making humans unique

[Traceur]

-deleted-

[Tenclaw]

Do we need to make too much different?
I hate hate hate the "nerf this nerf that" folks...

why not let halforks be stronger?
If I want to play a human I will play a human, no matter if its not "flavor of the month" race...

let the roleplaying be the reward of choosing a race.
let the orcs be stronger, the dwarves sturdier and the elves nimbler.
I dont care.
I am born a human and I will stand against everything that wants to destroy the things I love.
And the victory will be sweeter if the underdog will overcome his "betters" ...

I am not for balance at all costs...

[Taranus]

I'm unaware of the 'stat' classes in this, but it's always been my view that Human's are more intuitive, making conclusions straight away that are usually correct, capable of making quick decisions.

Not sure how this could be implemented, but any sort of luck- or charisma-based advantage would seem to be appropriate.

-Tara-

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Tenclaw

Do we need to make too much different?
I hate hate hate the "nerf this nerf that" folks...

why not let halforks be stronger?
If I want to play a human I will play a human, no matter if its not "flavor of the month" race...

let the roleplaying be the reward of choosing a race.
let the orcs be stronger, the dwarves sturdier and the elves nimbler.
I dont care.
I am born a human and I will stand against everything that wants to destroy the things I love.
And the victory will be sweeter if the underdog will overcome his "betters" ...

I am not for balance at all costs...

What?

[Shurt]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

What?

If you haven't noticed, he likes to roleplay. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what he enjoys.

Races should be unique, but more importantly balanced...

[OMGPIE]

We are the most stupid race! Meaning we will go to war and stuff like that for no reason whatsoever. You all know what I mean just look at celebreties and what they say on camera.

[Kraven]

The beauty and also most ugly part of a human is our ability to follow our emotions blindly, so give the human race something to reflect that.
By giving some "mood" abilities, Rage, sorrow, thoughtful, etc, giving small boosts to different stats/skills.

[OMGPIE]

Originally Posted by Kraven

The beauty and also most ugly part of a human is our ability to follow our emotions blindly, so give the human race something to reflect that.
By giving some "mood" abilities, Rage, sorrow, thoughtful, etc, giving small boosts to different stats/skills.

Viking berserkers FTW!!!

[SukaD]

Would it be possible to gain more/better advantages from religion?
I think some sort of faith advantage would be acceptable but in a world where religion is non-disputable I don't know if it would be acceptable

[kurai]

If races are balanced, then there is no joy in playing different ones other than the way they look. But also, if they are unbalanced, many will flock to one race.

But if this game is what they say, skills as a player will define who your character is, then even the worst of race stat wise could be the best of characters.

Unbalanced races, pros and cons. When it comes down to it, it depends on how well you play your class. I'm all for that.

[catmorbid]

I believe, in most games and lores, while humans do not have any extraordinary abilities (they wouldn't quite be humans then, would they?), they are given the most freedom in their choices. They can choose to join any guild/class, wield any weapon/armor.

They are also described as people who can easily adapt to situations and learn new skills. This could be an important factor in MO as well, having learning new skills be a tad easier, maybe something like, instantly forgetting a low-level skill with at least x number of ranks (but not more than n) and converting it for a new skill with x/y number of ranks, in very short time (using the passive learning system). So if you'd ever come up to a situation where you'd need some rope-making, you could in an instant learn the basics of it, just by sacrificing your useless gardening skill

In the great old rolemaster, humans had a +5 bonus to Strength and Self-Discipline. That was refreshingly different, as instead of being the average, they were actually given some uniqueness as well. A very minor and actually rather insignificant bonus, but it just felt better than zeroes everywhere.

But, if you really want to make humans unique, don't have them. Instead, you could have a new race, which looks like humans, acts out like humans - basically is a human race, but isn't. Add a new name for the race and any unique abilities you see fit, ranging from telepathy to growable wings, and then you have a real unique human race.

[Slyther]

wow, interesting thought having something to replace humans. but i feel that there is quite a few people who like to play as humans and mabie because they like the basic things. just a thought.

[Sava]

Humans here are presented as knightly feudal kingdom (you have seen great walls, full metal armor ). So, let them simply be the golden mean. So like in other games they will have classes in all "directions". May be let them have their own armour style and some bonuses in sword fencing and shielding while orks like two-handed axes and mauls (like barbarians).

[Blixa]

Humans are the mainstream race and are played by a very high amount of players with different playstyles.

