PVP and 1rst vs 3rd person view.

[1reaver1]

i have to admit, not having 3rd person view is the ONLY thing making me skidish about this game. EVERYTHING else looks awesome. I don't want it for any PVP advantage over those using 1rst person.

What if they did something like this?

in 3rd person you can see all NPC's, mobs ect., but a "playing character" would not appear on the screen unless he was in your field of vision IN-GAME.


I agree, FP feels confining, limits view of the game content and i don't enjoy being a part of my character as much. i'd much rather be in 3rd, even if it meant me feeling safe while someone is actually walking up behind me in broad daylight getting ready to clean my clock. you could even make my define blind spot equal to the degrees that someone in first person has.

Best of both worlds and no one has an advantage.

[Sleeping with the fishes]

It's just a matter of getting used to it you'll see.
FP that is

The immersion, when swinging a 2-hander, in the HL2 MOD Age of Chivalry, seeing that head dislodge from the neck and rolling away on the ground splattering blood where it goes is... Wonderful

You get so close to the whole deal!

[ccoa]

I'm on both sides of the fence in this argument.

I too enjoy a 3rd person view, but for the sake of game mechanics and balance I'd have to go with 1st person.

Besides if there is a 3rd person option I'm sure it would be just like Oblivion. You have just as much disadvantage because it's harder to aim your swings and target specific body parts.

[Jutsin]

I'm all for 3rd person in MMOs, but I'm more than happy to give 1st a go and just get used to it.

It'll only be a matter of weeks until it's second nature, like 3rd used to be.

[HereticNova]

why not let the players choose what view they wanna use?
no game i know is restricted to only 1 perspective, even postal lets you chose between 1st and 3rd person view.

i'm quite sure they will implement both options, but we'll see.

[Grady]

my Feeling is that a 3rd person view is better for the identification with your ingame
avatar. A big part of mmorpg's is to equip yourself, get better stuff and finaly see it on yourself. Or Roleplay wise, wearing different gear on different occations. How would
that work in FP ? Mirrors everywhere ? ;-)

Grady

[The Last Spartan]

If you give them a choice, most PvPers will choose 3rd person because it will help them the most.

They've tried: First Person, Second Person, Third Person, Viewing yourself from the enemy's POV (in combat) and they've decided that First Person is best for what they're trying to accomplish.

[Neek]

If there's an option, 3rd person will become the norm like any other game because you can observe your surroundings better.

FPV restricts what the player sees, and this is why it adds to more heart pounding action.

[Insinfinity]

Originally Posted by 1reaver1

i have to admit, not having 3rd person view is the ONLY thing making me skidish about this game. EVERYTHING else looks awesome. I don't want it for any PVP advantage over those using 1rst person.

What if they did something like this?

in 3rd person you can see all NPC's, mobs ect., but a "playing character" would not appear on the screen unless he was in your field of vision IN-GAME.


I agree, FP feels confining, limits view of the game content and i don't enjoy being a part of my character as much. i'd much rather be in 3rd, even if it meant me feeling safe while someone is actually walking up behind me in broad daylight getting ready to clean my clock. you could even make my define blind spot equal to the degrees that someone in first person has.

Best of both worlds and no one has an advantage.

I personally like 1st person for many things but I think a 3rd person is necessary in this type of game.

Maybe you could have access to certain abilities only in 3rd person, maybe target able AoE abilities become available at a price of your movement or other things.

[Dagger]

I am highly hostile to 3rd person view. I never liked it, but in well-known MMOs like WoW and AoC it's kind of needed for the game to function well. As I understand it though, MO is going to incorporate the FPS aspect into MMO, which makes 3rd person view redundant. I don't really like the fact of someone knowing that I'm standing right behind them looting their pockets, unless they heard me coming or felt my hand in their pockets, and decides to turn around. This is just one examples of what possibilities 3rd person view leaves out.

[ccoa]

Plus with 1st person you can get a whole new type of stealth instead of the vanishing into thin air sort of thing.

[Rocky]

Adding on to ccoa, 3rd person views nearly destroy the ability to ambush someone. They can just turn their camera and check out what's behind that tree or rock. But with Mortal Online, they'll have to take a look for themselves, to either see a nice surprise or nothing at all

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Rocky

Adding on to ccoa, 3rd person views nearly destroy the ability to ambush someone. They can just turn their camera and check out what's behind that tree or rock. But with Mortal Online, they'll have to take a look for themselves, to either see a nice surprise or nothing at all

Right, I also despise tab targeting and names above peoples heads. It totally destroys the option to ambush people. But now I'm just getting off topic.

[Drakus]

I think everyone who is against FPV should wait to either see it or test it first before making your mind up. The dev's know what they're doing and they have a lot riding on Mortal Online, so I don't think they would implement a FPV MMO if it hindered the players experience.

