Stuns, Roots, Snares, Oh MY!

[1reaver1]

i think ou are going to have some ype of root or stun type spells. While i don't really have a problem with othe classes having it, You'll have to realize it will probably mean increases for the mage class just to balance things out. While an interesting perk for some classes, you are really talking bread and butter abilities for a mage. Typically the squishy factor HAS to be off-set so they don't become automatic PVP points for any tank or rouge class. Without a little help here, a mage turns into a butterball for any melee class with a blade.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by 1reaver1

i think ou are going to have some ype of root or stun type spells. While i don't really have a problem with othe classes having it, You'll have to realize it will probably mean increases for the mage class just to balance things out. While an interesting perk for some classes, you are really talking bread and butter abilities for a mage. Typically the squishy factor HAS to be off-set so they don't become automatic PVP points for any tank or rouge class. Without a little help here, a mage turns into a butterball for any melee class with a blade.

Like I said. Instead of using CC to survive, a mage should rely on utility, like teleportation, 5 second buffs, stuff that makes the mage harder to kill, rather than the target easier to kill.

[Phi]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

Like I said. Instead of using CC to survive, a mage should rely on utility, like teleportation, 5 second buffs, stuff that makes the mage harder to kill, rather than the target easier to kill.

I like that too, good idea.

[osteo]

Im sorry guys but i have to agree with neek here on this one. You all brought up how cc sucked in wow/aoc. CC's had to be there in wow cuz the healing was so op. The devs new the only way to stop a healer was a cc to interrupt a spell or render them useless for a small period of time. We all know this is true anyone who disagrees with this statement doesn't know what they are talking about. Stop using wow/aoc as a basis for arguements it wont work. Wow was not made for pvp it was made for pve and this is where wow pvp is broken from the beginning.

What neek is trying to talk about is on the basis of cc's is innovation. How to improve it. One way, the easiest way is letting everyone have this through a item. He is also saying that cc's should not be a paralyze where you cant do anything unless it is a hold person spell. So for all you peeps out there that dont like cc you should be applauding him. I hate to say it though some sort of cc will be there why not make it more irl to where you can retaliate in some way.

*sorry about the wow rant some people dont understand*

[osteo]

oh i forgot to say neek very nice ideas. I loved the thought of getting stunned but still being able to get lucky and swing a hit to someone, Or getting a lucky shot off of a bow.

[twistedurges]

I think we're all forgetting that if snares/stuns are included, the game is still dynamic and real time. If you don't let yourself get hit by the spell/ability, you'd have nothing to worry about. The most we can do at this point in development is speculate and hope. We have basically no information to go on, so it's just a waiting game.

[woodoo]

hope for no cc, no buffs nad no bunny hopping jump . Kinda lame

[Odin]

I wantto see stuns, snares, roots and fears. They're part of mmorpgs don't want to see them removed. Also look at Wowhammer they game has no CC and people are complaining. Without cc you can't beat skillfree-zergs, but with cc you can do so and thats why they have to be there.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Odin

I wantto see stuns, snares, roots and fears. They're part of mmorpgs don't want to see them removed. Also look at Wowhammer they game has no CC and people are complaining. Without cc you can't beat skillfree-zergs, but with cc you can do so and thats why they have to be there.

But there's not many utility skills in WAR either. Classes are so very bland in WAR, most skills are just there to do damage, or buff yourself so you do more damage.

[osteo]

lol sounds pretty horrible. Peeps were hyping that game up too what a waste at least from what i hear.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

But there's not many utility skills in WAR either. Classes are so very bland in WAR, most skills are just there to do damage, or buff yourself so you do more damage.

lol sounds pretty well...stupid? If thats mythic's defination of "a great rvr game" the only thing i can say is self owned.

Personally I think CC is a good way to control bigger but unorganized masses of enemies, so have you chance to kill them with enough skill.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Odin

lol sounds pretty well...stupid? If thats mythic's defination of "a great rvr game" the only thing i can say is self owned.

If Mythic hadn't been bought out by EA, WAR would be fathoms better than it is now.

[Phratello]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

If Mythic hadn't been bought out by EA, WAR would be fathoms better than it is now.

Thus is the harzard of becoming a public institution.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

If Mythic hadn't been bought out by EA, WAR would be fathoms better than it is now.

Fully agree without **** EA this game would be awesome. I dout that they would use this childish, cartoony graphics.

All they had to do would have been:
- import Daoc's combatsystem
- make players full lootable
- add some blood & gore

==>warhammer TT feeling

[Neek]

War will fall within the shadow of WoW, struggling to differentiate itself and falling into medocrity.