Orcs for example... of course there's the orc-warlock, but most orc-players want to be an axe-swinging meele-orc and so the orc has a bonus on meele attacks and maybe stamina. Elves are nearly always ranged/magic.

But Humans... there's the arc-mage, the warlock, the sniper, the knight, the footman... if they'd get a bonus on int, all the meeles would cry and if they'd get a bonus and str all the mages would cry.

So imo it's best to overtake the "ordinary" human as a medicore race in everything.
Oh and don't tell me that humans are a less-played race - in nearly every MMORPG the human population is between 30-50% even with more than 5 races to choose from.

[Neek]

Originally Posted by OMGPIE

Viking berserkers FTW!!!

I've always wanted to place a race that can train into becoming a zerker. Insane dmg for a short period of time, but once the effect wears off he will most likely die. Barbarians in Shadowbane had the zerker ability which increased their health (like an insta heal) and bonus dmg. I would like to see that option again.

Another idea is from a book series called Rifts. There was a certain kind of character called "juicers." They had augmented physical attributes (pumping themselves with man-made enhancers/drugs) but their overall life expectancy was reduced when compared to a human. Since they were extremely powerful and if anything annoying to have to fight, they had a period of recovery/vulnerable.

Only way I could see this implemented is having a juicer with a limited amount of playing time allowed before permadeath and install some weaknesses as to not make him/her completely OP. One way is make it to where it takes twice/three times longer to increase their skills because of their mental unbalanced state.

If anything I would love to see MO have a character that's completely insane. Drawbacks aside I would roll one for sure just for the uniqueness.

[Death Saved]

Well considering that most races have a single religion/deity why not make humans able to take up any of the other races religion and thus inherit certain ability's from that god the elvish god wold give you wisdom (read as magic) while the orcish god would give strength , yes i know what you are going to say : "Oh but then they would be able to change god's whenever they need a certain buff" but NO!!!, gods would require you to worship them for quite a bit of time before you get anything usefull out of them and changing to another god would lower their favor towards you.

of course the gods would be split into order,chaos and neutral.

other races would be able to worship other gods but they would have a hard time raising there favor compared to that of there original god.

Or you can make humans better at alchemy/technology.

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Death Saved

Or you can make humans better at alchemy/technology.

Yes, give the humans machine guns and rocket launchers!

Jokes aside, maybe giving humans bonuses in certain skill advancment. Maybe things like Engineering or Alchemy, maybe even crafting. Maybe make humans the inquisitive and curious race that way the bonuses in certain skill advancement would make sense.

[Vanndal]

I know this may defeat the purpose, but... why not just do away with the attribute bonus.

The main two reason why we believe humans are the most idiotic and/or the most intelligent and intuitive is because we are humans - and there isn't the other fantasy races in real life to prove that they are not what we say they are.

If races granted advantages, then there should be disadvantages.

A bat can hear really well, but they are blind.

A cheetah can move really fast, but he is small for a predator and must only move fast when they hunt or die of wasting their energy and starve to death.

A humming bird can flap it's wings few thousand times per a second to create a floating effect, but has to be light and eat very little but often or else his abilities will be hindered.

If you want something that puts you above others, then you must give up something to give others a weakness they can abuse. Since you will obviously abuse your advantage.

That is balance.
-----
So instead of having pros and cons.

Why not just do away with them, so that everyone/thing is equal, regardless of race.

The best balance is no difference.

If you want to roleplay it doesn't matter if the race grants you a bonus, since you will end up roleplaying that character that specific way anyways if you are doing so according to the race/gender/profession of that character.
-----
That said... if you insist on having other races gain benefits above a human, then allow humans to choose heritage that grants them different bonuses.

A orc wouldn't really be stronger then a human if it wasn't for it's tribalism life style.

A elf wouldn't be nimble if they didn't follow the tradition of being the protector of the great balance and act as rangers who scour the forest for hunting down only animals that are destroying the balance.

Since those races have a heritage that grants them bonus to a certain ability/skill.

It is also true that humans have different heritage such as:

• A martial art family.
• A Noble Upbringing.
• Child of an artisan.
• Tarzan (lol I know, but I just have to say it).

Since it is true that humans ARE the jack of all trade, but that's only skimming the top, because obviously humans are actually quite specialized.