FPV benefits off the top of my head:

• Skill based combat
• Greater action and immersion (feels like you're really there)
• Equalizes the playing field in regards to what you can and can't see
• Realistic stealth finally! (no more seeing another player creep up behind you)
• Visually identify other players better from being up close and in person

Even though the dev's have said being mounted will be in 3rd person, I would even like to see that in FPV as well, but I'll take my own advise and wait to see how it all comes together first before I really comment on it.

[Backstabber]

Originally Posted by Xulron

I think everyone who is against FPV should wait to either see it or test it first before making your mind up. The dev's know what they're doing and they have a lot riding on Mortal Online, so I don't think they would implement a FPV MMO if it hindered the players experience.

FPV benefits off the top of my head:

• Skill based combat
• Greater action and immersion (feels like you're really there)
• Equalizes the playing field in regards to what you can and can't see
• Realistic stealth finally! (no more seeing another player creep up behind you)
• Visually identify other players better from being up close and in person

Even though the dev's have said being mounted will be in 3rd person, I would even like to see that in FPV as well, but I'll take my own advise and wait to see how it all comes together first before I really comment on it.

Youd have skill based combat in third person too. It doesnt just come with first.

The sense of immersion occurs differently in different people. You may find first person immersive, but there are others who do no. So, you cannot say that in general terms that first person is more immersive, becuase its not for everyone.

First person doesnt make you feel like youre there. No camera view can simulate real life feeling in anyway. In first person, it looks like your character is walking around holding their weapon up near their face, Id hardly call that real. In real life, you have peripheral vision, not like a games first person where you have this little tunnel vision box to look out of. In real life, you have your other senses to that give your sense of awareness, hearing, feeling, even smelling. Unless the Mortal devs are planning on releasing some sort of immersion suit and helmet, I dont see this game or any other one for that matter being able to offer that, it feels like youre there, feeling.

A tight, close, and locked third person camera view would even things out, making the third person comparable to the first person by preventing panning around and zooming out. With the camera like this, you can still sneak up on people.

Play Splinter Cell online some time, youll see how third person is crutial to stealth in a game. First person would kill stealth as the player would have to press up close against an object, which would make remaining hidden an impossibility as they would have to emerge from cover to take a look around, exposing themselves and rendering stealth useless. The point of stealth is to remain un-noticed and unseen, not pop out and reveal yourself.

I deintification of players in first person is not a valid reason. What if that player is wearing a helmet? Then what? You cant see their face. The only way to be able to ID someone is if you run your cursor over them and their name appears. And that can happen in both first person and third.

Bottom line, the argument for all first person is weak. Third person can be allowed along side first person if it is implemented correctly. If you all fear players in third so much, then that means you suck completely at PvP and have to rely solely on back attacks.

Originally Posted by rocky

Adding on to ccoa, 3rd person views nearly destroy the ability to ambush someone. They can just turn their camera and check out what's behind that tree or rock. But with Mortal Online, they'll have to take a look for themselves, to either see a nice surprise or nothing at all

And how would they turn their camera to look around that tree? Wouldnt they have to go near it and get close to inspect it? Isnt that sort of what the ambusher wants? For their target to get close so they can attack them?

And if the camera is locked and unable to be panned around or zoomed out, what good would that do the person in third? They would still have to break from their group, send in a scout, and see what was there. The same as what they would have to do in first person.

Its called tactics. Learn them, because in a game like this, its what decideds battles, not the viewmode.

[Blahman]

Wow give it up Backstabber. It's obvious you're grasping at straws with that style of argument. Hyperbole, theorycrafting, and the authorative tone of someone who's already played the game... yet you haven't?

[Drakus]

@Backstabber: I don't mean to sound rude here, but if you don't like the idea of a FPV mmo, then I strongly suggest you find another game. The dev's have clearly stated several times that FPV is here to stay, unless of course, you're mounted which will change to 3rd person view.

EDIT: Also my post was merely my own opinions about what benefits a FPV mmo could bring to our gaming experience. Until you actually see or play Mortal Online, I wouldn't be so eager to pick apart the potential benefits of FPV. Who knows I maybe wrong, but none of us have seen the game play and mechanics come together in it's full glory yet. I say be patient and stick around like the rest of us to see if the dev's can truly pull off FPV successfully.

[Veith]

@Backstabber, watch your back (better be called backwatcher), sure in 3rd person view you dont need to watch your back, because you have nearly a 3-D radar around you, a circle you see all for comfort.
Thats best 'fantasy'-GPS. Factly you dont need a radar in zoomable 3rd person view. Would be 'double'-help-feature. But such help is really something interesting, challenging for a fantasy-PvP game?
A kind of shoulder view is very similar to 1srt person, but it needs also a bit difference for development then pure 1st person. 3rd person is to different to 1st person for gameplay.

