Stuns, Roots, Snares, Oh MY!

[Neek]

Touchy subject I know.

These will be in MO, there has yet to be a MMO that didn't have a combination of the three. The discussion is HOW to bring something once thought to be static into the realm of dynamic. The key lies in the clutch.

1. Stuns - Rather than what we've come to expect my vision is to invoke a hefty cost be it stamina, mana, or some form of exhaustion to limit this as much as possible. Stun should be used to regroup in a dire situation, retreat, interrupt, or enable a well placed attack BY A TEAM MEMBER re: coordination. Moreover, stuns should be available to heavy strength based melee and certain caster-type skills and ultimately short in length.

Effects: Paralysis for 2 secs max and disorientation for an additional 2 secs i.e. screen goes blurry.

I don't want to see it used as a means to gain an uncontested upper hand on your opponent for 6 secs or more with near full vitals to unleash an attack on a helpless target. Not gratifying, not fun, not dynamic.

2. Roots - Instead of traditional castable roots from magic skills, open this up to melee as well with player-made thrown leg traps. Obviously high armored players should be more susceptible to a longer root duration due to their dmg mitigation and sluggishness. Before you think heavy armored are getting the short end of the stick remember they can use these as well and seeing how they are STR based they can throw them farther. The leg trap should be aimed while in FP view and you HAVE to successfully target the legs.

Roots are intended to discourage kiting and those trying to escape, thus rooting a knight will perhaps just delay the inevitable for a mediocre player. I would love to see in FPV a player running and jumping like an idiot only to get rooted and fall down.

Effect: Unable to move until freed through "release" skill. Less armor equals faster use of said skill and recovery time. Distance thrown depends on str/dex.

I do not want to see, push a button, cast bar fills up, target is rooted or resists. I do not want to see leg traps throw toward head level and still root the player.

3. Snares - Should be available to all players in that a leg cut should snare for melee, and a magic skill with an added snaring affect one must choose to train into - nevertheless available. Taking from the 2 above, the durations should be short. Snares are to be used to gain a very temporary positioning advantage NOT kite. Magic snares should be given to those who train skills affecting the time dimension of the target thus slowing their perception of real time.

Effect: Movement rate reduced by no more than 25% for no more than 5 secs at max.

I do not want to see snares with more than 50% reduced movement for a long duration. Further I do not want snares restricted within a chosen few skill sets i.e. only through one path.

----Counters----Most definitely. Pots, dispells, reflects, etc.

Summary: Melee can stun/root/snare - casters can stun/root/snare - both effectively.

This is just a few ideas I'm throwing around. CC done right is a great way to throw some well timed game changers and to break up hack/slash, cast/slash, cast/cast that can become linear. Coordination with effective combinations via solo as well as group is adding to gameplay. I realize the irony: interrupting the gameplay made fun through interrupts, but that's because these abilities have yet to be done right imo.

Your input is wanted...

[Zigkirby]

Honestly, I'm against unneeded debuffs. Why have roots/stuns/snares anyway? These can be abused in PvP if multiple people have them. In their stead I propose utility moves. For casters, give them teleports, evasion bonuses, illusions, limited flight, huge jumps, and quicked movement of any types. Rogue archetypes should be able to grab things like increased movement speeds, massive temp evasion buffs, a debuff that messes with the opponent's screen, but has no other effect. Soldiers should have endurance type buffs, sprints, no-flinches, large damage mitigation buffs, etc...

These make the caster harder to kill, not the target easier to kill, which is way harder to abuse when it comes to group fights.

However, this isn't to say debuffs should be removed entirely, just make them a lot more rare and specific. For example, a rope arrow that prevents a target from getting too far from the caster. Soldiers should have a type of sheild bash or rush. Rogues I don't believe should have any stuns, snares, or roots, (save for a rope arrow or a trap of some type), instead they should focus entirely on self utility.

[Shinzon]

This is a next gen MMO right? Why not transfer theese previously static objects into graphics? Going of what you have said:

Stun (Imagine you got hit in the head with a maul) - Screen goes blurry and a bit shaky; same effect, but the reciever has a chance to still fight back

Roots - Screen gets tangled with roots; possible over the UI as well (Breaking the 4th wall), so much like the stun, the player can still move about; but they can't see everything that is going as clear...

