"...So Make It Rare"

[Traceur]

disclaimer for people who tend to read the title and skip the OP: the topic is not rare items, MO allows people to study items and loot any item from anyone they can bit, thus their are no rare items. also, the topic is not about items which are rare for the sake of being rare - "a sword with a very unique texture" - it's regarding implementing otherwise unbalancing features as rares. now keep on reading.

it's the ultimate solution for everything. whenever someone suggests a completely unbalancing and potentially game breaking feature, then you'll have someone who'll say, "it would be alright if they'd make it rare".

(warning: explanation with a long list of examples, if you get the point please scroll down beyond the wall of text). why do we even care about balance? *whine* "the dev's nerfed my preferred playstyle!" *whine*? no. in fact we don't really care about the balance itself - we care about creating a rich & better gaming world with a large diversity of player-characters, and we care about providing that equivalent diversity in terms of gameplay styles & possibilities. something is defined as "unbalancing" when it nullifies other play styles, or when it forces everyone to use a particular playstyle the feature provides. so when we say unbalancing, what we really mean is "diversity killing".
for example, gunpowder itself isn't a bad thing - but implemented badly it would force everyone to use it. it would bring the game out of the medieval setting and ruin the medieval playstyles and character archetypes as a consequence. flying mounts aren't themselves unbalancing either - they would practically bring us to the age of air force military power and air transportation just with a mythical flavor. but it would force every guild, whether merchants, explorers, militant or full fledged player-civilization, to have a flying mount, or simply not stand much of a chance to compete with those who don't. pets that do the fighting or you while you control them in the background aren't a bad thing, they'd make this into more of a tactical RTS game, but given the potential to practically double one's firepower with an additional pet and stay unharmed yourself, they'd make everyone into an animal tamer or simply uncompetitive with PvP. and magic... i won't even go there, let's not forget what battlemages have done to PvP in UO - exactly what i am talking about. these sort of features are in essence potential diversity killers.
so how do we solve all those troubling issues with such gameplay features? "make them rare". i myself like many others here have used that answer plenty of times regarding features which i thought to be diversity killers. "make gunpowder into a rare resource rather then a chemical compound", "make flying mounts very limited in population", "limit the number of pets a player can have", "require very rare reagents for the stronger spells" (if you decided to skip the wall of text, this is when you start to read).

but let's take a step back for a moment. is this a good solution? is it a good idea to add rare items of unbalanced nature into the gameworld?
do we want a gameworld ruled by the 9 dragon riders, the 20 people gunmen guild with the one secret gunpowder mine nobody knows where it is, the 3 mighty earthquake and meteor storm calling sorcerers?

the good - arguments for rares:
from a lore standing point of view, yes we do. this is exactly what fantasy worlds tend to include in classical fantasy literature, and while classical themepark games can never include it, a sandbox game where there's no "leveling to be able to get it" is just the sort of place where this is possible to implement. once we accept "rares", the possibilities are endless - affectively nothing becomes "too outbalancing" if you implement it right as a rare. you could potentially add anything in the game. the question is, do we want the kind of world this would create?

the bad - arguments against rares:
on a first look, these rares actually add a diversity of playstyles by allowing players to specialize in these features. but i say 'ruled by", because that's exactly what is likely to happen. these rare "unbalanced power tools" create a few which would have a large advantage over the rest, and will likely either be taken by the ruling factions to become even more powerful or be used by people to become the ruling factions. they create "power hubs" by which alliances will form. they will affectively determine the political makeup of the world, and over time as those alliances fight each other some of them will win, having more then one of those rares and then further unbalancing them against the others with less rares. this will lessen the diversity of player factions, creating a few very powerful empires but not much in between but for the vassal guilds. they may have political intrigue within them, but decreasingly less and less conflict outside of them, less warfare, each player having less impact and less individual opportunities. is this the sort of gameworld we want? do you want the political makeup of the server on the tip of "who gets the dragon" competition being more important then any other strategic way to gain an advantage?

the ugly - a sandbox isn't fair anyway, it's not supposed to be:
in fact, a sandbox game is never fair and equal. while it's always hypothetically possible to become anything you want and get into any role, it becomes harder as time passes by - wealth is limited in a player economy, either directly "zero sum economy" or by money sinks matching output. opportunities to become rich are less frequent and less easy as "newly discovered items" become common place or as local monopolies of resources become dominant. politics is also not fair, as what may have being once an open frontier when the game started is now a staggering composition of alliances of near equal power (having consumed smaller ones). as a result, even skill progression isn't of equal opportunities, because in order to be able to practice that "special katana wielding skill" for example you might be forced to join the few guild who has the unique metal to craft it. there's always a possibility to do it, you could hypothetically throw the most powerful guild out of balance and become a new leader. but it's not likely. given that sandbox games are not supposed to be fair, what's wrong with adding a layer of such "rares"? people would still be able to compete and try to get them, even though its less likely they will succeed.

i don't have the answer. i see both sides, and no clear solution. so go on, debate, and maybe we can combine our thoughts and come up with something.

