Trading, goods market ect

[Torgrim]

One feature i truly miss in a fantasy MMO and thats being a true merchant.

( and no selling crafted items is not what i mean )

You know when you for an example see that an small village has lack off wood so the NPC merchant will buy wood for more then the average price.

Either you go out in the woods and get some ( Lumbering skill rec) or you know that other village 30min from here has a surplus of wood to sell.

Well you get the point

Then finally we have a good use of carts and good use of a basic goods market that you can earn money from ( or lose if you getting robbed by a player)

Instead of the same ol same ol in other fantasy MMOs you can earn good ammount of money if you can read the market well.

The only game i know who has this system is EVE and it worked pretty good and you could earn some good cash but not as much as mining some rare ores.

Any thoughts?

[egonboy]

I like the idea. But it should actually reflect player action as well. If you chop down enough trees in one spot but sell the wood to another, then markets raise for the place where your taking the tree's from and drop where you sell it but make it so that it takes a large scale effort to even try to effect the market. Like thousands and thousands of lumber sold or cut.

[Danach]

What I would love to see in terms of markets and all that stuff is the ability to steal from them. Anyone else think as much?

[Darknomad]

One problem with this is that if you are thief you could steal the wood in places with a low amount then sell it back for a huge profit.

[Torgrim]

Originally Posted by Darknomad

One problem with this is that if you are thief you could steal the wood in places with a low amount then sell it back for a huge profit.

And how do you manage to steal a ton och wood?

Its not a few logs we are talking about.

[Darknomad]

Grinding
And if it is in shortage the more you steal the higher the sell back price

[Wonderboy2402]

How about a player market?

No I do not mean an auction house. What if a portion of town was the "open market." Players could go here and examine rented stalls of players with NPC/Players selling their wares in on central space.

[Sam]

A robust economy will make any game better. You can look at games like PotBS, a miserable failure in most cases, but their economy was so engaging that it could suck you in. It also fuels PvP, since different factions/guilds/whatever would fight over certain areas that are rich in resources or whatnot. I'd really like to see a game that actually puts effort into the system instead of just throwing up a standard auction house like most of the new games tend to do lately.

[Lyllyth]

My view on this kind of falls in line with Player-built housing.

Player houses should come in various forms (relating to size/cost/etc), a couple of those options could allow for;
a) home-over-shop, where it'd be a 2-story building, the lower front would be a merchant area. The lower back would be a crafting area. The upper floor would be the Player's house. This would also be very expensive.
b) shop-before-home, where the shop/crafting areas are to the front of the building and the house is to the back. Though the "house" would be simply a room or two. This would be a cheaper option.
c) craft-shop, no house attached, the front is a merchant area, the back is a crafting area. Cheaper than option b.
d) just a shop, as that implies, this would just be a merchant shop with no crafting area inside. Even cheaper than option c.

Now, to be an active shop, someone/thing has to be present to sell the items, be it the Player or a hired NPC. Those who are profiting well, may chose to hire an NPC to stand there and take orders.

I envision it this way... You enter the shop, on the counter before you is a bell and a "list" (something that would look like an inventory list). If you click on the list, you get a list of the items for sale and their prices. If you click on the bell, it'll "ping" the owner, if he's online. This could be to negotiate a price or trade, or simply to make an order for something that's not on the list.

NPC Hireling:
NPC run shops are simple, behind the counter would stand an NPC that sells things just as any NPC vendor would, but he's limited to the items in the shop and will not buy anything from people. The owning Player is free to leave without closing shop. The NPC could be given instructions on various things. Perhaps a floor/ceiling % for negotiations. A "seeking" list of items the Player wants to purchase if they happen to come in the store and how much to pay for each, etc. Of course, the NPC would require pay.

Player Run:
To free up the Player, the "inventory list" would behave as the merchant in this case, but the owner has to be in the building for any transactions to be possible. Perhaps he's in the back, crafting more items. The drawback to running the shop yourself, is that the shop is closed the moment you leave.

A Touch of Realism:
No employee will work 24/7, so the owner will have to set the work schedule for the NPC. The default would be 0700-1700, 5 days a week. Assuming the player is not there (out adventuring or what have you), the NPC will keep the shop open during his working hours and close up shop during his time off. This would allow for more hirelings to be employed, if needed.

Offline:
... Now this part's just a thought. But let's say you were to log out in your shop. The server could place a look-a-like NPC behind the counter to handle the shop while you're offline. If you have NPC hirelings, this NPC would rotate hours with them, if you're self owned, you would set the working hours just as you would with an NPC hireling, or leave the default as is.

