Armor and Weapons, the real thing

[Faidor]

I just have one request: If you are wearing full plate, I don’t care what kind of bad-ass you are, there is no way in hell you are going to be doing flips in it, and you definitely won’t be able to swim or tread water in it.
I don’t think I expect it to go into this much detail, but it would be cool if the armor worked like armor. You know, if someone goes at someone in full plate with a dagger or a scimitar—you can forget about causing damage. However, if you have a mace or a flail, you can injure a heavy armor wearer.
Likewise, spears and pikes should have reach. Otherwise, there really isn’t any point in using them over any other weapon.

[Heliopios]

An expert spear user can use a spear in ways other than 'thrust, thrust, thrust'.


Also while a scimitar, which is primarily a weapon used to cut lightly armored people, cannot do anything to plate mail, a dagger can easily, if the attacker has the strength and the leverage to punch through the armor, because the dagger is a stabbing weapon, not cutting.

[OMGPIE]

Well no normal human will do back flips you are right maybe there are humans with enough skill too in MO OR there is races that are stronger generally and can do such things. Open your mind.

[Zigkirby]

You can tread water with plate mail on. Spoilers.

[Vanndal]

I have thought about how this would work in a game without actually destroying gameplay and here's a idea I have come up with on how to deal with armor mobility penalty.

Instead of just armor mobility restriction, we impose a encumbrance level (or weight for layman), agility (or dexterity) penalty, and a slight mobility reduction percentage.

A person with high amounts of strength is more likely to be wearing plate armor and actually move more effectively then one who doesn't, so in terms of encumbrance I'm referring to natural encumbrance to mobility and action restriction that can be applied to both weapons and armor. Therefore armor weight penalty actually comes into play while wearing any armor, including inventory and weapon weight, and with high enough strength they can overcome the encumbrance penalty.

On the other hand, more plated styled armors, tend to have a higher restriction on mobility in general and in a sense it is actually just robbing the wearer of his agility, so in order to compensate it, the wearer has to get enough agility to actually overcome this penalty, to move effectively in plate armor.

Third would be a slight mobility restriction, in that the armor will undoubtedly have, lets say 30% mobility restriction for full plate that can work to crafting advantages in that a crafter can effectively lower that mobility restriction %, and enchanters can enchant "Mobility" (random enchant I made up) to also decrease the mobility restriction.

In a gist, armor takes training to wear and not just anyone can don on full plate and be instantly proficient in using them in combat. Only idiots put on full plate when he has low strength and agility to begin with. Though the armor is naturally restricting since it does prevent certain movements to be possible, a armor smith or enchanter can tailor it to reduce mobility restriction either through special joint manufacturing and or the armor simply is magically made to not restrict movement as much.

[OMGPIE]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

a armor smith or enchanter can tailor it to reduce mobility restriction either through special joint manufacturing and or the armor simply is magically made to not restrict movement as much.

So would that mean like skin tight plate? I think that for that to be possible the armor would be too thin to really protect against a lot. I think that there could be some metals that have ya know magical properties and all that stuff that could be skin tight and thin and still block stuff but no normal steel can be efficiently modified to be that handy. That is where things like dragon skin come into play. Dragon skin could be one of those magical property armor types that can have huge armor amounts but still not restrict movement very much.

[Vanndal]

well I did mention special joints. Say instead of 3 piece for the knee, you use 8 piece of smaller metal plate instead to allow a more fluid movement. Skin tight plate will actually be a lot more restricting then you think, think splintmail, since the main reason you could even move in plate is because there is actually room to move inside the armor, and the 2nd would be how joints are created.

If you don't know what I mean by putting more pieces into a join then let me explain this way.

If you've never worn plate mail for some kind of fair then at least try to get a picture and think of how it would be like.

Say you have a plate chest piece that covers your entire chest and a small portion of the chest piece is a waist guard. Normally bending forward or backward (etc) will actually be quite a chore and restricting if the armor was skin tight. Since the armor will likely constrict upper body movement, therefore instead of your normal plate mail you design the armor with a bit of extra room for you to move your body inside the armor, and by lowering the collar area around your neck and replace it with a 2nd plate piece attached to your chain mail that is located underneath your chest plate so that it will not restrict your neck movements and allow you to have more upper body motion of forward and backward (etc).

[OMGPIE]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

well I did mention special joints. Say instead of 3 piece for the knee, you use 8 piece of smaller metal plate instead to allow a more fluid movement.

Hmm that would be pretty spiffy.

[Faidor]

This is a great idea, and if other players can make the armor you buy, and there are special requests, who says it can't be done? I also like how you mentioned the comparison in using armor according to your size and strength and the penalties. All this I think can add that extra bit of realism to the game.

[Torgrim]

IRL 13-14th century fullplate armor were actul quite flexible, althou you cant swim in it and so on but you could run in it if you fell down you could get up pretty easy.........well i saw a show on history channel about this and i was quite suprised how mobile the knights actual were.