RvR is what doomed War for the niche that demands more, namely us.

Stuns, roots, snares do not have to even fall within the guidelines we're used to but for dynamic strategy they help instead of hinder.

I'll reiterate, a fastball in baseball w/o anything else makes for boring gameplay. Change ups, curve balls, splitters serve to shake things up. Just because interrupts have not been done well in a next gen MMO doesn't mean they are inherently wrong.

[Rhygar]

For a game dedicated to PvPers I'm surprised there has not been more of a defence of snares and stuns etc. Personally, I never play a ranged class so I never use those skills. They are pretty irritating as you just can't get to the damn fool using them!

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

For a game dedicated to PvPers I'm surprised there has not been more of a defence of snares and stuns etc. Personally, I never play a ranged class so I never use those skills. They are pretty irritating as you just can't get to the damn fool using them!

Probably because a majority think they have good enough reflexes that they don't need those kinds of things to compensate. But that's just a guess, also going off of the First Person standpoint, you don't come across those kinds of things that often and find other ways to dispatch of your enemy.

Personally, I rarely use the things in combat. If I do use them, in any situation, it's because I'm trying to run away, or that I'm bored and randomly dropping them.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Neek

I'll reiterate, a fastball in baseball w/o anything else makes for boring gameplay. Change ups, curve balls, splitters serve to shake things up. Just because interrupts have not been done well in a next gen MMO doesn't mean they are inherently wrong.

What you described there is what I want in the game, utility.

What roots/stuns/snares would be in that analogy is if the pitcher threw the ball, and the catcher held the bat for three seconds, and unless the batter could punch the catcher in the face fast enough, he doesn't even have a chance to swing at the ball.

There is a huge difference.

[Mitten]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

Honestly, I'm against unneeded debuffs. Why have roots/stuns/snares anyway? These can be abused in PvP if multiple people have them. In their stead I propose utility moves. For casters, give them teleports, evasion bonuses, illusions, limited flight, huge jumps, and quicked movement of any types. Rogue archetypes should be able to grab things like increased movement speeds, massive temp evasion buffs, a debuff that messes with the opponent's screen, but has no other effect. Soldiers should have endurance type buffs, sprints, no-flinches, large damage mitigation buffs, etc...

These make the caster harder to kill, not the target easier to kill, which is way harder to abuse when it comes to group fights.

However, this isn't to say debuffs should be removed entirely, just make them a lot more rare and specific. For example, a rope arrow that prevents a target from getting too far from the caster. Soldiers should have a type of sheild bash or rush. Rogues I don't believe should have any stuns, snares, or roots, (save for a rope arrow or a trap of some type), instead they should focus entirely on self utility.

Quite possibly the most prospostrous ideas I have ever read. Go read up and see why stuns and every other sort of cc is counterable and effective in pvp and pve in wow before saying they are not needed. People for example can flame wow and say cc fucks up the game, actually it adds skill and some thought to the game. If all the game was about who can button mash the fastest and do the most dps first then yes play that game with no skill. You think having a class that can kite anyone is fun if you couldnt atleast do some cc? Get a bloody grip on reality.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Mitten

Quite possibly the most prospostrous ideas I have ever read. Go read up and see why stuns and every other sort of cc is counterable and effective in pvp and pve in wow before saying they are not needed. People for example can flame wow and say cc fucks up the game, actually it adds skill and some thought to the game. If all the game was about who can button mash the fastest and do the most dps first then yes play that game with no skill. You think having a class that can kite anyone is fun if you couldnt atleast do some cc? Get a bloody grip on reality.

I want to respond to this, but I'll wait and see if Zigkirby does.

Are you a WoW fan? If you are then welcome to the twilight zone. Be warned, though, you will read about many other new and disturbing ideas here.

Personally I'm impartial to this particular debate.

[Mitten]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

I want to respond to this, but I'll wait and see if Zigkirby does.

Are you a WoW fan? If you are then welcome to the twilight zone. Be warned, though, you will read about many other new and disturbing ideas here.

Personally I'm impartial to this particular debate.

What does me being a wow fan or not have anything o do with it? jesus christ here we go are you going to come up with

"go back to wow"????.

If you dont even understand how cc works and benefits a game why talk about it? Its quite obvious other than calling me a wow fanboi you have nothign to add. So here im not going to respond to anythign now, as its quite obviuos this game will be destoyed by the lead brained morons here, jumping from mmo to mmo ruining any sort of decent game, ala vanguard, dnl, aoc and even warhammer.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Mitten

What does me being a wow fan or not have anything o do with it? jesus christ here we go are you going to come up with

"go back to wow"????.