[Fortinbras]

Originally Posted by Traceur

do we want a gameworld ruled by the 9 dragon riders, the 20 people gunmen guild with the one secret gunpowder mine nobody knows where it is, the 3 mighty earthquake and meteor storm calling sorcerers?

Well, no. And if specialising in dragon riding, gunnery or large-scale sorcery does let you rule the world, then that's poor game design.

Hard limits are a bad idea in this situation, I think. It's just important to ensure that capabilities like the ones in your example require highly specialised characters, and that they are only a few options in a wide array of appealing character builds. If dragon mounts exist then anyone who really wants one should be able to get one, but it should probably preclude them being good at a whole lot of other things.

The gunpowder thing, for instance. I see no reason why primitive firearms can't exist alongside more medieval weapons in a fantasy setting. Certainly those pesky wood elves with bows still pose a threat to my musket-toting Empire army in a game of Warhammer. I wouldn't want to see guns act like bows with a different skin like they do in WoW, rather they should exist alongside and each have their particular advantages: an archer can loose an arrow without giving away his position and shoot twice more while the gunner is reloading, while the firearms expert can plant bombs and throw grenades in addition to having a slow but powerful single-target attack.

The same principle applies to the world-shaking magician: if he can raise an earthquake to tumble castle walls then it's only fair that he be vulnerable to the axe-wielding warrior right in front of him. Or the beastmaster with a flying mount - perhaps she can evade most enemies and might be the best messenger or scout in the guild, but she can't transport the same quantity of trade goods as a ground-borne trade caravan and isn't necessarily any more use in a fight than a knight on a horse or just some guy with a spear.

So basically I'm saying characters with exceptional or unusual abilities should be rare because they require a significant investment and not everybody wants that kind of character, not because the rules of the game say there can be only one. This method is, of course, far harder to balance, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't see any of these examples.

[Kaoy]

I'm torn. I can easily fantasize about having a large library in my guilds castle, stocked with rare Tomes containing powerful magics and the means to create amazing weapons and armours. Imagine, wars and unions breaking out and coming together respectivly just to get their hand on the knowledge they contain? I could see this being both a great economical boost, by more wars breaking out, meaning better sales for alchamists and blacksmiths. I can also see the possiblity of this just causing greed conflicts... One guild finnaly takes us down and gets the books. Soon everyone that helped them starts turning on them becuse they feel they aren't sharing enough of the knowledge. This could become an endless cycle of never ending war. I suppose that could appeal to some, so I guess Traceur's question is a good one: Do we want a world like that?

Seeing as we all come to understand this is to be a brutal open PvP game where you are never really safe, I would say a fair share of us could find glory in this. There will of course be the carebears, but I suppose that is thier choice to not compete for the knowledge. Eventually, the books might trade hands enough that quite a few people have had the oppurtunity to squirl away copies, making the warfare obsolete, and boiling down on its own.

I think I could get to like this side of the game. It would be like Piracy in EVE. The understood darkside that is part of the game. The question is if you want to play that.

[kurrency420]

Im a little torn between the two I guess.
I hate games with uniques that everyone can get, cause then that will make you just like the person next to you except your skills.
Then again, I don't want that one guild who discovered the black powder mine to own it all. But then again, would it be that hard to overthrow a gun shooting guild??
I believe making the items truly unique will make us players use a strategy or attempt it many times. Even some unlikely alliances will come into play until they are took down.
I believe having these 1 of a kind items is whats going to make the pvp of Mortal online. The real time instances/dungeons will be cool, and being the first to have the item even cooler, but when the fog clears do you trust your right hand man to help you or turn on you. If we didn't have these items, would their be Guild wars??? Would anyone have a reason to try to kill the leader and sorcerer of a guild? The only reasons would be even more far and few between.
As for the black powder subject, their def shouldn't be a mine, coal should be very abundant, but the other items to make gun powder should be random rare drops. This way no guild or person has an infinite supply of gunpowder and makes it expensive to use on an everyday basis. If players are selling it to each other, the price will depend on the rarity and usefulness of the item, which gunpowder being maby the highest on usefulness. Then also, pouches of gunpowder should be crafted also, but when i say It should be rare, im talking maby 3-5 percent chance of dropping off regular npc's, and the rest you get of course from the boot of the person you killed if they had it all on them. And then if someone does accumalte a vast amount, it will be used fairly quickly. Needless to say guns wouldn't affect a sorcerer (unless from the back), anyone wearing heavy armour will full helm on. Then for everyone else, they can be healed of a gun would if around the right people.