[Neek]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

This is a next gen MMO right? Why not transfer theese previously static objects into graphics? Going of what you have said:

Stun (Imagine you got hit in the head with a maul) - Screen goes blurry and a bit shaky; same effect, but the reciever has a chance to still fight back

Roots - Screen gets tangled with roots; possible over the UI as well (Breaking the 4th wall), so much like the stun, the player can still move about; but they can't see everything that is going as clear...

That's my sentiment as well. For instance, an agile player executes a skill "kick dirt" and your screen goes black for 3 secs. You can still swing/cast around wildly and perhaps land a blow on a careless player.

What I'm attempting here is offering what we're used to in ways that's effective in clutch moments, but not abused in 1v1 GvG due to long durations with no inherent cost. Also I want the player's to be able to craft some of these contraptions thus boosting player's control on it's market.

I take that MO's gameplay is going to be fast and furious, something a little offspeed sets up better strategies along with the abilities Zig suggested.

[Sam]

I am a huge fan of how flash/stun grenades worked in CoD4. I'd like to see something similar used in a MMO.

The whole "targeting their legs" thing sounds good in theory, but I dunno if we're ready for such a limited hit box just yet. I mean, in a FPS they can do it, but they aren't dealing with as many players thus less latency in most cases.

ETA: I'm definitely on board with the stuns/roots/snares making more sense, though. I'd love to see abilities based more on reality, especially for fighter classes.

[Killermandude]

I definately don't like the feeling of helplessness while playing RPG's, while they do add a sense of realism, it's a mechanic that I have yet to see perfected.

An RPG on the xbox360, Phantasy star, would be THE single worst example of this that I have seen to date.

It is entirely possible to sit stunned for 5-10 seconds on a single hit against you.
If you get stunned in the wrong spot - it's actually possible to get stunned, wear off, get frozen, wear off, then the mob attacks again once the ice is out, so you're stunned again.
We're talking 20-50 seconds of NOTHING.
Not only does this get boring, but it's down right agitating.

I'm not playing the game to watch my charecter limp at 12% speed, with a blurry screen, unable to use 3/4 of my spells while a dog is chewing on my pants legs slowing my already slow speed to a jaggedy "Chance to trip" walk.

I would really love to hear more about how they'll impliment this, because it's a small mechanic that can make/break a game for me (I don't play phantasy star anymore simply because I can't sit there stunned that long)

[SkirmCard]

How about no roots or snares? Only different ways to stun characters. There could be a blinding spell, exploding arrow, a heavy hit to the head, or a flashbang (Ninja style).

I like the idea of the GUI/display being disrupted for a few seconds.

Example 1:
An exploding arrow goes off in front of my face and I am blinded for a few seconds. As it wears off, my screen comes slowly into focus and I squint to try to make out what's happening. Paying close attention to every detail on the screen as they come up.

Example 2:
I get rooted by a spell and sit there on my ass thinking only of how angry/bored I am staring at a counter as it ticks down to when I can move again.

I personally like example 1 much better.

[Neek]

You can have both equally made effective and fun.

Rehashing my take on roots. Spell only roots leave much to be desired.

A crafted bola takes it to a more realistic and fun level. Here's why:

- Crafters have a direct impact on PvP

- You have to aim via FPV to successfully root

- Cloth/light armor can free themselves faster and dex affects steady aim, str based players can throw them farther

- max duration for anyone hit with a bola is 6 secs with a possibility to free yourself in as little as 1 sec

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Neek

You can have both equally made effective and fun.

Rehashing my take on roots. Spell only roots leave much to be desired.

A crafted bola takes it to a more realistic and fun level. Here's why:

- Crafters have a direct impact on PvP

- You have to aim via FPV to successfully root

- Cloth/light armor can free themselves faster and dex affects steady aim, str based players can throw them farther

- max duration for anyone hit with a bola is 6 secs with a possibility to free yourself in as little as 1 sec

Not to mention Bola have a minimum range, that is, unless you're crouching.

But again, I think having more self utility would be better than having more stun/root/snares. Making yourself harder to kill does turn out to be more fun/challenging for everyone than making others easier to kill.

[Heliopios]

If you can cut roots/bolas from your legs, I want rooting, if not, no.

[Neek]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

Making yourself harder to kill does turn out to be more fun/challenging for everyone than making others easier to kill.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by Heliopios

If you can cut roots/bolas from your legs, I want rooting, if not, no.

The lighter the armor, the faster the "release" skill will free your legs.

