Casters vs Melee

[Dominisi]

I've been playing AoC since it came out. The main thing that I can see is it takes skill to play melee, not so much for casters. The combos that melee have to use ads versatility, fun, and immersion to the game, but then when you realize that the casters are just clicking buttons (like all other MMOs) it kinda takes away from the fun.

I propose any kind of casting needs SOMETHING besides targeting somone and clicking. Like they have to press a certain sequence of buttons to get the correct casts - not just click.

[Vanndal]

I don't know how to settle this, but it has been proposed by many on how to create a spell casting system that will try to prevent spell casters from being way more powerful then warriors.

Though as much as I hate the rock paper scissor of Mage > Warrior > Ranger > Mage.
In the usual MMORPG's out nowadays, but some abilities can actually be logically deduced to be more effective against certain types of archetype.

[Shurt]

I think the way mages fall to warriors in 3 hits is enough of a balance no?

[Ecco]

Probably if the caster is still an beginner of magics, I'm not sure but even the most-battle hardened warrior would have a tough time fighting a master of magics depending on the situation.

As for the OP, I'm not sure about the sequence casting, sure it adds a slight innovation in casting, but in combat it would probably take too long to focus and your opponent would stop you from getting your sequence spell casted. It just boils down to memorizes which to key to press and I don't plan to do that when I want kill mobs and having to do it everytime, would be more work on the fingers.


It's a nice little feature but it's still clicking in the end, with you adding more keys to press and sooner or later you'll get bored of it.

[Brynjolf]

Mmm how about drawing certain shapes or runes on the screen to cast spells? You could have different colors/elements where you can choose from(red=fire, blue=water, etc.).

Imagine you're in first person view and you choose to cast a simple fireball.
You pick the color red and while holding down the right/left mousebutton(or any other button) you could move your hands around drawing a circle for example. The better you draw, the more powerful the spells are.
For a more mighty spell you'd have to draw more complex shapes or a sequence of shapes.
So the game would be callenging for casters also. They'd have to remember their spell and have to draw it as good as possible.

And if you have Opera or Firefox(with special addon) you could train your mouse gestures also while not logged in. Haha

If it's well-thought-out i think this could actually work(if i didn't miss something essential ).

[Veith]

Delete all casters for combat and we get a first fantasyMMOG combat will be really possible to play.

[The Last Spartan]

And then you lose a third of the player base.


Gf.

And drawing runes on the screen? So I have to hover my mouse over the target, then draw a rune, placing my mouse away from the target, then trying to re position my mouse before it fires?

Unless you have a key to release the spell, but even then, the spells should be pretty damaging. Lets just wait to see what happens, because I don't think they have implemented this kind of system, nor do I think they will.

[Lonesin]

Since there wont be any locking I think you guys under estimate how hard it will be to hit your opponent from a distance. This would especially be true when your attacks are projectiles or if there is a slight delay (for say a small AOE spell that rains ice from the sky). Because you're attacks will be ranged you're targets are going to be pretty small. I think the challenge of this alone should help balance out magic and keep the combat lively.

[Brynjolf]

Originally Posted by Veith

Delete all casters for combat and we get a first fantasyMMOG combat will be really possible to play.

Hehe, we had that discussion yesterday and i agree in principle. A mmorpg without magic would be awesome.

Originally Posted by The Last Spartan

And then you lose a third of the player base.

And thats why noone even tries to make something new in the so called "fantasy" genre where 99% of the products are the same.
But we all know that money rules the world and projects that are too uncommon don't get the financial support they would need.
Everyone wants to have a bit of the newly swollen MMORPG cake.
Let's take a working concept, add some more classes, rename some skills, add one or two features from old UO to catch the masses, but don't make it too complex to not scare the people off...
On the one hand i can fully understand this. Games are just business too. But on the other hand i'm still hoping that someone's got the balls to make a step in a new direction and doesn't go down thereby.

And drawing runes on the screen? So I have to hover my mouse over the target, then draw a rune, placing my mouse away from the target, then trying to re position my mouse before it fires?