But also dont understand me in a false way, i like also to watch my char in par example EQ2, Vanguard and all those half-automatic fights, but in MO combatgameplay and that special view will be obviously a really important aspect as gamerule. And like in other posts, its then for MO something essential also your taste will be not 100% satisfied. But would you change gamerules for Monopoly, chess, football, only because your taste says 'some rules i dont like and im knowing also folks dont like some rules of those games'? Im sure if anyone could change gamerules like (s)he wants we would get only veryvery uninteresting games, because those games must be designed in a way gamerules are unimportant.
A good game can only be a good game if there are strict rules for all the same, without possibility to be optional, the player must master. If rules are optional those are first no rules, and second without gamerules a game is not a game, its then only a place you can virtually play with toys, and for that i am to old, thats something i will do only in 'real' with my children. But dont demand such 'gameplay' for all MMORPG's, please. I write please because im a very polite fellow. I cannot change you, but i hope you are able to understand like i understand you, but for me 'taste' is for a game first unimportant, if the topic is generally interesting to me. But if devs are good workers then there will be also visual a very acceptable product.
But sure not developed in 3rd person view, its a decision actually made.

[Dagger]

Mind you, commenting on 3PV not being a viable option because of the expanded vision compared to FPV is not a valid reason in my opinion. You could simply implement fog of war as it is done in the good old game, Nox.
Nox is using eagle's eye view and doesn't include fog of war behind your character, but you get the idea by watching this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KGbJvbDMEf8

I simply think that 3PV has no place in a game like this, where combat mechanics work as any other FPV Shooter (FPS). The way it could be done is with fog of war and the Brute Force aim setup. This is basically what gears of War has used aswell, and can be seen here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bo0oHOS4Em0

FPV creates a whole different feeling to the game in my opinion, and is the main reason why I think it should be enforced. Also, there's never camera issues with FPV, where a camera can't follow you into tight spots, sticks over/under water surface, turns the wrong way while moving your character, etc. Fighting in FPV is also more intense than fighting in 3PV.

[SkirmCard]

I'm definitely all for FPV. When I play Mount & Blade I have much more fun fighting in FPV, to be able to see the faces of the characters I'm fighting and where exactly I'm hitting them with my very large sword.

However, if I'm in a tough battle I always (unfortunately) switch to 3rd Person View as I can see more and therefore seem to fight a little better in crowds. If a 3rd person view was offered I'm not sure I'd have the self-control not use use FPV, even though I enjoy it more when the combat system is skill based.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by SkirmCard

However, if I'm in a tough battle I always (unfortunately) switch to 3rd Person View as I can see more and therefore seem to fight a little better in crowds. If a 3rd person view was offered I'm not sure I'd have the self-control not use use FPV, even though I enjoy it more when the combat system is skill based.

I wouldn't worry about it mate, because the dev's have clearly stated that 3rd Person view will only be available when mounted.

[Veith]

@Xulron, for the mounted 3rd person view then fully zoomable or more a fixed shoulderview? For me it would be a bit curious why a rider is able to see in a circle around himself and a slipper walker not.
There should be really more details in which way different and exactly why.
Ok i have thousands ideas why, but i am really nosy about the real decision

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Veith

@Xulron, for the mounted 3rd person view then fully zoomable or more a fixed shoulderview? For me it would be a bit curious why a rider is able to see in a circle around himself and a slipper walker not.
There should be really more details in which way different and exactly why.
Ok i have thousands ideas why, but i am really nosy about the real decision

I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that turning around on a mount requires you to run in a half circle, while unmounted it's rather easy. You need to turn around in FPV to see if something's nearby at times, while in 3PV you only need to turn around if you want to see something a bit far away.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by Veith

@Xulron, for the mounted 3rd person view then fully zoomable or more a fixed shoulderview? For me it would be a bit curious why a rider is able to see in a circle around himself and a slipper walker not.
There should be really more details in which way different and exactly why.
Ok i have thousands ideas why, but i am really nosy about the real decision

I'm sure the dev's have their reasons, but your guess is as good as mine.

[Veith]

@Dagger @Xulron i think also devs have their reasons, but i am absolutely nosy in which way then realised. 3rd person dont mean automaticall full zoomable circling and so on. Its a difference if you are able to see a fixed circle around your char or you can move a camera like you want.

In another thread i also wrote, real mounted combat has the advantage of speed- and powerfull charges, the rider knows that and he aims his charge like a projectile shot. He knows if at full speed he cannot turn himself in a second. And the power of a mounted charge is a huge advantage, so for me there is the question 'why an additional advantage for more comfort in view?'
But i am sure we all get the answer in some weeks, months
But its at least for me a question i am interested in the answer.

[Schags]

When I played EQ I played nothing but 1st person. Now I find myself more into 3rd person with the new MMO's. The thing is, EQ's first person always felt better to me than anything else. I can easily see myself getting back into a 1st person view and liking it.