If you dont even understand how cc works and benefits a game why talk about it? Its quite obvious other than calling me a wow fanboi you have nothign to add. So here im not going to respond to anythign now, as its quite obviuos this game will be destoyed by the lead brained fanbois morons here, jumping from mmo to mmo runing any sort of decent game, ala vanguard, dnl, aoc and even warhammer.

Now, now, calm down. I wasn't insulting you.

I didn't call you a fanboi of anything. And no don't go back to WoW. We want you to stay and see how much better Mortal will be.

The reason I ask is because you disregarded his idea because of your experience in WoW. I don't have a problem with stuns so makes no diffs to me.

However, you won't believe how many people come to this forum and query every fundamental of Mortal because they can't see it working in a WoW type of game. So I am trying to establish with what mindset you are here.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

Honestly, I'm against unneeded debuffs. Why have roots/stuns/snares anyway? These can be abused in PvP if multiple people have them. In their stead I propose utility moves. For casters, give them teleports, evasion bonuses, illusions, limited flight, huge jumps, and quicked movement of any types. Rogue archetypes should be able to grab things like increased movement speeds, massive temp evasion buffs, a debuff that messes with the opponent's screen, but has no other effect. Soldiers should have endurance type buffs, sprints, no-flinches, large damage mitigation buffs, etc...

These make the caster harder to kill, not the target easier to kill, which is way harder to abuse when it comes to group fights.

However, this isn't to say debuffs should be removed entirely, just make them a lot more rare and specific. For example, a rope arrow that prevents a target from getting too far from the caster. Soldiers should have a type of sheild bash or rush. Rogues I don't believe should have any stuns, snares, or roots, (save for a rope arrow or a trap of some type), instead they should focus entirely on self utility.

Couldn't agree more. Seems like MO will turn out this way too.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Mitten

Quite possibly the most prospostrous ideas I have ever read. Go read up and see why stuns and every other sort of cc is counterable and effective in pvp and pve in wow before saying they are not needed. People for example can flame wow and say cc fucks up the game, actually it adds skill and some thought to the game. If all the game was about who can button mash the fastest and do the most dps first then yes play that game with no skill. You think having a class that can kite anyone is fun if you couldnt atleast do some cc? Get a bloody grip on reality.

While I do agree with you that CC does add a level of skill to the game, it also detracts from a PvP environment just as much as rigid class-based system detracts from it. Utility, however, adds more than CC by being able to adapt to almost any situation, not by making a target or two useless for a set amount of time, but putting yourself in a better position to win, be it a buff to you or a change in environment.

Because it seems you know WoW the best, I will use WoW examples.

Like I said, CC does add skill, of course, but the type of skill is simply formula skill in WoW. In a team scenario, if you can stun the healer(s) and focus fire on their most skilled or their most feared team mate, then the odds are in your favor, while they can't do much about it except blow cooldowns until you either run out of CC to use or they are stuck there. Counters, though, have to be everywhere even to get a semblance of "balance" in WoW.

However, in a game like Mortal, where it's first person and you are not restricted in weapon choice, you can't be kited if there is no CC. Archer pulls out a bow? You can -dodge the arrows- (scary though, I know) and pull out your own bow. Mage starts lobbing fireballs at you when you're a sword and board pally? Move on up and block (yes, you will be able to block physical spells) and heal when needed.

Now let's add utility skills into the the same situation, kiting.

Archer tries to snipe you and you're a short range class? Pop a potion that blurs you so it's hard for him to aim. Use a spell that changes the wind so his arrows miss. Use a spell to teleport you closer to him. Invest into the -speed attribute- so you run him down.

Really it just seems as though you think this will be another game just like WoW only it's first person. I suggest you read the FAQ.

jumping from mmo to mmo ruining any sort of decent game, ala vanguard, dnl, aoc and even warhammer.

Actually, the higher ups are the ones who destroyed those games. Vanguard was forced to launch early, as well as AoC. EA bought Mythic, the company that produced Warhammer, EA told them to make it like WoW and ship it.

[Gungrave]

Complete absence of crowd control will be nice to see. That's maybe the cheapest and most broken/frustrating way developers can use to create "balance" in pvp.

[Gisel]

Can't you just have the ensnare/entangle as a small AOE spell/item. This way it is very skill ballanced on both sides.
The chased player has to zig-zag and the chaser has to predict the chased moves. On the otherhand, then entangle itself would have to be a little bit longer lasting. An addition to this would be a entangle remove spell. Don't have too many ideas of that, mayby som button spamming or whatever...

(Sorry if i'm saying the same stuf someone else just said, just too tired to read all this )