Unless you have a key to release the spell, but even then, the spells should be pretty damaging. Lets just wait to see what happens, because I don't think they have implemented this kind of system, nor do I think they will.

I also don't think they'll implement this, it was just a thought.
You're right that its gonna be a bit complicated when you can't target a target as Lonesin says.
Another approach would be to have a casting system like it was in DMoMM, which would be one of the most realistic ways to implement i think.

[Vanndal]

Originally Posted by Lonesin

Since there wont be any locking I think you guys under estimate how hard it will be to hit your opponent from a distance. This would especially be true when your attacks are projectiles or if there is a slight delay (for say a small AOE spell that rains ice from the sky). Because you're attacks will be ranged you're targets are going to be pretty small. I think the challenge of this alone should help balance out magic and keep the combat lively.

Sorry but thats the basis of all FPS games...

You are almost saying that a FPS game is hard to play.

Now think how hard it would be to try to get up to someone holding a rifle with a knife when you start off at least 30 yards away from the target with barely any obstacles to block the bullets.

AND, if you say bullets are way faster then a spell would go in FPS games, then you probably never played Unreal Tournament and used the "Bio Gun", "Shock Rifle", "Link Gun", "Rocket Launcher", "Redeemer", "Minigun", "Flak Cannon", or simply put: 80% of the guns in Unreal Tournament.

Unreal Tournament allowed players to move at a extremely rapid pace as well (higher then most FPS games out there; just to name off a few: Counter Strike, Rainbow Six, Half Life, and etc.), and even then it was hard to kill moderately skilled players who used the slowest Bio Gun with a Melee Impact Hammer (Which is a 1 hit kill on targets with no armor after a full charge). Also the "maps" were designed to give every player a lot of cover so that guns can be avoided by running around an obstacle, Mortal Online is designed to reflect fantasy terrain (which is real life terrain) and that would mean that there will literally be places that is almost like a flat plain with no obstacles. (Any retort about skill difference between players is basically saying that the game should be unbalanced, so that melee players need to have more skill then a range character).

Mortal Online IS a MMOFPS(RPG) you know...

and if you say that Mortal Online is not Unreal Tournament, then I'll just reply with the fact that Unreal is not the only FPS game in existence that can be substituted for the example given.


P.S. If it felt like I was flaming you then sorry, but I highly believe that opinion of yours was very unthoughtful, and felt more along the lines of a "Pro-caster overpower" opinion.

I by far am not against spell casting at all, in fact I'm very much for spell casting, but I think that there should be a novel revamp of the current spell casting system thats used by majority of the games available in the world, and that Mortal Online should not follow the footstep of creating a game that is unbalanced to demote a "skill based game".

[Lonesin]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

Sorry but thats the basis of all FPS games...

You are almost saying that a FPS game is hard to play.

Now think how hard it would be to try to get up to someone holding a rifle with a knife when you start off at least 30 yards away from the target with barely any obstacles to block the bullets.

AND, if you say bullets are way faster then a spell would go in FPS games, then you probably never played Unreal Tournament and used the "Bio Gun", "Shock Rifle", "Link Gun", "Rocket Launcher", "Redeemer", "Minigun", "Flak Cannon", or simply put: 80% of the guns in Unreal Tournament.


Unreal Tournament allowed players to move at a extremely rapid pace as well (higher then most FPS games out there; just to name off a few: Counter Strike, Rainbow Six, Half Life, and etc.), and even then it was hard to kill moderately skilled players who used the slowest Bio Gun with a Melee Impact Hammer (Which is a 1 hit kill on targets with no armor after a full charge). Also the "maps" were designed to give every player a lot of cover so that guns can be avoided by running around an obstacle, Mortal Online is designed to reflect fantasy terrain (which is real life terrain) and that would mean that there will literally be places that is almost like a flat plain with no obstacles. (Any retort about skill difference between players is basically saying that the game should be unbalanced, so that melee players need to have more skill then a range character).