[Nagoth]

I can agree that strength could be a factor to the amount of armor worn, but remember, if you're smaller, but not weaker, the armor weighs less, even though your total capacity is less, so there should be no restriction due to character height, only strength. (given the option to alter height etc. )

Better armor, as in master crafted etc. should be easier to wear, though there should also be skills for wearing armor, because a new person who dons his first set of full plate will have a much more difficult time than one that was practically born in it.

Different restists on armors for varying damage types is, as they've emntioned above, also important. The dagger against a full plate armor would be better used in joints etc, while a lance would be preferred for punching through the plate. Use a 1h sword, and you'll bruise the person wearing the armor, but you'll hardly ever draw blood.

There is, however, limits to where realism ends and fantasy starts. A master swordsman should be able to do lots of damage regardless of the opponents armor, while a truly strong person should be able to use brute force to achieve the same goal. A half orc would be well inclined to use the latter, and there's very few of them today, unless you count certain mother-in-laws

[Veith]

@Nagoth, thats it, anyone who has a bit knowledge about weapons and armor useable for warfare is knowing, better equipment means everytime only easier to use. But a best balanced, best quality sword is not more deadly than a cheap a bit unbalanced weapon. If both are made for use. Best quality armor (sure must repeat it, for warfare) means mainly as light as possible comparing to cheaper armor. But so if you have knowledge about former military you are knowing, also merceneries 'the professionals' using very good quality armor, but then fewer parts of that armor, probably fewer decorations, not guilted and so on, depends also on the financial possibilities sure. But some welldone armorparts are better than any cheap useless full armor. That means only more weight for nothing usefull. Those folks were pfofessionals with a good sight for 'tools'. I have the luck and researched many original armor and could discuss with other folks with active professional knowledge like me for the real stuff, and its clear we found no single piece of platearmor and crafted for warfare, not hardened in effective way. So again professionals like medieval crafters used best tools for their crafting and a mercenery you can see also as a learned crafter also only using the best, and there was enough fine stuff produced. The market was big.
And i see no reason why we as 'warriors' should be able to use scrap for our combat. I would never go to any fight also in any fanatsyworld if im knowing i have only scrap, so such things may not be possible, its stupid gameplay. Or you think you will play a farmer who must use his fork (could be anyway deadly)? But surely not.
Better weapon means lighter weapon but with anyway best hardness and durability of the material. Bulky equipment means everytime you are bader be able to use it, means useless equipment, something for the Scrap metal press. Making something fine with the expensive material instead of designing scrap. Thats why also in former days you will find seldom warfareweapons nearly useless. If useless they would not be used, thats all. Today the same if something will be produced and its nearly useless its soon away from the market. And good equipment is something essential for a warrior.
Remember, any steel is something not cheap, especially in former times, to produce something useless with such a material is nearly impossible for the learned crafter, an unlearned will never get and afford such material like steel for crafting weapons. A dilettante will not craft that and will get no customers and also not the resources. So dont make dilettantistic crafting ingame possible. Only stuff really usefull. And apprentice also dont mean dilettant.

One point is factly totally false converted for surely all MMORPG's. The best armored fellows were the fellows charging first the enemies. They used their armor in combination with their weapon for the charge, the armor was also a weapon like a huge projectile. Surely if mounted then also at least the front of the mount armored, but for charges not for nearly immobile towers. I would be glad if armor would be finally in one MMORPG really armor and not only a curious gameplayconstruction.

[Nagoth]

Naturally, some valid points here, but at the start of the game, when players start crafting gear, we will use items of lesser quality due to availability and price. I am sure we could ahve purchased armor from NPC vendors, but the pice of those pieces would reflect the material and craftmanship as well.

So, for the new player, the poorly made armor would be a good way to go, as one can afford it, and bad armor is better than no armor really.

At higher levels, you'll be looking at the best of materials, the lightest constructions, unless its mounted combat, and usability rather than gilded edges. However, a master craftsman can take the best armor and add a bit of fancy looking things to it, without having to compensate with the quality.

In a Game, I would like to see nice armors that are still usable, the option to add colors, spikes etc. to the set.

[papoos]

Would be nice if the creators were to try wearing Leather, Mail and plate but also try to perfom normal day to day things and some of the athletical parts to see how they ferform in such armor.

Same goes for weapons.

[Nagoth]

I've been in a bit of Live RP, though the heaviest I've worn is a full sett of chain. Its definitly restricting, and I wouldn't try swimming in the olympics, but standard actions are fine. Everything wears you down a bit extra though, and swinging a sword (or two, as I prefer) get really heavy after a bit of time.

It is, however, yet another strength to build up. I wasn't nearly as tired on my 10th time as I was on the first, and I could keep going much longer, doing consecutive fights etc.
I'd rather wear the armor though, and get hurt a bit, than trying to dodge and block all the attacks and get really hurt.
A female cahin bikini wouldn't weigh much though, and as we've crearly seen in other games, offer just as good protection as a full set of male platemail


Hopefully, they will do motion capturing, or have done, and the actors should know a thing or two about wearing armor, as I am sure they wish to get as realistic fighting into the game as possible. Trust the Devs, I am sure they have a few braincells between them