Magic - how could we make it more unique

[1reaver1]

Posted this one someones link they had in their sig but probably more appropriate in this forum. (feel free to post any magic ideas or concepts. would be nice to have a source for each major element of the game in the posts. I love the casters, so i'll stick to this one i guess.)



While i am not for reagents, i am for experimenting. It would be interesting to intellegently experiment with arcane knowledge and movements to develop your own customized spells. Not sure how complicated you could get, but what would happen if i mix some speach and movements of a standard fireball spell awarded to me but also some from a lightning spell.

Would i create "fire rain"?
Would i create a "ball of firely lightning" that caused both types of damage?
If i have a low skill would I catch myself on fire including any members in my group within 10 yard?

Better find a nice quite place to practice and then drop your creations into hot buttons.

(note: if you do something like this, it would be nice if you don't get penialized for emploding yourself. Or at least not as harshly as being killed by a mob. It would bite to have a craft that keeps you crippled.......or would it.....hhhmmm)

You are basically crafting a spell of your own making. Give a slider bar to choose what spell is dominate in the mixure and to what degree. The effects could even be randomized a bit for stats when you do the same things. This way if you stumble on a good combo (i.e. a master crafted version) you can drop it on a hot bar and always have it. No different than crafting a rare master piece of armor. Just make it random and rare but saveable once it is done.

[Sleeping with the fishes]

Perhaps steal some ideas from Arx Fatalis and Dark Messiah for the "method of casting" and then take a look at D&D:s very very very nice and well thought through magic "schools&rules" (D&D such as Baldurs gate and NWN).

Stealing a lot from here sure could be a very good start.

[ccoa]

I like the idea, sort of like from an alchemists point of view. Except you know, not reagents but schools of magic.

Maybe instead of a slider bar make it slots that way it would make it easier to put in certain magics.

Say you have a spell that allows 4 different schools of magic, so it has 4 slots, and you could put 4 fire essences and create a really good fireball. The options would be limitless and would definetly give you a unique spell caster.

Maybe you could find special areas that allow you to use certain essences. Sort of like some fire altar lets you use like magma essences so you would promote exploration and if you found one of these spots you could create some really really cool spell no one has seen.

And like reaver said give each essence a random effect, that way spells are random and you could stumble on a really epic one.

[l0kkinen]

creating your own spells by combining different schools of magic or essences would definitely be interesting, provided it's random enough. every1 just repeating the same combinations to get those ultimate spells isn't actually that great. However, it would still make spellcasting more interesting.

[ccoa]

But that goes for anything. If you discover something, someone else will. Which means that it will be on the internet. No matter how hard you try to prevent it people will try to find an easy way to get it, it's just human nature.

But, provided it is random it could definatley change things. Say people find out that 4 fire essences and a ice essence creates some frostfire spell, if its random not every one will have created the frostfire spell, maybe they will end up creating a waterbolt.

[1reaver1]

with random stats associated with them to some degree as well, even if you try youmight have to create to 100 times to get the master version since it is a rare create.

the whole thing, no matter what route/system you went, wouldn't be much harder to create than any other crafting system.

would be funny in itself just seeing someone creating stuff while walking by and suddenly they catch on fire or turn into ice...lol

[Traceur]

i am personally more for occult sort of magic, so yes for reagents, yes for drawing pentagrams on the floor, yes for chanting, yes for all of those...

just don't make magic into a short cut for everything else.

[Probotektor]

I like the idea very much.

I´ve experienced a similar system in the game "Wheel of time" (very old, but imo a reference considering innovations in game development).

In order to pacify Traceur a little, I´ve seen in a lot of games, that magic has always been split up in different schools like necromancy, white magic, black magic, witchcraft and so on.

These different schools would need different ways of creating new spells.
So I could very well think of creating a new spell out of the necromancy-school you would need a corpse and maybe some bizzar alchemy stuff.

White magic could only be learned at some holy place (something like stone henge maybe? Would look cool. Never try to come up with something new, when you can just steal it elsewhere.^^)

Black magic should be best working in some really evil place, like the entombement of some vile, long forgotten god.

Witchcraft-spell creation could be limited to some spooky bog.


Now we would come to the interesting part: How would I be able to combine different schools with each other when I need a specific place to create them?