I definetly see your point, but I believe the devs can control it to a point. unique items should be masterful, and should be very different, but not completely overpowered. Maby the unique item comes with extra moves, but the moves have a big cooldown, im not sure.
I just believe 1 person witha unique item fighting 1-2 others with non unique items should win, but not demolished. The strategy to use Unique items should be masterful.
Maby they add a leveling tier to unique weapons, meaning they are good when you first get them, but the more you use them they get better, have like 4 tiers for a weapon, the last tier being attack or whatever say 2k-3k times to finish final tier. This would make the weapon a little less powerful and have to stay in one persons hands for a long time to get to its full power, and if it switches hands, the new person having to go through all tiers again while the player who had it still knows the full power of it if he were ever to get it back.

Thoughts??
The only way we will ever perfect a game with uniques is to make it and test it with beta, find out what will need to be fixxed or whatever!

[Lyllyth]

Speaking on items...
What if the "Rare" items weren't "I win" items.
Maybe a sword crafted from a rare metal that just improves longevity of the weapon. Or if the most powerful Longsword in the game were simply a Longsword+4, but made extremely hard to craft (due to rituals/location/components), so they would be rare.

Some swords may be mundane, lack magical properties, but be of exceptional make to maintain sharpness and durability, though the crafting process may be more detailed and take longer (less likely to be mass produced).

As I've stated in other threads, it all depends on where the "norm" is set. If the norm is set to a finely crafted item, then the exceptionally crafted item becomes the "Uncommon" and the exceptionally crafted, slightly magical item becomes "Rare".

By "slightly magical" I mean that the item may give off a glow upon use, acting as a light source (handy, not game breaking), or be enchanted with a "Keen Edge" enchantment, maintaining it's edge and doing slightly more damage. The sword may have a "Feather" enchantment, making the item nearly weightless.

A "Flaming Longsword" (crafted in the flames of a dragon's breath) may also have a slight drawback. The item may require the character to focus energy to trigger the flames, draining Energy so the wielder becomes tired more quickly when using the weapon's enchantment. Successful flame use could be based on the wielder's sword skill, emulating the wielder's knowledge of the blade. But if the flame use is successful, the swing will drain 2x the amount of Energy. Now, the flame wouldn't be game breaking, say on a 2-8 damage Longsword, the flames would do an extra 1-2, 1-3, or 1-4 damage.

"Rare" doesn't have to mean "God Mode".

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

"Rare" doesn't have to mean "God Mode".

Well there's two sides to that coin.

If a rare item gives too minor of an advantage over an average item then it wouldn't really be worth getting. Let's say you'd have to spend 10x more materials and time to craft a rare sword that would give you a only a fraction of an advantage over a normal sword. Most people wouldn't bother, especially if items are destructible.


Personally I think that having a few rare "heroes" or powerful weapons per server wouldn't hurt anyone. It would give players something to strive for. Furthermore I find it fun to try and take down people who are clearly more powerful than me.

Lets say I see a Dragon rider camping somewhere. I get a couple of my friends and go to take him out. It's almost like a raid but against a real player. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.


Also, when some guild or alliance gains too many heroes or rare weapons than it's up to the rest of the server to rally up against them. Again, more exciting PvP.


One important thing is that all the rare items should be limited. So lets say a guy manages to obtain a powerful sword. The only way for someone else to get that sword should be by killing the guy who got it in the first place. Otherwise sooner or later most hardcore players would be running around with the same sword, thus making it not rare, but a necessity.

[lokius]

Most intresting topic.

My point of view:

I agree rare items don't need to give that much of a handicap. Well I think even minor magic items should be quite rare, most cRPGs make magic items cheap upgrades from normal gear. I would like too see magic items as something much more expensive and rare while only slightly better than normal ones. An exelent swordsman ( considering both player and char skills ) should be very deadly even with rusty old sword, while an inexpirenced novice won't win even with best magic gear out there. Mighty artifacts can have drawbacks but I think its not the only way to solve it.

