EVE-Online!

[Arxon Havenloft]

I just have trouble having fun in a game where others are further along than I am because they have no lives (or have been playing for so much longer in Eve's case).

I would almost be for the idea of a casual gaming server. Where your account would be logged off of the server after 3-4 hours of gameplay on that server each day. 3-4 hours is a long time, especially for a casual gamer. If it happens to be a day off and raining outside you could simply play your 3-4 hours and get on a different non casual server afterward.

[Daniel Adler]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

I just have trouble having fun in a game where others are further along than I am because they have no lives (or have been playing for so much longer in Eve's case).

I would almost be for the idea of a casual gaming server. Where your account would be logged off of the server after 3-4 hours of gameplay on that server each day. 3-4 hours is a long time, especially for a casual gamer. If it happens to be a day off and raining outside you could simply play your 3-4 hours and get on a different non casual server afterward.

this is a very interesting topic actually. How do you reward the long time players while accepting new players in a good way? And if you don't get any benefits from your time played why even stay?

Take most non competitive FPS games. Unless they have major supports from tournaments and such none would keep playing them. Because you are not rewarded for playing non stop. While if they are involved in tournaments and being popular game they keep living because the reward is status in the community. Same goes for mmo. To keep players interested even if they ain't into full-time pvp you got to keep rewarding them. And if your "rewards" become meaningless ( due to facts like "well-fare epics", or very easy to get boosts ) You become frustrated because you don't feel that your time played is being rewarded. And that people that haven't played as much get just the same stuff. And you are very likely to quit. ( one of the points for me quitting wow ).

There are 2 games that I can think of that avoid problems like this. Those are Eve Online and Asherons Call. Both games depend on player interaction for helping newer players out. And in Asherons call as a patron you even get Xp from your vassals xp'ing. So the more you help him the more xp you get. In EVE sure you cant start driving around in the biggest ships. But with only a few days training you can drive stuff you normally wouldn't if you needed to buy everything your self. Like big haulers or such.

Some personal opinions about mmorpg design =)

[Arxon Havenloft]

I think UO did a wonderful job with rewarding veteran players with such things as Vet Rewards. If only they would have been able to keep up with them and not always be months behind on the "new options".

This way all players are rewarded for their time subscribed. That is where they had got it right. It shouldn't be based on how many hours that you've played, hell you have fun the way you want to have fun you cannot expect to be rewarded for having more fun than others. It should be based on how long you've lived in the game world. Account length is a great measure for a reward system.

However, players that just recently join a game such as UO would obviously feel a little behind. They cannot even use such things as the Black Dye Tub until their account is at least a year old. That isn't right! I can understand why they should not be able to own a Black Dye Tub but there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to use one if they see it. Also such things as Ethereal Mounts just ruin game mechanics alltogether that should be in place. When you die, your mount should be up for grabs. Whether they kill it, steal it, or leave it the option should be there. And if you lose your mount you should have to go through the steps of getting a new one.

The trick is to make any such reward not game breaking. Aesthetcally pleasing items work because they don't overpower or unbalance anything. Also implementing such things as Zones or Dungeons that cannot be entered until you've reached a specific account length could work. While you feel as you cannot do everything in the game, you still feel balanced at least with those that can.

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Arxon Havenloft

The trick is to make any such reward not game breaking. Aesthetcally pleasing items work because they don't overpower or unbalance anything. Also implementing such things as Zones or Dungeons that cannot be entered until you've reached a specific account length could work. While you feel as you cannot do everything in the game, you still feel balanced at least with those that can.

I think you're contradicting yourself here.
Inaccessible zones and dungeons would be a HUGE letdown for new players.

I agree that more cosmetic choices could be a way to reward older players.

But actually, I don't understand why you think someone should get rewarded for having an old account at all.

I mean, of course, it's cool for the game company that you stayed for that long.

But, a new player can get an unpleasant feeling when he creates an account when he realizes even the slightest thing is unaccessible as of yet.

I had this feeling in Eve, and many MANY other did. Even if the veteran players consider the feeling futile or even stupid (even the new player can find it stupid), it is still there and it's something that may refrain the new players from enjoying the game 100%.
It's a bad thing, new players are extremely important for the health of the game and the community, they should not get frustrated for being new, it's just not right.

[Reclusiarch]

I am pondering starting EVE-online. I heard you can be a freighter captain. I'm interesting in trading, you know.. going from one space station/planet to the next selling and buying, then get me a bigger ship with a bigger cargo hold and get lots of money. Is that possible?

[Daniel Adler]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

I agree that more cosmetic choices could be a way to reward older players.

But actually, I don't understand why you think someone should get rewarded for having an old account at all.

I mean, of course, it's cool for the game company that you stayed for that long.