Non-Player Involved Shops:
At the start of a city, or even as the server opens, there will be no Player merchants, so there will need to be NPC merchants. I would suggest that the NPC merchants are handled in a similar way to the Player Merchant, with a limited inventory and limited resources.
This would open doors for "Tasks". A task being similar to what current MMOs call "Quests", "Collect item X for me." However, it would be more of a "Seeking" list, so it wouldn't be "collect 30 of X for me", but more of a "I'll pay you Y for every X you bring me." The NPC would require materials and could pay players for the materials brought to him, per item. This would allow a small income for beginning Players (no XP) and would further the in-game economy as the player has basically just become a hired worker.

[silenced]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

Non-Player Involved Shops:
At the start of a city, or even as the server opens, there will be no Player merchants, so there will need to be NPC merchants. I would suggest that the NPC merchants are handled in a similar way to the Player Merchant, with a limited inventory and limited resources.
This would open doors for "Tasks". A task being similar to what current MMOs call "Quests", "Collect item X for me." However, it would be more of a "Seeking" list, so it wouldn't be "collect 30 of X for me", but more of a "I'll pay you Y for every X you bring me." The NPC would require materials and could pay players for the materials brought to him, per item. This would allow a small income for beginning Players (no XP) and would further the in-game economy as the player has basically just become a hired worker.

what if you transfer something like that to the player aswell ?

so see it as "playergiven" quests to other players -> "i need 25 of this, but i'm too weak in skills to fight through those dangers, i will pay you xx amount for each one, who comes first wins !"

now those interested might move on and organize 25 or more of what the player wants, going to his house, putting the stuff on the desk and get payed by a predefined amount of money for that kind of item which was stored before in the housebank ...


hope you can follow me ôô

[Wonderboy2402]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

Now, to be an active shop, someone/thing has to be present to sell the items, be it the Player or a hired NPC. Those who are profiting well, may chose to hire an NPC to stand there and take orders.

I envision it this way... You enter the shop, on the counter before you is a bell and a "list" (something that would look like an inventory list). If you click on the list, you get a list of the items for sale and their prices. If you click on the bell, it'll "ping" the owner, if he's online. This could be to negotiate a price or trade, or simply to make an order for something that's not on the list.

NPC Hireling:
NPC run shops are simple, behind the counter would stand an NPC that sells things just as any NPC vendor would, but he's limited to the items in the shop and will not buy anything from people. The owning Player is free to leave without closing shop. The NPC could be given instructions on various things. Perhaps a floor/ceiling % for negotiations. A "seeking" list of items the Player wants to purchase if they happen to come in the store and how much to pay for each, etc. Of course, the NPC would require pay.


A Touch of Realism:
No employee will work 24/7, so the owner will have to set the work schedule for the NPC. The default would be 0700-1700, 5 days a week. Assuming the player is not there (out adventuring or what have you), the NPC will keep the shop open during his working hours and close up shop during his time off. This would allow for more hirelings to be employed, if needed.

Offline:
... Now this part's just a thought. But let's say you were to log out in your shop. The server could place a look-a-like NPC behind the counter to handle the shop while you're offline. If you have NPC hirelings, this NPC would rotate hours with them, if you're self owned, you would set the working hours just as you would with an NPC hireling, or leave the default as is.

Some interesting ideas there, work schedules for NPC shop keepers. Store not being open 24/7.

I also kind of like the idea that players can place orders to your NPC apprentice/salesman and you either fill them offline or return to review your orders and decide whether to accept/decline a commission on your work. I think there could be something there.

[Apollo]

I like the idea of npc merchants giving out lists of things they need instead of the basic quest system. Perhaps npc merchants could give out the same lists to every player who asks for it. The players who give the items to the npc first receive the highest amount of money for them. The more items a merchant has to sell, the lower the price he will pay for them. Basically, have all the players in the game run on the same npc merchant quests all at the same time. I hope you guys followed me on this.

[Faidor]

I like the idea, and your right, I have never known of a game (other then EVE) that really lets you play as a Merchant.
If your a good merchant,
-You will have hired guards/mercenaries. (to keep the rogues away)
-You won't brag about your 'hotspot' locations to other players (keep other merchants away)
-You don't kill. A dead man can't buy anything. (first commandment of Merchantism)
-Role play your part well (diplomacy to keep people coming back to buy your goods)

I know people who would play excellent merchants. And they would absolutely love it, because simply making money is more appealing to them than anything else.

