Nuker Poll

[lokius]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

[...] when a mage(or a group of mages) launches a meteor from the sky to devastate a battlefield (<- A nuke), I think we have a winner

As to the non-combat spells, I'd really like to see more utility magic, because most mmorpgs just dis that part and concentrate only on combat magic, which is a shame :/ In fact, with more utility magic, you wouldn't have to worry making magic matching to melee. In fact, basic combat magic could be made somewhat weaker to melee in comparison, unless you concentrated 100% on it, but spreading your expertise in magic in a more even manner, would allow you to do things the melee character can only dream of. For example, levitation, teleportation, telekinesis, invisibility, enhanced senses/physical feats, physical transmutation, matter transmutation... you name it!

Im quoting a large part of the post cuz it makes a lot of sense to me. Lets go on the topic first. Ok so in most MMO a nuke is considered as something near to "I win" button most usualy a spell or ability that does tons of dmg to a single target, while nukes as we have them IRL are quite demolishing weapons of mass destruction though using them has some freaking serius side effects, else we would have nukes flying here and there whole the time.

Similar nukes in MO could be more harmful but also bear some serious conseqences. At this point I agree if someone is possible to do such mass damge in a fantasy world it would probably be casters or siege weapons operators. Also shooting a "nuke" to get rid of someone standing next to you would probably impossible or would as well take you down with you enemy. As for a mage or a group of mages casting such spells it could seriusly exhaust them or even cripple for some time.

If there are nukes they should be usefull as a strategical weapon :P in sieges other kinds of mass pvp or large pve encounters.

About utilty spells its kinda off topic here but, hell yes! Thats why I love playing as a mage in PnP role plays where the most limiting factor of how you use a spell is your imagination. Who doesnt like when a little utilty spell used in a proper way can be much more effective than a badass spell with tons of damage. Of course MO will be a cRPG and it must be limited not ony by imagination, but I just hope devs will show utility magic some love.

[patamon]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

@Vanndal, the way I see magical attacks more powerful than physical attacks is the fact that with magic you can cause damage and destruction on a large scale. I very much agree that to a human a two-hander to the skull is about as lethal as a fireball to the arse, but when a mage(or a group of mages) launches a meteor from the sky to devastate a battlefield (<- A nuke), I think we have a winner

and if a hand full engeniers fire a hand full of catapults and balistas they have yust created no one will be standing after that
and if s few riders will crush your line....
and if a cople of crossbowmans fire a big salwe of arows upon you...

i do not thing that hages shoud be the nuker just because they have powerfull magic...if a ranger or assasin is quicker he will kill you because in MO you will have a first person look in combat and you can not see to behind.....

i thik the only thing why we think that archers shoud be the nukers is because in the MMORPGs nowdays are mages the nukers....and why we have to make it same...

[kurrency420]

i admit i didn't read this full article and i apoligize if i repeat anyone else.

I voted for a mage because by all means his spells will cause more damage than anything. But in the history of spell caster's, they don't really cast attack spells back to back to back, they do a bit of melee combat with their staff also. I suggest the mage but i believe he should be forced somewhat into also dealing melee damage with great attack buffs or something.
I just don't want to see a mage sitting behind everyone nuking them, he should be a medium range, one that has to go in and out of melee range.

Thanks

[Vanndal]

@catmorbid
Indeed... Magic can cause a totality of damage over a large area. However Through Physical Means, Siege Weaponry can also do massive damage over a large area.

@kurrency
Well... you can go melee with your caster if you want, but as far as I see it, a lot of pro-mage players on this forum wants to wield huge magical power. If you grant them the ability to fight in close quarter combat as effective as any melee combatant, then wouldn't that just mean that they are effectively equal to a "Melee Combatant/Range Combatant/Spell Caster" combo?

In that case, then shouldn't everyone in the world just play a spell caster since they can nuke from afar, buff themselves to fight equally with a melee combatant?

[lokius]

As far as I understand the skill system it will be possible to have a mage and warrior hybrid but you probably won't be as strong as a typical warrior or a pure mage. Maybe even it will be possible to specialize in some kind of buffing spells. Though I guess such mages shoudn't be able to do those biggest aoe nukes.

