Roads and their uses (automated travel)

[Fortinbras]

Alright, so we'll be able to build houses. With any luck we'll have entire player-made villages and towns springing up organically. But has anyone brought up the possibility of building roads to connect them?

I assume not, since in most games they don't serve any real purpose but directing newbies to the nearest town. Giving players the ability to build their own roads would help make the game world look more realistic, as long as laying down a path isn't so trivial that anyone can clutter up the landscape with them. But more importantly there are several useful functions that a road system could serve in this game, no matter whether players or designers create them:

Fast travel - I'm against instant travel, particularly in a game with elements of large-scale strategy. Adding a speed bonus for travelling on roads would help reduce time spent on tedious, routine journeys though. If roads came with speed boosts then they'd be an invaluable asset to any prospective empire-builder, enabling you to outmaneuver those invading barbarian hordes.

Automated travel - something like WoW's flight-paths, except you're not entirely safe while using it and it can be set by the players themselves. I envision travelling on a road giving you the option to let your character autorun to designated points along it. You could theoretically still be attacked, but assuming you're in a relatively civilised area it should be safe to go afk while travelling.

NPC management - automated travel opens up new opportunities for programmable NPCs, if such things exist in this game. Why not have your road patrolled by guards, if you can afford it, or employ merchant caravans to carry ore from your mines to the marketplace?

Of course player-built roads with all these features would necessitate a hefty cost to build and maintain, and perhaps some restrictions on their placement, like you have to have a settlement of X number of buildings before you can build a road to it. I don't know, anyone else have any thoughts?

[Cardinal Harvest]

Its not a bad idea apart from "evading barbarian hordes"
If there is a known road route, why is that safe from attacking and ambushing?
On contrary, if players are using known road path its perfect for ambushing. Evading attacks with "speed" seems a bit unreal.

[Fortinbras]

I wasn't thinking so much of evading attacks as being in the right place to meet them.

[SkirmCard]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

Alright, so we'll be able to build houses. With any luck we'll have entire player-made villages and towns springing up organically. But has anyone brought up the possibility of building roads to connect them?

I assume not, since in most games they don't serve any real purpose but directing newbies to the nearest town. Giving players the ability to build their own roads would help make the game world look more realistic, as long as laying down a path isn't so trivial that anyone can clutter up the landscape with them. But more importantly there are several useful functions that a road system could serve in this game, no matter whether players or designers create them:

Fast travel - I'm against instant travel, particularly in a game with elements of large-scale strategy. Adding a speed bonus for travelling on roads would help reduce time spent on tedious, routine journeys though. If roads came with speed boosts then they'd be an invaluable asset to any prospective empire-builder, enabling you to outmaneuver those invading barbarian hordes.
?

I think this is a wonderful idea if it was a slight speed boost, nothing unrealisticly fast but a small bump. I always thought of roads on other games to be quite useless. I could see it being abused by gankers, but there are ways around it.

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

Automated travel - something like WoW's flight-paths, except you're not entirely safe while using it and it can be set by the players themselves. I envision travelling on a road giving you the option to let your character autorun to designated points along it. You could theoretically still be attacked, but assuming you're in a relatively civilised area it should be safe to go afk while travelling.
?

Also a nice idea. Gives the opportunity for people to play ambushers if they like, but also makes traveling easier and keeps everything pretty realistic.

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

Of course player-built roads with all these features would necessitate a hefty cost to build and maintain, and perhaps some restrictions on their placement, like you have to have a settlement of X number of buildings before you can build a road to it. I don't know, anyone else have any thoughts?

I agree with the heavy cost to build. I would suggest that roads can only be placed between city centers of a certain size (say only level 7 out of 10 castle/keep) and that the owner of the town can apply to have a road built from one place to another following certain way points. It can be reviewed by a GM at their convenience and allowed if it looks legit. There could also be penalties that if the road is used in a way it is not meant to be or abused the person who requested and paid for the road would be penalized.

[Dagger]

What could be done is the same that Romans did. Allow us to build sturdy roads so carriages can travel quickly across. Carriages could require several horses, with room for several people and their goods inside. Both players and guilds could own these, but I would imagine they would be a little costy for the average player.

