont have to aim.. Why wouldn't they? It's a first person game, you can't just select a target and start hitting buttons. You'll have to aim your spells atleast to define a target.. Then you have projectile spells like fireballs, shooting those would be similar to shooting an arrow, you'll have to take travel time as well as possibly arc just like with an arrow. I think these gestures would make things overly complicated to the point that even playing a mage would be impossible against something like an archer who essentially just points and shoots.