[Jutsin]

Originally Posted by lokius

As far as I understand the skill system it will be possible to have a mage and warrior hybrid but you probably won't be as strong as a typical warrior or a pure mage. Maybe even it will be possible to specialize in some kind of buffing spells. Though I guess such mages shoudn't be able to do those biggest aoe nukes.

It'll definitely be possible to have the caster/warrior hybrid using the skill system, and you're right, versatility will come with it's downsides.

Just some examples that spring to mind from previous games (not saying this will be the case in MO, but I'm sure equivalent safeguards will be put in place): heavy armor stops/reduces mana regeneration, mana is dependant on intelligence stats while damage or swing speed is dependant on strength or dexterity, you need to disarm what you're holding (except spellbook) to cast spells, etc.

So, you may have a caster who can wield a weapon well - but you probably won't swing faster than a true melee purist, or maybe you won't be able to wear as much armor as them, or maybe having higher physical attributes to keep up with your weapon use will mean that you have less capacity to be the caster (reduced damage of spells, reduced mana pool to cast spells, etc).

These are all just examples - but I'm near to certain that you won't have any warrior mages running around with equal efficiency to both mages and warriors combined. Having a generalist character means you'll have versatility, it doesn't make you a god, luckily

[catmorbid]

Ok, I agree that siege weapons can be comparable to powerful magic. However, I would disagree if anyone would say that siege weapons could be usable against individuals the same way magic would be. They're generally rather inaccurate and not meant for destroying people. Non-explosive siege weapons would be primarily used for demolishing walls and buildings, not people, whereas a powerful spell could be intended for disintegrating anything in its way. Explosive siege weapons on the other hand are quite advanced for your average medival era fantasy...

Of course, it's a matter of lore, if such powerful magic is available, and if it is, at what extent and what would be the cost for such. But still, I would say that magic would have more potential than any common means, to deal the most destruction.

I feel somewhat silly discussing this, dunno why

[patamon]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

Ok, I agree that siege weapons can be comparable to powerful magic. However, I would disagree if anyone would say that siege weapons could be usable against individuals the same way magic would be. They're generally rather inaccurate and not meant for destroying people. Non-explosive siege weapons would be primarily used for demolishing walls and buildings, not people,

I feel somewhat silly discussing this, dunno why

yes therefor are they caled siedge wapons...bud you have maybe never faced a roman scorpion becouse a arow from that one is more powerfull as any firebol you can ever cast...

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by patamon

yes therefor are they caled siedge wapons...bud you have maybe never faced a roman scorpion becouse a arow from that one is more powerfull as any firebol you can ever cast...

Honestly speaking, how would you know that? Have you been hit by both?
Just how powerful is a Fireball? There are several factors to consider...
1) How hot is the fire from the Fireball (it's magic so it could be much hotter than normal)?
2) Is the Fireball the explosive style?
3) Is the Fireball more of a bolt of flame?
4) With the explosion version, does it actually explode, or does it just envelop the area?
5) If it's a bolt, is it condensed, or just a ball of fire?

So, even if the fireball isn't explosive, like a grenade, it may burn at 10,000°K. There is a difference between a hole in your body to just being turned to ash.

[Mendoras]

I want devastating magical attacks.

I hope we'll see great and beautiful spell effects :P - And I hope that there are a lot of different magic schools we can learn, so we can freeze, burn, splatter, spike, cut, poison, drain --- urgl... KILL everything

[Vanndal]

Oh man... @catmorbid, You just gave me a great idea that I wish I had thought of earlier .

ALCHEMY! What better way then technology versus magic .

Need a flaming sword as a temporary buff, but don't have a spell caster handy?

Why not coat your sword with greek fire?

Need a arrow that hurts your target and deal a damage over time debuff?

Why not coat your arrows with poison?

It adds a whole new level of abilities to the game, and that players don't need to learn spell casting to gain different scientific bonuses to their weapons of choice that normally do not produce such effects.

Alchemy in more modern terms, simple is Chemistry.