If you wanted to stop a carriage, you would have to devise a trap because of the speed they would travel at. For example a speed bump sort of scheme. After it's stopped, those that were on it could fight back, and continue travelling afterwards if they manage to get the horses back on track. Possibly leaving the carriage behind while just escaping on the horsebacks.

That said, I do like the idea of building custom roads, but there should be somekind of rule behind it. Like, only if the owners between two cities agree to build a road between them. If everyone could build a road, it could just become confusing I think. It can't really be expensive to build a road, so the price wouldn't be a hindrance in itself.

[phuzz]

I like the idea of a speed boost and even of the auto run... I am aginst the idea of an instant travel. Getting somewhere means something when you actualy have to take the time and get there.

But realisticly roads should give a speed boost as that is how it is in real life(well not a 'boost' like what would happen in game).

As far as player built roads... have them built and run by the governing guild...

[ccoa]

I think it's a great idea and would could spark some conversation on the rules and benefits of roads.

Perhaps roads can effect the terrain or atleast be effected by the terrain, that way you don't see straight lines. Also it could effect the animal behavior, so most prey would steer away from the road while some predators may see it as an easy meal.

[SukaD]

I think it would be really cool (and by cool I mean it sounds good in my head but I don't think it could be implemented.) if players could forge their own trails just by using the same route over and over again.

For instance, you have a small hut in a clearing deep in a forest. You take the main road as far as it goes but then foot through the thick forest. Fighting your way through the underbrush takes a while but you eventually make it to home sweet home. After you finish your fletching/smelting/or whatever you were doing you make your way back through the forest and bum a ride off a farmer taking his harvest to the Guild granary. After a few trips out to your home you notice a small path starting to form on the forest floor. When you follow the path to your home you realize someone else has noticed it too, you find your door bashed in and anything too heavy to carry out or not worth the trip scattered around your home. You're thankful that they didn't burn the house but you realize that now that someone knows about your little secret hut it's no longer safe to use.

I do think that if players are allowed to develop roads that they should have the option to develop and expand them at a later time. The cheapest road would just be a smoothed out path with removed vegetation. Through use the ground could compact and become able to support animal-driven carts. If the guild wants to develop a major trade route the could elevate the road, pave it with stone, and allow for proper drainage. This would allow for trade in all weather (except for blizzards...).

I think it would be great if travel would be affected by terrain conditions and how you are traveling. Someone on foot in light clothing could go anywhere. Horsemen would have the advantage in the open fields. And carts could be driven over hard ground.

Just think, groups of theives could hire an elemental mage to cast down rain onto a dirt path and then jump the unsuspecting traders who get stuck in the mud.

[Cardinal Harvest]

Considering heavy cost on roads, ordinary player will not venture far from his neighbourhood for ___ months.
(insert random number in empty field)

And while no instant travelling, as you are suggesting, invading army on its way to enemy distant teritory could take weeks to reach.
I am not against that, lets say you know enemies are approaching so u have few days to prepare, but this is not rts game. And i doubt many players will welcome that "no instant travel" concept once game goes live.

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by SukaD

I think it would be really cool (and by cool I mean it sounds good in my head but I don't think it could be implemented.) if players could forge their own trails just by using the same route over and over again.

For instance, you have a small hut in a clearing deep in a forest. You take the main road as far as it goes but then foot through the thick forest. Fighting your way through the underbrush takes a while but you eventually make it to home sweet home. After you finish your fletching/smelting/or whatever you were doing you make your way back through the forest and bum a ride off a farmer taking his harvest to the Guild granary. After a few trips out to your home you notice a small path starting to form on the forest floor. When you follow the path to your home you realize someone else has noticed it too, you find your door bashed in and anything too heavy to carry out or not worth the trip scattered around your home. You're thankful that they didn't burn the house but you realize that now that someone knows about your little secret hut it's no longer safe to use.

I had that same idea and I also thought it would be near impossible to implement. But it would take more than one or two trips to form a path like that. Maybe a couple dozen, unless you purposley cleared the brush and wore cleats.