[Faidor]

I kind of like this idea. Introducing things such as the bolas or a net would be awesome.

[Heliopios]

Originally Posted by Neek

The lighter the armor, the faster the "release" skill will free your legs.

So they magically come off after a duration of time? That seems to be skipping about three steps of the 'Get unstuck' part of the interaction.

[Kaoy]

If you can jump over them as they come towards you, I am for the idea. I still thing mages should have a skill that slows or stop movement for a second. Keep in mind, casters are always squishy as hell, so they need to kite a bit in PvP, ecspecially with cast times. For that reason, the need improved ablity to slow/trap. Nothing big. Think Ice on your ankles. You can get out of those traps with a certain skill, why not get out of the ice by wacking at it a few times. The higher the skill level of the casters spell, the harder the ice is, and the more more damage it needs to take. The ice could lose health on its own from melting at a constant rate, as well, so hitting it just makes it go away faster.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Kaoy

If you can jump over them as they come towards you, I am for the idea. I still thing mages should have a skill that slows or stop movement for a second. Keep in mind, casters are always squishy as hell, so they need to kite a bit in PvP, ecspecially with cast times. For that reason, the need improved ablity to slow/trap. Nothing big. Think Ice on your ankles. You can get out of those traps with a certain skill, why not get out of the ice by wacking at it a few times. The higher the skill level of the casters spell, the harder the ice is, and the more more damage it needs to take. The ice could lose health on its own from melting at a constant rate, as well, so hitting it just makes it go away faster.

Mages don't need slows, they just need to have the option of more utility. They can have a spammy teleport, they can have a spell that makes illusion copies of himself, he can have a spell that messes with his opponent's screen, he can have a spell that makes him jump a long distance, he can have a reflective armor spell that lasts for a few seconds, etc...

There are a lore more options than the standard debuffs.

[Neek]

Originally Posted by Heliopios

So they magically come off after a duration of time? That seems to be skipping about three steps of the 'Get unstuck' part of the interaction.

Rooting should last no longer than 6ish secs even if the skill is not trained up or used properly because lasting too long would lead to abuse.

What three steps are you referring to?

[Heliopios]

Originally Posted by Neek

Rooting should last no longer than 6ish secs even if the skill is not trained up or used properly because lasting too long would lead to abuse.

What three steps are you referring to?

Get someone to throw bolas around your legs. Stand there and wait for them to fly off.


They don't.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Heliopios

Get someone to throw bolas around your legs. Stand there and wait for them to fly off.


They don't.

We're talking about balance not realism here. If I had a hardon for realism then someone should die from one or two arrows. If I cared about realism I would be against magic being in the game. If I cared about realism I would want humans only, males have all around higher physical stats than females, and equal mental stats.

Quit. Seriously.

[Modest]

If we would be getting real FPV where you can actually see the entire front of your body by dragging the camera down to the bottom, maybe you could start slashing away at your feet in order to free yourself.
However I suppose this would be rather perplexing to actually put in a game. Something that might be easier, and still *somewhat* realistic, is having to still aim at the various traps and snares that might be lingering around your feet, but having it pop up a tooltip-esque option which, when clicked, brings up a casting-bar which has a certain timer, perhaps depending on your dexterity, armor and weapon-type.
As getting off a rope might not be equally easy while running around in a tin-can swinging a big mace, as it would be in a nimble leather armor with a dagger in your hands.

However, I too am a fan of the stun/flash - effects in Call of Duty 4, as they render you pretty much useless, but you're useless in a way that resembles veridical uselessness! While you sometimes pull off that lucky shot which probably results in rendering the majority of the gamer-population furious, I doubt anyone in their right mind would just wander aimlessly in a circle just because someone just blinded them in the middle of a battle.
Something that would be fun to come across in Mortal would be the (oh so cliché) 'throw-sand-in-opponent's-eyes' - comeback, only useable while rooted or thrown to the ground. Awesome.

But enough with the brainstorming, I sincerely do not want to see the common phenomenon which is currently very visible in WoW where the 'high-end' battles are more like a game of tag equipped with tazers.

[Jutsin]

I'm definitely more for utility of spells/abilities than I am for CC (stuns, roots, charms, etc).