I'll admit this post is off topic and could start up a whole new thread and discussion, but for now lets see what people think . It could make it so that both physical and meta-physical attack are on par and allow all classes to gain things that are considered magic for it's time.

Though it doesn't really solve the problem of whether or not to allow nukes at all.

A meteor spell itself is by far too catastrophic to cast without some form of restriction.

If a meteor spell is allowed, I'd like to petition a Magic Circle rule, where in order to cast certain catastrophic spells, you'll need somewhere around 10+ casters standing on the Magic Circle, channeling the spell until it is complete. However it can not be completed otherwise with less then 10 caster. That way we won't have a lone mage cast meteor on a town and killing countless players and npc alike without some form of trace.

Any less amount of casters forced onto the magic circle is asking for a small crew of friends (say 3) to cast it for fun. While 10+ would mean that people would literally have to gather the players they can trust, which would most often be from their guild.

While minor heavy devastation spells would be somewhere around 3-5 casters, using the magic circle idea, to prevent abuse as well.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

Oh man... @catmorbid, You just gave me a great idea that I wish I had thought of earlier .

ALCHEMY! What better way then technology versus magic .

Need a flaming sword as a temporary buff, but don't have a spell caster handy?

Why not coat your sword with greek fire?

Need a arrow that hurts your target and deal a damage over time debuff?

Why not coat your arrows with poison?

Honestly, I figured that as a given. =)

[OMGPIE]

Originally Posted by Traceur

other: siege weapon handlers.

Agreed.

[Kaoy]

I'm not quite sure why siege weapons are being seen as an option here. Is it because of Sho Online? I think you have the wrong idea of how sieges are meant to be carried out if that is where you are getting the idea.

And sorry to go back a couple weeks to my last post in this thread, but I was out of town and had computer trouble, but I think it needs to be said: When talking 2-5 hit kills with spells, I am thinking 5 second cast times from medium range. Also, keep in mind, givin that this game is to require the player to actually aim, it will be possible to miss with magic or have the other player get out of the way. If thats how it goes down, certain skill that allow the mage to ice down an opopnent to slow them would be nessacary.

Anyway, a nuker is in regards to single hit damage. An Assasin is many hits quickly. That's DPS. A Warrior is fewer hits that do more damage per hit. That's still DPS, just in larger chunks. A Mage is lengthy casts that can hit from afar to do large amounts of damage all at once. That's Nuke. A Seige Weapon is very unlikely to be a profession, but rather a tool to be used in siege in PvP. That's irrelevant.

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Kaoy

Anyway, a nuker is in regards to single hit damage. An Assasin is many hits quickly. That's DPS. A Warrior is fewer hits that do more damage per hit. That's still DPS, just in larger chunks. A Mage is lengthy casts that can hit from afar to do large amounts of damage all at once. That's Nuke. A Seige Weapon is very unlikely to be a profession, but rather a tool to be used in siege in PvP. That's irrelevant.

Would a siege engineer/siege engine operator be profession enough for you?

[Kaoy]

Yes, but I highly doubt you will be rolling into a cave in your ballista. If there is a profession to control siege weapons, it will be like a blacksmith: Great at what they do, but not so great at combat.

[Vanndal]

All depends on what kind of Ballista you are talking about . The old Greek Ballistas were enormous and were about the size of a small catapult. However the Romans revamped the technology and changed it into about 5 feet in length and about 2.5 feet in height. That was quite portable, but with less of a siege weaponry effect. However it did not stop a ballista from firing a bolt through solid rock walls.

And then there are Arbalests, not exactly siege weapon, but it packs a punch if you played with one in a fair before :P.

[Thorgiras]

I think this discussion is already leading in a wrong direction. Again and again, we ar discussing about classes and which one will be the nuker etc.... isn't that exactly what we don't want the game to be like?

In my opinion, anyone should be able to dig deep into magic or focus on one's weapon skills to become a "nuker".
... If you want your character to be like that, that is.

A discussion about classes implies that the player is already restricted in the way he wants to play his character.

Don't get me wrong. This doesn't mean any player should be able to do everything at the same time.
Oh well, you can ... but certainly without success