Inscribe spells on scrolls (would be great for business, too) and take them with you to the place you need for the other school.



So there would be incredibly many ways of combination and it would take very long to learn the new spells, but it would be fun and it would be credible in respect to an athmospheric environment.

I don´t think that Medivh, Gandalf, Belgarath or any other mage with some popularity has learned all his spells within a couple of days.^^

[Sleeping with the fishes]

It's nice to see that most guys here have wishes and ideas that I like
A dynamic magic system would be wonderful.

[Lyllyth]

Personally, I'm a fan of a Tree System when it comes to skills.

For the purpose of power, make every individual spell a skill.

Now break the magic system down in 4 levels of branches.
Law -> School -> Class -> Spell

Laws would be:
Channeler - This type of casting requires a Focus Item, some magical gem, a wand, etc. (Harry Potter?)
Diviner - This type of casting requires prayer to one's deity. (Cleric?)
Ritualist - This type of casting requires rituals, perhaps altars, etc. (Gypsy Curse?)
Sorcerer - This type of casting requires the use of both hands, but no focus item. (Allanon?)

Schools would be:
Abjuration - Abjurations are protective spells
Conjuration - Each conjuration spell belongs to one of three subschools: creation, summoning, or teleportation.
Divination - Divination spells enable the caster to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells.
Enchantment - Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. Enchantment spells can also place temporary or permanent effects up on items.
Evocation - Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.
Illusion - Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others
Transmutation - Transmutation spells change the physical properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

Classes would be:
Air
Earth
Fire
Water
Energy/Force

Now, some spells would be unique to a specific Law, most would cross over. So, say Fireball could be cast by any of the Laws but the Law of Rituals. The Law of Rituals would have fewer/different spells at it's disposal than the other Schools, but would have the advantage of co-dependent casting, or, Multi-Mage Rituals to strengthen spells.

Numerical Skill:
Let's take a Pyro-Evoker-Sorcerer with the spell Fireball. The caster improves not only "Fireball" but also his Class of Fire, his School of Evocation, and his Law of Sorcery.

For his Fire Class, take the average of all Spell skills under that Class, this would be his "Fire Skill"
For his Evocation School, take the average of all the Classes under Evocation, this would be his "Evocation Skill".
Etc, etc.
So, as Fireball increases, so do the Base Skills. But they would advance slower, due to averages.

Now the Skill would reverberate back up the branches for terms of the use of spells. Say something to the effect of...
((Law+School+Class)*0.5)+Spell = Effective Skill (what is felt when the action is performed)

[1reaver1]

so going with the titles you choose: I would have access to one law but multipls schools and classes on one character right?

i like the layout, just want to make sure it doesn't stick me on one specific school and class. makes sense to choose you law, but the rest wouldn't be a single linear flow for abilities....right?

[Neek]

Originally Posted by 1reaver1

so going with the titles you choose: I would have access to one law but multipls schools and classes on one character right?

i like the layout, just want to make sure it doesn't stick me on one specific school and class. makes sense to choose you law, but the rest wouldn't be a single linear flow for abilities....right?

Linear is frowned upon. I think MO will be sure to avoid restricting player's choices.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by 1reaver1

so going with the titles you choose: I would have access to one law but multipls schools and classes on one character right?

i like the layout, just want to make sure it doesn't stick me on one specific school and class. makes sense to choose you law, but the rest wouldn't be a single linear flow for abilities....right?

Applying this to MO...
In MO you have a limited total number of Base Skill points available... But you are not limited as to what skills you want to train up.

[1reaver1]

yeap, that was my understanding. was just clarifying the vision the person was describing. linear would bite.

personally i'd like to be able to meld the spells we learn as well in some fashion like we descrided above. even from different classes of magic. If i can cast it, i hope i can tinker with it and try to develop unique combinations into a new type of spell. (with the rare randon chance of it being uber/master)

what caster out their would learn a spell and not tinker with the the possibilities, if they could? The whole magic system you ever read about is people learining arcane magic, developing new spells and having their own unique version. It would just be a lot different that all the other games out there where you basically just run around, "YEAH, i can cast Ice Comet now. WOOT!"

just a thought

[Probotektor]

I don´t like Skill Trees. It lies in the nature of a skill tree that you will never have enough points to spend in order to maximize all trees at the same time.