[Lyllyth]

Just to clarify a bit on what I'd said, as I didn't go into detail on the Player driven Tasks. (I view "collection quests" as Tasks, not quests)

I mentioned in the "NPC Hireling" portion, that a "seeking" list could be set in place by the Player. This would, in essence, be a Task for other players to perform. So, let's say the Player needs 100 Iron bars and 50 Leather Strips, the Player would then place them on the Seeking list along with an amount he's willing to pay for each. Let's say the Player is willing to pay 5s per Leather Strip and 1g per Iron Bar. Other Players could view the Seeking list and see that the merchant needs these items. This would not be a "Quest" in their log, but something they are aware of.
As the items come in, assuming they don't all come in at once, the Seeking list would reflect the lesser number of needed items. At any time, the number of items on the list could be increased or decreased, depending on the Merchant Player's needs. There may even be an open-ended setting if the Merchant player decides that he'll need a nearly endless supply of these items. (Though, I'd be cautious with that setting)

Items in a shop, both complete and in material form, would be kept in a Vault of sorts. For interface purposes, it could be a Hatch in the wall that the Merchant would click to interface, something akin to a Bank. From here, the Merchant Player can lay out what's for sale at what price, those items (the ones with a price) will show when other Players interact with the Shop.

For the Seeking list, it could simply be displayed as a "Wanted" poster on the wall of the shop. Players would interact with the poster.

[Apollo]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

Just to clarify a bit on what I'd said, as I didn't go into detail on the Player driven Tasks. (I view "collection quests" as Tasks, not quests)

I mentioned in the "NPC Hireling" portion, that a "seeking" list could be set in place by the Player. This would, in essence, be a Task for other players to perform. So, let's say the Player needs 100 Iron bars and 50 Leather Strips, the Player would then place them on the Seeking list along with an amount he's willing to pay for each. Let's say the Player is willing to pay 5s per Leather Strip and 1g per Iron Bar. Other Players could view the Seeking list and see that the merchant needs these items. This would not be a "Quest" in their log, but something they are aware of.
As the items come in, assuming they don't all come in at once, the Seeking list would reflect the lesser number of needed items. At any time, the number of items on the list could be increased or decreased, depending on the Merchant Player's needs. There may even be an open-ended setting if the Merchant player decides that he'll need a nearly endless supply of these items. (Though, I'd be cautious with that setting)

Items in a shop, both complete and in material form, would be kept in a Vault of sorts. For interface purposes, it could be a Hatch in the wall that the Merchant would click to interface, something akin to a Bank. From here, the Merchant Player can lay out what's for sale at what price, those items (the ones with a price) will show when other Players interact with the Shop.

For the Seeking list, it could simply be displayed as a "Wanted" poster on the wall of the shop. Players would interact with the poster.

I followed you from the first post, don't worry. Basically, i like your idea for player to player interaction. My above post was just intended for NPC merchants. I really like the idea of a "wanted poster" for needed items. It would be very nice to find your storage filled with the goods you needed simply by placing a sign up in your shop. I love the possibilities of it.

[Torgrim]

The point of my thread was a economic trading system with Villages/NPCs ect much like IRL todays world market.

Buy commodity like cloth at low price in the city of Amerath and sell it for a profit at the southern city of Alnaratha.

See what kind of different wares is produced at different cities and villages and learn the market.

These items are only needed for NPC intereaction players dont have any use of it.

What players buy is crafted items that other players make like weapons,armor,food ect but that belongs to another thread.

[Cardinal Harvest]

I've never seen good economy solution in any of present sword & sorcery (or fantasy if u prefer) mmo game.
Only game where i can say that economy/trading is done great is EVE.

And i am not bringing this as "EVE fanboi", i am just being real after giving enough time playing mmo games.

Escorting traders/merchants on their trade routes, different markets per regions, selling different religion/culture items over places where they are hard/impossible to get, hiring people to secure different sections of roads to prevent ambushing/robbing goods... list goes on and they are all thrilling foundations on what MO could be based on.

[Praxeas]

As long as the risk, invested time and profit are balanced, so it's not a "get rich in a hurry without effort" kind of thing, you have my vote. The buy order price on the NPCs need to dynamic and responsive as well.

I was a hobby merchant in EvE for many years and that system had it's flaws, since all NPC traders reset their prices during the daily downtime (at least in the beginning, they have tweaked this a bit now). So it was really just a scramble to log on as soon as possible after the servers were up to get the best profit.