Why reward? Because rewards is why we play game. Though rewards comes in many shapes. Some enjoy just becoming well-known other enjoy being the richest man others want power of influence. Or some just want to brag with that baddass sword.

And somehow in any fantasy story with a hero or heroine the hero who has archived loads of power is an important part of it. Take gandalf in lotro for example. Who wouldn't want to play an character like him. But a character of his proportion would and should take time to achieve( i don't think gandalf just rolled lucky on his char creation dice ).

What i am trying to say is that there are many forms of rewards and actually me personally i am for an unbalanced world. I think the players who want and can should be rewarded while others just remain status quo with the world. If you cant achieve arch mage then why cant you just enjoy the rest of the game or gather your buddy's and take care fo the arch mage your self if you are that yellows of him. Basically unbalanced world contributes with more dynamic content overall. =)


And exactly how stuff works in mortal online you will see due time. this is my opinions and i am still not one i charge of decision making. Just a burning intrest for rpg game mechanics/logic and rules.

ehum why is the developers so good at derailing topics ? hehe sorry for this
back to eve!!!

I want one of those big bad ass super titans one day =)

[admiralnlson]

Originally Posted by Daniel Adler

Take gandalf in lotro for example. Who wouldn't want to play an character like him. But a character of his proportion would and should take time to achieve( i don't think gandalf just rolled lucky on his char creation dice ).

I wouldn't like to play Gandalf. And he did get lucky, since he is a half-god (or a god I don't remember the details).

[Arxon Havenloft]

Originally Posted by Daniel Adler

What i am trying to say is that there are many forms of rewards and actually me personally i am for an unbalanced world. I think the players who want and can should be rewarded while others just remain status quo with the world.

The problem with unbalancing rewards is that players begin to not play the game in order to have fun but instead play the game in order to get whatever overpowered reward.

Using WoW as an example, players do not run 40-man raids 1-2 days a week for hours on in week after week after week for fun.. They do it for the chance that they may get something out of it. And they eventually do. And in a game like WoW, if you are too far behind in the grind for gear then you just cannot compete with others that are on the top.

I am very much for a balanced and fair world. Therefore when I win, nobody can protest that I had any kind of advantage.

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

I think you're contradicting yourself here.
Inaccessible zones and dungeons would be a HUGE letdown for new players.

I don't know about that. I've played in games that required specific levels to enter certain dungeons (MU online for example) and that never once bothered me. I was however happy when I became high enough level to explore them.

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

But actually, I don't understand why you think someone should get rewarded for having an old account at all.

It just keeps you interested in the game. Gives you something else to enjoy. You could imagine that any game after a while will begin to get boring. These rewards just keep you in the mood to play. Plus it's just cool of any company to do such a thing for it's subscribers. It makes every player feel welcome (not just the powergamers) and just brings a good morale to the game.

[Reclusiarch]

I'll just head over to an EVE forum to get my questions answered.

[Daniel Adler]

Arxon Havenloft: Using wow as an example is not an good idea since its a very item centric game. And only focus on "end game" I like games were the journey is of more matter then the "end" Both AC and Eve is such games with no real end no real cap ( in both cases there are caps though its not likely you will ever reach em. Even with passive training skills in eve )

Even in wow a bad player in good gear will most likely not win against a good player in mediocre gear ever. ( And no a good player will never have bad gear since they will know what their characters need and aim for items that support their play style. )

A third thing about wow is that nothing is really hard in wow except making 25 people cooperate. Its one purly grindbased game with no real rewards.

And i am derailing again =(
bad bad developer.

[Oda]

A free and open world means it will be unbalanced by default. There's always those who manage to find a way to have an advantage over others (legit of course), because the rules in sandbox games are reduced to a minimum. That's the whole idea of it, letting your players outwit each other in a contest that actually mathers (unlike WoW's PVE world firsts), winning riches and fame. There's nothing remotely close to player confrontations as being fun and thrilling.

And if you like balanced worlds and rulesets (for example like WoW), get ready for something you will LOVE ... if you learn how to survive in it.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Daniel Adler & Oda I have replied to both of you in this new thread Here!

I didn't want to further hijack this thread.

[Cardinal Harvest]

Originally Posted by Oda

And if you like balanced worlds and rulesets (for example like WoW), get ready for something you will LOVE ... if you learn how to survive in it.

I am sure everyone here loves Blizzard reseting your characters upon every expansion thus making u grind again in a game that has no rewards at all. This is not WoW thread, but since u bring it in, WoW sucked BIG time after TBC was out.
Not to mention that maybe 5% of people who "defend" WoW played it since its release. That speaks for itself.

Ontopic:
EVE is by far the best mmo game there is atm. While i am playing it for about 5-6 months, i wish that i found it earlier.