So you will be always bound to your tree (what will be in most cases the combination of skill points the community in common will call "The only way to skill.").

Me no like them skill trees.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Probotektor

I don´t like Skill Trees. It lies in the nature of a skill tree that you will never have enough points to spend in order to maximize all trees at the same time.

So you will be always bound to your tree (what will be in most cases the combination of skill points the community in common will call "The only way to skill.").

Me no like them skill trees.

So, you're saying that if you cannot be the Master-of-All, then you don't want to play?

Personally I prefer a system that indirectly forces one to either specialize or become a weaker Jack-of-all-Trades. Not one where everyone is the Master of every given skill.

One of my problems with most MMORPGs is that everyone is the same when it comes to being a Master.
Let's take WoW as an example (simply because it's familiar), every Tailor is a Master Tailor of the same skill. Every Weaponsmith is a Master, every Alchemist is a Master, every Cook is a Master, everyone with a Sword Skill is a Master.

My main problem with most MMORPGs is that, to start playing the game (enjoying the content that the game was designed around), you must first max your skills/level/etc. You have thereby ended your character's ability to grow... Game over. So, in a way, the game is over the moment it starts.

At second glance... I think you're confusing WoW's Talent Trees with a Skill System.

[Shinzon]

I don't like reagents being needed to cast a spell, though I have no problem in hunting down a ludicrous amounts of initial reagents in order to create the spell in the first place. Casting should be fast, easy and reliable; the hard work comes in creating the spell.

In the past there was talk of creating magic nexus points which leak magical energy and they can be depleeted. Theesse nexus points are required in order for all mages to create new spells; this creates an opportunity for conflict between the caster classes. Also you could factor in quality into the nexus; the initial starting ones are poor in quality allowing only for the creation of mediocre ones; with the good quality ones hidden away deep in MO, so this gives the explorer players a bonus.

As for the power of the internet, it will be a battle between those who choose to share their spells; and those who try and hide their recepies; with a free creation system it will be possible for some mages to keep their spells compleatly to themselves, while the internet acts just as a general guidline...

[auutumn]

If the server supports physics then allow the combination of elements during the casting to be potentially explosionsive based on the player's level and skill set.

[Lialith]

thinking about actually casting a spell, i like the idea of rune-magic very much. you know, you draw a symbol in the ear or on the ground that glows for a moment and then releases the spell. so as a player wouldnt it be boring to just klick at a symbol in your spellbook to actually let your character cast that spell?
What i was thinking about are mouse gestures, like they were used in the game "Black & White". There is also a mouse gesture plugin for firefox out there and i found a flash script that reads out your mouse gestures. If you are not shure what i i am talking about, just look at the flash example that can be found here: http://www.foxaweb.com/demos/mousege...estureDemo.swf (http://www.bytearray.org/?p=91)
So takeing that possibillity in account, why not let the player paint a specific symbol in order to let the character cast a specific spell? I think that would be much more challanging and exciting than just klicking on a spellicon. Offcourse it would limit the variaty of magic spells a bit and you would have to make up a relatively simple symbol vor each and every spell in the game... well i havent thought through that idea thoroughly jet, but after all, thats not my job anyway.

[Sigilaea]

Good idea.

The devs would have to normalize the values for the range of possible damage...or someone might randomly create a spell that could 1-shot a super boss. But they could randomize the effects and combine different vertex shaders to make new combinations of visuals.

One neat thing would be if your experiments changed the reagents or spell cost of the spell. If the Fireball spell uses 10 mana and 2 blood root, my experiment yields a fireball spell that shoots blue flames instead of orange; and uses 2 mana and 1 blood root.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Lialith

thinking about actually casting a spell, i like the idea of rune-magic very much. you know, you draw a symbol in the ear or on the ground that glows for a moment and then releases the spell. so as a player wouldnt it be boring to just klick at a symbol in your spellbook to actually let your character cast that spell?
What i was thinking about are mouse gestures, like they were used in the game "Black & White". There is also a mouse gesture plugin for firefox out there and i found a flash script that reads out your mouse gestures. If you are not sure what i i am talking about, just look at the flash example that can be found here: http://www.foxaweb.com/demos/mousege...estureDemo.swf (http://www.bytearray.org/?p=91)
So taking that possibility in account, why not let the player paint a specific symbol in order to let the character cast a specific spell? I think that would be much more challenging and exciting than just clicking on a spell icon. Of course it would limit the variety of magic spells a bit and you would have to make up a relatively simple symbol for each and every spell in the game... well i haven't thought through that idea thoroughly yet, but after all, that's not my job anyway.