[Shinzon]

With instant travel local economies are useless; the enemy is able to just "Warp In" to attack you, or a group can stand infront of the "Warp Gate" and just gank everything that comes through one at a time...

EVE Online has no instant travel; look how that is turning out

[Cardinal Harvest]

It has, and its called jump clones.
Other than that, cyno fields.

You almost got me

[Fortinbras]

Originally Posted by SukaD

I think it would be really cool (and by cool I mean it sounds good in my head but I don't think it could be implemented.) if players could forge their own trails just by using the same route over and over again.

That would be cool but I doubt it's feasible. It might be asking a bit much for the server to keep track of where every player has ever been so it can alter the ground where their paths coincide.

I do think that if players are allowed to develop roads that they should have the option to develop and expand them at a later time. The cheapest road would just be a smoothed out path with removed vegetation. Through use the ground could compact and become able to support animal-driven carts.

Certainly there should be different grades of road. Naturally a paved highway should be more useful than a dirt track, at correspondingly greater cost.

And I hadn't even thought of carts and wagons! If there are forms of transport that only operate on a road, and if they let you carry far more than you could on foot, then a good road network becomes all the more valuable and an essential strategic asset!

Originally Posted by Cardinal Harvest

And while no instant travelling, as you are suggesting, invading army on its way to enemy distant teritory could take weeks to reach.
I am not against that, lets say you know enemies are approaching so u have few days to prepare, but this is not rts game. And i doubt many players will welcome that "no instant travel" concept once game goes live.

I'm sure that the ease of travel is something the developers are heatedly debating. But until we hear more from them, here's a notional compromise: what if it was relatively simple to move your character over long distances, whether by flying or teleporting or just hard riding, it doesn't matter, but if you want to efficiently transport a large quantity of goods or materials then you have to rely on the slow, dangerous roads.

Hmm. Or perhaps a boat would be better yet. Rivers and seas are the lifeblood of medieval economies. I just like the idea of a game where simply getting around the place requires planning.

[Shinzon]

It has, and its called jump clones.
Other than that, cyno fields.

The clones are stricly part of that universe, I don't think you will start getting clones in MO

[SukaD]

Originally Posted by ccoa

I had that same idea and I also thought it would be near impossible to implement. But it would take more than one or two trips to form a path like that. Maybe a couple dozen, unless you purposley cleared the brush and wore cleats.

Ya, by a few I meant a number in the 50-100 range but if you brought buddies along it wouldn't take that long :P. It's kind of hard to imagine a feature like that being implemented but it's fun to dream right?

Edit:
I think instant travels could work as long as the traveler was not permitted to bring items with him/her. NPC Mages could open wormholes between locations? I'm not sure how it would be explained with the story but I do think if there is local banking and you are not allowed to port into towns controlled by a guild hostile towrads your declared allies that it wouldnt be abused too much. If was impossible to make the location mobile then I don't see why it wouldn't work.

[Rathius]

Roads sound like a good plan. I'd probably leave those to the higher end cities though. I'm thinking associated upkeep costs would be good, if not paid the road starts to get decay over time.

I can see a very small speed boost applied, but certainly nothing huge, and mainly for caravans.

Auto-travel... while it could work, I'm not so sure about it. I'd like for everyone to actually be there when I see them. Doesn't mean they have to talk... but it's nice to know there's really someone there.

[dannysatch]

Just a small note. If a road system similar to this were implemented what are peoples thoughts in regards to the speed buff during PvP? Should any speed boost gained from being on a road be made unavailable during combat?

[Shinzon]

No; if they fight on the road, the just run around faster... Just cancel auto travel upon attack...

[SkirmCard]

Originally Posted by dannysatch

Just a small note. If a road system similar to this were implemented what are peoples thoughts in regards to the speed buff during PvP? Should any speed boost gained from being on a road be made unavailable during combat?

I believe an easy way to fix this would be to make it so that you have to travel on the road for 10 or 15 seconds to get the speed boost. Also making any sort of offensive move would cancel the speed boost immediately.