Mortal Online IS a MMOFPS(RPG) you know...

and if you say that Mortal Online is not Unreal Tournament, then I'll just reply with the fact that Unreal is not the only FPS game in existence that can be substituted for the example given.


P.S. If it felt like I was flaming you then sorry, but I highly believe that opinion of yours was very unthoughtful, and felt more along the lines of a "Pro-caster overpower" opinion.

I by far am not against spell casting at all, in fact I'm very much for spell casting, but I think that there should be a novel revamp of the current spell casting system thats used by majority of the games available in the world, and that Mortal Online should not follow the footstep of creating a game that is unbalanced to demote a "skill based game".

All I'm saying is that a lot of spells are going to miss their targets. I'm also assuming you wont be able to shoot off spells at the rate you can fire semi automatic guns (sorry I haven't played UT and don't know about the properties of some of those slower guns and maybe they will be similar to a spell). And then there is mana pools. There is no point into arguing about how hard it actually is to hit the target because there is no practical way to measure that.

Oh and if this is a problem for spell casting why would the same problem not apply to ranged attacks? It would seem to me that arrows would go faster than projectile spells.

And I never said nothing else should be done to make it harder. To me the previous posters were acting like every spell was going to kill some one. I mean having to do some little mini challenge that takes 3 seconds just to shoot off a fireball that might damage someone 30%(I have no clue what kind of damage dealt to health ratio they are aiming for...) IF it hits them just seems like a little much to me. Which is why I said I think they were underestimating how hard it would be to hit an opponent, not that it will be particularly hard.

[Drakus]

I agree with the whole AoC melee vs casters and I just hope that in Mortal Online there is just as amount of skill and effort that goes into casting as there is in melee.

I guess we'll just have to wait to find out.

[Veith]

Originally Posted by Brynjolf

Hehe, we had that discussion yesterday and i agree in principle. A mmorpg without magic would be awesome.

Thats it!
The Last Spartan wrote 'you would lose a third of the player base'
for me not important if the game loses me because there is such a combat magic
I cannot demand what i really see as a gameplay killer, for me such magic is gameplaykiller (sure for combat), nothing more.

Supplement:
If there will be known 'combat-magic' then please like a kind of ranged weapon, the caster must aim, 'shoot', hit like with a bow, no autohits, then its ok, but anyway its a kind of 'effect' i dont like in fantasy.....bombs and rockets.

[The Last Spartan]

There's no autohits, it's all player aimed. Mages will probably have to get close to their target to hit them, unless they're a damn good shot.

Magic hasn't been used to it's full potential because no game has been able to. MO and DFO should be able to.

[silenced]

how to balance magic (ranged) vs. melee ?


impossible ...

[Excelsior]

Hmmm. Magic is one of my favorite aspects of a fantasy game. The balancing it out part is hard though because magic is just better usally. I mean swords and bows are awsome but they can't summon a demon.

[auutumn]

A sequence for casters is a tough call and I can only think that for some spells, based on the school of magic, the caster would be required to:

1. Be within a certai range to cast and a closer range to be effective.
2. Carry components for a spell.
3. Have a clear line of sight, no other mobs or allies in his path.

If a caster came up against another caster or a sword with magical protection, they they could use a shielding system. Once the spell is ready, instantly pick where it hits, looking at the enemies sheilds to know were they are weakest.

[Lonesin]

auutumns post reminded me of something. This is nothing new, but I think about all spells should have consumables. That being spells require components, basic attacks from a wand would have charges that would have to be recharged, or the wand simply is destroyed when they reach zero. I don't really understand where the whole magic will be overpowered is coming from to be honest. In all the MMO's I've played ranged and melee have been relatively balanced give or take, and those are all with auto locking.

edit- That last part isn't an accusation, I truthfully don't see why magic would be over powered (assuming damage amounts for range vs melee are similar to main stream MMO's) so if someone would care to explain it...

[Veith]

Originally Posted by The Last Spartan

There's no autohits, it's all player aimed. Mages will probably have to get close to their target to hit them, unless they're a damn good shot.