I'm playing AoC at the moment, and the use of CC is pretty ridiculous. The majority of classes have a sure-fire "I Win" combo that makes good use of their trick bag of CC.

ie: Root unsuspecting player, nuke and follow up with immediate charm, nuke and follow up with immediate stun, nuke again for overkill if they're somehow not dead already.

What does this accomplish? One person sitting there pushing buttons, and the other person sitting there helplessly watching their character die.

I think *SOME* CC can be tasteful, but I'd much prefer to have none, or very little - similar to the older UO gameplay (I can only think of paralyze as a CC spell and Bolas more "recently").

[Heliopios]

Originally Posted by Zigkirby

We're talking about balance not realism here. If I had a hardon for realism then someone should die from one or two arrows. If I cared about realism I would be against magic being in the game. If I cared about realism I would want humans only, males have all around higher physical stats than females, and equal mental stats.

Quit. Seriously.

I could understand some mage's 'ensnare' spell going away after a few seconds, yet, if you had a sword, and some bolas tangled around your feet, you can't cut them because that's SUPER FUCKING REALISTIC AND IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPREHEND. Find a real argument against cutting of ropes.

[Zigkirby]

Originally Posted by Heliopios

I could understand some mage's 'ensnare' spell going away after a few seconds, yet, if you had a sword, and some bolas tangled around your feet, you can't cut them because that's SUPER FUCKING REALISTIC AND IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPREHEND. Find a real argument against cutting of ropes.

What if the target wielded only a staff or mace? Easy or hard to complete, depending on situationals != balanced.

[Don Quixote]

Originally Posted by Jutsin

I think *SOME* CC can be tasteful, but I'd much prefer to have none, or very little - similar to the older UO gameplay (I can only think of paralyze as a CC spell and Bolas more "recently").

The bolas were interesting in UO, and very useful in ganking situations. I.E, well-known PK'er is running near Brit Moongate in Fel on a T1 connection. No one can catch him, simply because of his speed, so what do you do? Grab a bola and knock him off the freakin' horse.

It was also funny to see people cast paralyze only to find themself stuck as they hit a Magic Reflection.

Originally Posted by Neek

2. Roots - Instead of traditional castable roots from magic skills, open this up to melee as well with player-made thrown leg traps. Obviously high armored players should be more susceptible to a longer root duration due to their dmg mitigation and sluggishness. Before you think heavy armored are getting the short end of the stick remember they can use these as well and seeing how they are STR based they can throw them farther. The leg trap should be aimed while in FP view and you HAVE to successfully target the legs.

Just had a thought when reading this one... What if, instead of throwing at the legs, you intentionally throw it at the neck? If your character has enough precision to throw it at the neck, then it should land. The ending result, would be decreased speed, choking, shaking screen most likely. Would be interesting to see a player trying to 'run' away whilst he has a bola wrapped around his head in a constrictor type strength.

As for other parts of the body, why not throw it around the midsection and hope to 'tie and arm behind his back' type deal? The player would still be able to run at full-speed, but he'd be useless until he stopped and tried to undo his bindings, and if the pursuer was able to catch up, then that player would be at a major disadvantage, simply because he's only using one arm.

Now, that allows for a new type of crafting. I recently saw the new Dark Knight movie, and Batman likes to use his forearms to attack. Simply, because they have razor sharp spikes/blades whatever you want to call them. Why can't a Legendary Blacksmith, be able to craft something of this magnitude? Doesn't seem to me as if it'd take that much more skill to add a blade to the side of a piece of armor. In this instance, you get two different type of merchants working side-by-side. Armor smiths and Weapon smiths. Each working with the same objective in mind. To protect the average 'tank' from getting tied up with a bola, or something along those lines.

Now, if you can add it to the arms, why not the legs? It would be a counter-active to being bola'd around the legs, although it seems a little far-fetched I might say, but nontheless as you move around, the spikes go up and down, and eventually you'll snap the rope. No need for a casting bar of anything of that sort, just movement. If you wind up laying on the floor, you can wriggle your legs up and down, in hopes of cutting the bola.


Sorry, if I'm a little long-winded.

[Sleeping with the fishes]

Yes booo for realism in a fantasy world! I want apples to float in the air, the elephants should be purple and fly with their ears and sing songs like "Im a chuu chuu train!".
Water should be hard, fire should be cold, ice should be hot, the ground should be soft so you can jump REAL HIGH and if you hit someone with a sword, it should be transformed to a sausage!

No, for real, realism can and SHOULD exist in a fantasy world!