[Slive]

The TS had some great points. WoW handled Travel VERY well in my opinion.

But i really do like the idea of a run buff on roads, as well as maybe a buff for running around town as well cause you are usually in to to just get stuff done anyways so a lil boost would be nice.

[Whisperkiller]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Harvest

Its not a bad idea apart from "evading barbarian hordes"
If there is a known road route, why is that safe from attacking and ambushing?
On contrary, if players are using known road path its perfect for ambushing. Evading attacks with "speed" seems a bit unreal.

This has nothing to do with what he actually meant. Do you know the reason the Romans were so great at empire building? Roads...do you know why? It had little to do with commerce....it had more to do with being able to get their armies to remote parts of the empire quickly. Roads give you a speed bonus as any Civilization game player knows. I agree with the OP on all points....very well thought out. I was going to add something but the OP has covered all his bases it seems. I would love to see this too.

[Whisperkiller]

Originally Posted by SkirmCard

I believe an easy way to fix this would be to make it so that you have to travel on the road for 10 or 15 seconds to get the speed boost. Also making any sort of offensive move would cancel the speed boost immediately.

Horizons had run speed boosts on roads....combat did not hinder any speed boosts. This system worked well and did not fascilitate autorun travel very well due to the winding nature of the roads...the buff is on a very specific part of the road...edge to edge. If you wonder off or the road breaks up you lose the buff....plain and simple. Too many people here are used to playing stndard cookie cutter MMO's it seems. A lot of the comments I see are ideas that come from WoWesque genres where sandbox gameplay is non-existant. I would like to see a GOOD reason why the buff needs to be dropped in combat. Anyone on the road with you gets the buff too...so your going at the same speed. You only get the boost while your on the road so if you want someone to slow down who is attacking you then...step...off....the....road.

[Lachrymose]

there's no need to make the buff only available if you're traveling on the road. the reason a road would logically make travel faster (other than providing a direct route to your destination) is that it's flat and smooth, so traveling should be much faster on a road than on dirt.

now, if you're fighting someone, you'll be able to move more quickly on a road than on grass, since the grass has too much give, while the road provides more support when you step. there's a reason runners run on roads/tracks instead of just running on dirt/grass. it's the same reason anyone should get a speed boost when they step on a road.

[SkirmCard]

Lachrymose, Whisperkiller:

Yea welll...I guess you guys are right :P

If you are on the road you are on the road, no matter what you are doing. So combat or not you move faster.

The only concern I have is when having to travel from one side of the world to the next (assuming no lame-ass WoW-ish blimps), I find it a chore to have to sit there and watch horse ears for 15 minutes. Especially because I could see people playing bandits (characters banned from the city for committing so many murders) doing NOTHING but standing by the majors roads getting their supplies (and kicks) off of the dead bodies of their afk victims.

I would hope for some sort of head-start to give my afk guy a little advantage.

That might seem a bit carebearish, but just an idea

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by SkirmCard

Lachrymose, Whisperkiller:

Yea welll...I guess you guys are right :P

If you are on the road you are on the road, no matter what you are doing. So combat or not you move faster.

The only concern I have is when having to travel from one side of the world to the next (assuming no lame-ass WoW-ish blimps), I find it a chore to have to sit there and watch horse ears for 15 minutes. Especially because I could see people playing bandits (characters banned from the city for committing so many murders) doing NOTHING but standing by the majors roads getting their supplies (and kicks) off of the dead bodies of their afk victims.

I would hope for some sort of head-start to give my afk guy a little advantage.

That might seem a bit carebearish, but just an idea

yea, that could happen. but it might not.

i don't really know what to say here. it's a pvp game, so expect some pvp, even when you aren't actively looking for it. i think this will be a good thing. it will give more purpose to mercenary clans, since crafters who need to transport a large stock of goods somewhere will probably want to hire mercenaries to help them reach their destination safely.

so, either get someone from your clan to tag along so you don't get ganked, or hire someone to. it doesn't sound like an entirely good idea to transport a cartload of valuable goods all by yourself.