[Death Saved]

Hm Caladari i got a merlin LOL!!!

[sonnyred]

I think the skill system in EVE is very good and it rewards casual gamers as well as hardcore. The argument against it is that players who invest huge amounts of game time can end up with the same skill points as someone who can log on, select a new skill to train and then log off again. But the point is the hardcore player who invests a lot of time in the game will be learning its intricacies and strategies.
How many times in EVE did a player ask how to fire a missile, and he's flying a battlecruiser The character was obviously bought from Ebay and the guy could, skillwise, fly a powerful ship. But using that ship to its potential only comes from playing the game and thats where the rewards for the hardcore come into it. But the casual gamer like me, who can only play a few hours per week, can still train skills and plot out a strategy (in my case miner/trader/industrialist) and not have to sit at my computer for 40 hours per week to do it. Granted, a hardcore gamer will usually have the edge in PvP but in EVE you don't have to go down the PvP route, it's completey free to play the game how you want and I get just as much enjoyment playing the game for 5 hours per week than someone who plays for 40, and thats because of the skill system and the sandbox gameplay that compliment each other.

[The Last Spartan]

Rewards should be for doing something epic, not for age of account imo.^^

[holo4ever]

I have a question 'bout eve..

Had a trial account but I couldn't see myself continuing it, because, although I did the tutorial, there were sooo many things that weren't explained in it and I got bored of the go kill X number of ships and come back missions I did not mind the skill system, but rather enjoyed it... but now... all this talk about eve is making me want to play again ^_^

So here's my question, I want to pvp, I love to pvp - so what race should I choose ? Last time I was minmatar and managed to fly... something a little bigger than a rifter I guess.

If I were to begin from scratch, would anyone be so kind enough to give me hints from time to time, help me get the basics of the game ) ?

[Torgrim]

Im back again in the universe of EVE and im loving it

[ccoa]

I think I might get started, life as a black market trader seems interesting.

[holo4ever]

guess no-one ... sad

[Nagoth]

Originally Posted by holo4ever

I have a question 'bout eve..

Had a trial account but I couldn't see myself continuing it, because, although I did the tutorial, there were sooo many things that weren't explained in it and I got bored of the go kill X number of ships and come back missions I did not mind the skill system, but rather enjoyed it... but now... all this talk about eve is making me want to play again ^_^

So here's my question, I want to pvp, I love to pvp - so what race should I choose ? Last time I was minmatar and managed to fly... something a little bigger than a rifter I guess.

If I were to begin from scratch, would anyone be so kind enough to give me hints from time to time, help me get the basics of the game ) ?

Personally, I perfer Galente, because I can use my ship power for repairs and a few weapon systems, while my drones do massive damage, simply ripping the opposition apart.

However, I've also got the skills to fly an interceptor, maxed out on the ship and manuverability etc. and enjoying that alot. Even taken down a few BS rats with it, due to the great damage you do while up close, and them fumbling with targeting systems that wants you at 150 times the size and a range of 90km.

As for the skill system, for all those who say its unfair that old players have alot more skill points, it would be the same if it was XP based and no level cap. You would NEVER catch up with those that have played for 5+ years, no matter if you played 16 hours each day. Its simply not doable.
So, while waiting for your skills to train, kill rats, do missions, and get Implants to reduce your training times.
I find EVE very rewarding, I've engaged a bit in PvP, but not all that much. I'd like to try out pirating next, though not sure if I should use my Domi or one of my Interceptors for it.

Doing missions does get boring after a while, but you could simply go ratting for a while, or try your hand at mining. Rent yourself out to do reco or escort. The fun of the game is, there's no end to the possibilities.

[holo4ever]

Thanks... I already started with minmatar again I love the rifter... it's the most awesome looking ship there is !

I totally agree about the part with the skills. It's much more rewarding than other ways such as granting items/achievements to veteran players. Imagine that a person that's been playing for 5 years, idd has a lot more skills than you, but you have to remember that:
1. you won't face him directly anytime soon.
2. if by chance you do, you'll have a whole alliance with you that will help you.
3. in a 1v1 situation I don't think it will matter that much either... because the skills have a lvl 5 cap. And that you can achieve too for your ship in ~a year.

He most certainly would have trained some other stuff like industry/mining/trading/etc too, thus you won't have so many problems...

[Lemons]

i think what eve did well is made so many options for development so that if you planned right, it's easy to specialize in something to the point of being effective. for example, specializing in running missions efficiently: it may take a month to get to level 4 missions, but along the way you're fighting lots of cool battles in smaller missions, which gradually increase in difficulty and reward. and the lure of getting just a few more skills to fly that shiny new ship is just too much sometimes!