[catmorbid]

Well enough said Vanndal, I think we're going somewhere, but you can't just ignore one thing: genetics. When talking about a whole different race, you are in fact talking about whole different genome. I know this is fantasy and it's not proper to discuss genetics, but regardless, it's an important factor, which is present in our reality and should reflect in a deep fantasy world as well

I agree on your heritage idea, it would probably work well and add your unique factor; each race would have a different set of heritage options to choose from. There should however be clearly genetic differences as well, like naturally better or worse dark vision, size differences, intelligence differences, psyche/personality variations (orcs are more aggressive etc.). The differences shouldn't be major and dominating, but they should give a distinct advantage/disadvantage.

Humans could be unique on such a system, just by elaborating on the jack-of-all-trades thing and offering them much more heritage options than other races. Orcs could still be bigger and stronger in comparison, and so on.

[ccoa]

I think the heritage idea is pretty cool. I mean I like to play humans, but not the standard human. I like to mix things up, I mean not every human is the same.

[Mitsu]

Why not give us an X amount of stat points to spread out as we see fit and that determins the difference when starting out ?

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Mitsu

Why not give us an X amount of stat points to spread out as we see fit and that determins the difference when starting out ?

Well that's not exactly the question. The question is what are the 'starting stats' so if everything was at 0 it just goes back to Vanndal who suggested to eliminate the attribute/stat bonuses. And like Traceur said it would then just be based on skin color and lore.

[Mitsu]

Originally Posted by ccoa

Well that's not exactly the question. The question is what are the 'starting stats' so if everything was at 0 it just goes back to Vanndal who suggested to eliminate the attribute/stat bonuses. And like Traceur said it would then just be based on skin color and lore.

Well than it should be based more on lore. For example if one race in the games lore are mainly magic studying people then they should have advantages as far as stats that are connected with magic skills, And likewise for warrior type races from the games lore. I dont know how much of the lore has been written up so its hard to say really.

[Nagoth]

Well, there are some good points in the discussion here, but one thing is still very important :
You cannot eliminate stats, as they are a vital part of this game. They will decide strength, int, wisdom and whatever else they decide to put in.

An orc may have the ABILITY to gain more strength than a human, but it all depends on what you do in the game. Read books all day long, and you can't expect your biceps to grow. Lift stones all day long, or swing a big sword, and your strength will grow, along with the appropriate skills.

But, like it was mentioned, you cant have Pro's without Con's. The orc has the potential to be stronger than a human, but at the same time, its wisdom would probably not reach the same levels. (just an example)

Choose a background, and you may have a better start in a certain direction, but it should in no way allow you to gain a higher max stat.
humans are, in every game, the middle way, the "standard". You could have mixed heritage, which would allow small stat changes in certain directions, but that, as I see it atleast, should be it.

As you can untrain and train skills as you choose, selecting a race with a lesser potential for i.e strength would never allow you to become as great a fighter as another race, so your choices are somewhat limited in comparrison.

Choose the middle way, and all doors are open, just not to the extremes some races would take a class.

Balance is key, but not in the way of everyone having the same stats, but where every build should have equal opertunity to win a PvP fight.
The glory of US was customizability, and that with only one race. With multiple options, it could become great indeed, where diversity is concerned.

[Vanth]

Usually in these games, the human "special ability" is that they are more flexible - more able to switch from one task to another. This could be reflected by them taking less effort to increase skills, or perhaps they lose skills more slowly when they are not using them.

That brings up another thought though. Will the rate of increase of particular skills with practice be race dependent? We already know that half-orcs are not good with magic, but how will that be implemented? Will they just raise magic skills more slowly than other races?

[Fyrburn]

Humanity seems to always get a generic "bit of everything" stat boost rather than a specialization.

Usually because "humans" are the basis for everything else because it's all we know to relate to in the real world.

Another reason would be the controversy of stating that we, as humans, are the weakest in any given area. No doubt someone will take offense at humans being portrayed as weak, ignorant, or just ugly.

The problem is that we are, but only in a stereotypical fantasy setting.

Elves are prettier, orcs are stronger, and goblins are smarter.

It would be interesting to see a deviation from the typical heirarchy of fantasy that invariably does pose humanity as the basis for everything else to be modelled from.

What about our natural ability to develop and adapt?
I don't see any other species on earth with broadband internet connections or PS3s.

Cat people have night vision, we have special goggles to match them.
Orcs with brute force? We have technologically superior armour to counter it.
Even just bundle it all into giving humans a stat boost in general crafting speciality.


The examples I gave above might come across a bit too modern for a fantasy setting, but you know what I mean.

How about Orcs always hit the hardest, elves always move faster, gnomes always cast the best spells, but humans have a much higher success rate at crafting.

Not all qualities lie in combat.