I've read this idea a few times... To me it sounds more of a pain in the ass than a fun gimmick and would likely be unbalanced when archers and melee are mostly just point-n-click anyways.
The idea in itself is not a bad one, but for practical terms, I don't see it making the game enjoyable.

I posted some peripherals in the Off Topic area... Wii Remote + Wii Balance Board + Emotiv + Cyber Glove II...

I'd thought about the "immersive spell casting", and thought about using the Cyber Glove II for hand gestures (symbols) and the Emotiv for type (fire, frost, etc).
Though, that would be more of a VR game than what I believe MO is trying for.

[droper]

Avg gamer doesn't like uncertainty,they like to know what their opponent can and cannot do with a good degree of certainty. Also this makes for a pve and pvp balancing nightmare thats why the variables behind each skill must be preset and thought out in all its possible uses.

[kurrency420]

Lets take it back to asheron's call, make spellcasters have to collect items to cast spells, but not be as specific...Such as

You have a lightning storm spell you know, and it requires a HORN to cast. Now this horn could be from a lvl 10 boar or a lvl 50 rhino or something.. If you use the lvl 10 horn, u get a lightning storm equivalent to lvl 10, if you use the lvl 50 rhino horn, you get a lvl 50 lightning storm, if you have cast the LIGHTNING STORM spell enough and you are considered a master at it, you can use epic(or elite, or a more specific rarer horn) and get an even higher level of the spell when u cast it. I would suggest a horn have so many uses, 1-5 uses depending on typeand such. A small suggestion.

[Traceur]

AC had the best and worst magic system an MMO ever offered. best because it was so fun to experiment with all the components to get the result you wanted. worst because that hardly lasted and then it was not so much fun to follow pages of printed Internet instructions.

if I'd redo AC's system, I'd design it to last by giving each character different results from different component combinations, using some random factor. no Internet manuals - no copying from others - if you want to be a mage, start experimenting.

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Traceur

AC had the best and worst magic system an MMO ever offered. best because it was so fun to experiment with all the components to get the result you wanted. worst because that hardly lasted and then it was not so much fun to follow pages of printed Internet instructions.

if I'd redo AC's system, I'd design it to last by giving each character different results from different component combinations, using some random factor. no Internet manuals - no copying from others - if you want to be a mage, start experimenting.

Exaclty. A system like this would be great and it would also make mages verey unique. Makes me want to play a mage

[Kaoy]

I have to agree with the gist of of what Droper said. In PvP, it would be a complete nightmare to end up against a mage if you had no way of knowing what they were capable of. 'Do they have master form Meteor? Or maybe a master form Fire Wall? Gods, what if they have both? Wait. Why am I worrying about things I know they could have... what if they found 10 new spells I never even heard of???'

You would start the fight at a large disadvantadge since there is no way of knowing what they can do since each and every mage is different, but still deadly because of thier own creations.

If MO were to have nothing but mages, this could work. Since there are going to be other classes, this would make it unbalanced. A knight, archer or rouge can up thier gear and skills and stats, but a mage can up thier gear, skills, stats, and have entirely unique skills that noone has anyway to predict the actual effect of until they are already hit? That wouldn't work.

Personally, I feel that having your basic skills(the set that do have a limit) be something along the lines of Fire Invoction, Water/Ice Invoction, ect. As you cast skills based on each element, they level and after getting each one to a certain level, you can learn spells that combine the various elements. Want Water/Ice and Wind? You learn Large AoE's that can slow enemies. Life and Death? You some heals and some DoT's, but mainly necromatic powers. Want to focus on just Fire? Alright, you get to great burst damage and some decent DoT, but you lose out on that trapping Fire Tornado you get from Fire/Wind as well as other skills of the sort.

People would still start out not knowing what each mage could do, but if they see an Ice Spear, they know the chances are good they don't have to worry about Being hit with a Meteor. It would be even, since if that mage were to fight a rogue, they won't know if they have a focus on Poison Craft or Assasination. Watch them dissapear in the blink of an eye, and chances are good they are Assasination though.