If such a system becomes too profitable and risk free, it will cause inflation, since it generates currency out of thin air. I would like to see this in-game, but not without some serious thought put into it.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As long as the risk, invested time and profit are balanced, so it's not a "get rich in a hurry without effort" kind of thing, you have my vote. The buy order price on the NPCs need to dynamic and responsive as well.

I was a hobby merchant in EvE for many years and that system had it's flaws, since all NPC traders reset their prices during the daily downtime (at least in the beginning, they have tweaked this a bit now). So it was really just a scramble to log on as soon as possible after the servers were up to get the best profit.

If such a system becomes too profitable and risk free, it will cause inflation, since it generates currency out of thin air. I would like to see this in-game, but not without some serious thought put into it.

In a system you're describing, the merchants are creating items out of thin air, as they do in almost every MMORPG. In the system I described, the merchants are just as reliant on resources as the players.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

In a system you're describing, the merchants are creating items out of thin air, as they do in almost every MMORPG. In the system I described, the merchants are just as reliant on resources as the players.

Although I very much agree with a lot of what you are proposing, I fail to see much relevance to the OP. If I haven't misunderstood completely, he is talking about an NPC commodities market like that in Elite, Frontier, EvE online, to name a few. And yes; NPC merchants in such a market would "create items out of thin air" in a way. Say that in NPC Village A, lying on fertile grasslands with acers of wheatfields, a player merchant could purchase Wheat to transport to village B, a destitute desert village, and make a profit selling the Wheat there.

I believe this is what the OP was posting about, and the reservations and points I had was against such a system becoming a cash machine. As far as I can see your post was mostly about player markets with NPCs to help with interactions between players. A fine idea, but my post was not directed at this.

[Torgrim]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Although I very much agree with a lot of what you are proposing, I fail to see much relevance to the OP. If I haven't misunderstood completely, he is talking about an NPC commodities market like that in Elite, Frontier, EvE online, to name a few. And yes; NPC merchants in such a market would "create items out of thin air" in a way. Say that in NPC Village A, lying on fertile grasslands with acers of wheatfields, a player merchant could purchase Wheat to transport to village B, a destitute desert village, and make a profit selling the Wheat there.

Yep this is what i meant, thanks for clearing that up

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Although I very much agree with a lot of what you are proposing, I fail to see much relevance to the OP. If I haven't misunderstood completely, he is talking about an NPC commodities market like that in Elite, Frontier, EvE online, to name a few. And yes; NPC merchants in such a market would "create items out of thin air" in a way. Say that in NPC Village A, lying on fertile grasslands with acers of wheatfields, a player merchant could purchase Wheat to transport to village B, a destitute desert village, and make a profit selling the Wheat there.

I believe this is what the OP was posting about, and the reservations and points I had was against such a system becoming a cash machine. As far as I can see your post was mostly about player markets with NPCs to help with interactions between players. A fine idea, but my post was not directed at this.

What I described was a single-town setting. Available resources will naturally dictate price, without making items out of thin air. Be it that the NPC vendor buys goods from Players or other NPCs.

So, I guess where you are talking about the general idea of the thing, I'm discussing the details.

Say we have the fertile land and with it an abundance of NPC farmers. These farmers sell their goods to certain NPC merchants after each harvest. The NPC merchant could then sell those goods, at profit, to either other NPCs or Players for crafting, shipping, etc.

The Desert town, having no farm source, is reliant on those goods at whatever price.

But then, zeroing in on the Desert town, there would have to be some kind of income. Be it hunting certain desert life, mining a local source of ores, etc.

So, where the first town is profiting mainly through it's farming, the second town is profiting primarily through it's mining.

Now, in a way, most Players are like tourists in these towns, as they have an outside income and are likely spending these outside incomes in the towns. Although, there will be some players that play more of a Local role, in that they have their income based on that town.

If there is a detailed Start to Finish crafting and supply system in the game, the economics of the individual towns will create themselves, without further coding. Then, if you so chose, you could become a Trader and make profit from the towns. =)

[DreamSpawn]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

If there is a detailed Start to Finish crafting and supply system in the game, the economics of the individual towns will create themselves, without further coding. Then, if you so chose, you could become a Trader and make profit from the towns. =)

I couldn't agree more - if the crafting and economy system is complete enough, there is no need for an 'artificial' NPC economy.

If resources are of abundance in one area they will be cheap and if they are scarce they will be expensive - then it will be up to the want-to-be merchant to figure out where is which. It's all basic supply and demand.