Magic hasn't been used to it's full potential because no game has been able to. MO and DFO should be able to.

You surely recognized im not a big fan of mages but clear thats my prob
No autohits is for me acceptable also i think mages will be again only the compensation for ingame-missing modern artillery and its really something i dislike nearly in all fantasygames.

[Unomat]

I've also regularly come up with the parallel of modern artillery for mages, Veith, the big difference being that modern artillery either needs to be deployed (hence become extremely vulnerable, requiring a solidly held position) or mobile with heavy defenses. The only possible exception are bazookas.

To draw on that parallel (mutatis mutandis) mages would either
1) need a safe position and several shots to finally lock onto a specific location in order to do AoE damage (mortar model, FF check!),
2) be put in a sort of siege towers & boxed in by a squad of knights so their concentration cannot be broken lest they blow up their own part of the battlefield (tank model, again FF check on hit) or
3) run the risk of backfire when shooting from the hip (bazooka model).
That's all assuming ONE mage is capable of doing (near-)lethal damage with ONE shot. The different drawbacks (requiring several shots to get a lock, be ridden into battle at the risk of blowing up everything around them or run the risk of backfire) would offer an opponent a fighting chance to balance the encounter or make a run for it, whichever is the better option ^^

What I'd really like to see though is mages doing combined rituals to achieve a bigger effect instead of one being able to do lethal damage, e.g. when 4 mages get together to make up the four corners of a compass, they effectively can achieve a mortar effect much, much faster than one mage on his own.

I'd even go so far as to imagine invisible magic paint being handed out by mages to the more stealthy types and wait for their signal that the opponent leaders have been marked, then let a circle of mages summon a couple of demons and order them to only hunt and kill the marked ones

In short, I'd like magic to be used in a way opponents are always on their toes, but the results of using magic shouldn't always be a guaranteed hit and instant kill.

[stygiant]

I don't understand why spell casters can't be melee range - let the casters use heavy armor just like any soldier, but rather than holding a shield and sword they rather use magic to protect themselves and dmg their enemies - such as maybe summoning a sword of fire in order to dmg.

[Etwynn]

Gandalf can own any non-caster. I therefore propose making casters totally overpowered because it's the most realistic for the fantasy setting.


err....hmm

[BloodofDragons]

well i love the system that asheron's call uses and wish more mmos would do the same but it's not true.

in asheron's call it is possible to manually dodge war spells and ranged weapons (bow/xbow/thrown) simply by sidesteping. i hate the fact that in mmos now a days any spell cast or ranged weapon locks on like a homing missle. in most games, even hiding behinde a tree or rock has no effect on whether the attack will hit. even after the attack is luanched. it's gay because you see the projectile hit the tree and stop there but you still take the damage.

mages in asheron's call are still the most powerful PvP roles because they can vuln say fire resist then attack with fire spells hitting as much as 500-1000 but being able to sidestep the fire spells somewhat counter balances this except for melee roles.

i pray that mortal does not use the homing missle system and allow every ranged attack hit reguardless of dodging or hiding behind something. including fighting with NPCs/critters. every ranged attack should fly strait and true although some spells like D&Ds magic missle may have tracking but at weaker damage.

[Lonesin]

BloodofDragons, since Mortal Online will use real time combat you will have to aim your ranged (and melee) attacks to make sure they hit. You'll definitely be able to dodge spells and arrows by moving out of the way.

[The Last Spartan]

And sword attacks if you're good enough.

[Sava]

There many factors that devs may control, and I can not understand why every mage will be overpowered. I see only nice things in FPS system.

Every mage needs to aim.
Every mage has fixed amount of mana.
Spelldamage may be various.
There may be different simple types of attacks, for instance : fireball (arcane missile, lighting spell), wall of fire, various wave types. At least spells that works like weapons in UT.
And no one says that this attacks cannot be avoided , shields or potions or salamander armor =)).

And btw mage has much less health thatn any warrior.