As for flying mounts, getting such could mean devoting your character to it. Becoming a tamer/beastmaster, rising lots of your skills to ride such a mount being able to use it in a battle, and eventualy loosing your mount in such a battle. What I mean is taking a whole diffrent path not only just to ride a flying a mount but utilize it as your main weapon istead of becoming a powerfull mage or a mighty warrior, also flying mounts would be one of the many bests such player could ride and not most common ones. Flying such a mount could not only be hard for your character but also for a player to some extent.

Gunpowder and guns ain't a must for me in a fantasy based RPG, though I don't have much against them. Well I have much against a rare "gunpowder" mine, wtf can you mine gunpowder? I thought its a chemical mixture where ingredients aren't that rare. Rare is rather knowladge how to mix descent gunpowder. But even so early firearms had lots of flaws, such as time amount required to reload, weight and inaccuracy. The ones that get their hands on best gunpowder and most advanced guns may get a bit of upper hand, but its only about how far players could take improving firearms. It should should be kind of same like with magic items.

Making something rare doesn't have to mean making it overpowered, I would like to see much rare or rather unique items, mounts etc. as items that make players stand out, let players have something no one other or only a handful have. Those rares can be strong but don't need to always, but shoudn't destroy fun for other players and this wonderful idea about player skill being most important. I would rather see huge alliances rulling MO world than single individuals with rares.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Well there's two sides to that coin.

If a rare item gives too minor of an advantage over an average item then it wouldn't really be worth getting. Let's say you'd have to spend 10x more materials and time to craft a rare sword that would give you a only a fraction of an advantage over a normal sword. Most people wouldn't bother, especially if items are destructible.


Personally I think that having a few rare "heroes" or powerful weapons per server wouldn't hurt anyone. It would give players something to strive for. Furthermore I find it fun to try and take down people who are clearly more powerful than me.

Lets say I see a Dragon rider camping somewhere. I get a couple of my friends and go to take him out. It's almost like a raid but against a real player. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.


Also, when some guild or alliance gains too many heroes or rare weapons than it's up to the rest of the server to rally up against them. Again, more exciting PvP.


One important thing is that all the rare items should be limited. So lets say a guy manages to obtain a powerful sword. The only way for someone else to get that sword should be by killing the guy who got it in the first place. Otherwise sooner or later most hardcore players would be running around with the same sword, thus making it not rare, but a necessity.

i agree. having only a few "super" weapons wouldn't be such an awful idea, and could even encourage pvp. since there would only be a few of these weapons, you wouldn't have to worry about getting ganked all the time b/c your outgeared, since such a small portion of the population would have these kinds of items. also, as soon as someone started going around ganking, people would find out who has the items and they'd gang up on them (keep in mind, these items wouldn't make you invincible).

in fact, they could implement some way of tracking the people with these items, maybe like some magic temples or something that would give away the general location of the items (not the exact coordinates), something not TOO easy, but still posing some danger to players who hold the items.

one problem is that someone could get one of these items, and log off and stop playing, which would effectively remove the item from the game. now, you could make some lore up like "the items must be fed souls, else they'll return from whence they came." so you'd have to kill x number of people per day or week, so if you go on vacation, plan on giving it to a friend. also, once the item is equipped, it shouldn't be able to be unequipped except upon death, so you wouldn't be able to easily put it on, gank a little bit, then take it back off to avoid losing it.

it'd be fun to try to collect all the items yourself, or to get a group together so everyone in the group had one, but this would be extremely difficult and once you were noticed, there would be plenty of people who would be happy to take the items off your hands. so basically, no one person/clan would hold these items for very long, and everyone would have a chance to get the items.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

in fact, they could implement some way of tracking the people with these items

This is similar to the system Lineage 2 has with the Cursed Swords. If a player in control of either of the swords logs into the game a marker will appear on the map and everyone can go after them.

More can be read here:
http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/cursed_swords.html

[lokius]

@Lachrymose sticking items to someones hand is a big no-no for me, lets say I got my hands on a very powerfull sword I equip it to check how well i can fight with and I realize that I still prefer swinging my good old axe, but wait now im stuck with that sword everyone will want to kill me for and I can't even defend myself with my weapon of choice.

On the other hand if such powerfull items would exist, where having one makes a huge diffrence maybe I should just stack them in a safe place until I get a full "godly" set.

If a sword makes you a hero then you are a poor one. Items should help but never do the job for you.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by lokius

@Lachrymose sticking items to someones hand is a big no-no for me, lets say I got my hands on a very powerfull sword I equip it to check how well i can fight with and I realize that I still prefer swinging my good old axe, but wait now im stuck with that sword everyone will want to kill me for and I can't even defend myself with my weapon of choice.

On the other hand if such powerfull items would exist, where having one makes a huge diffrence maybe I should just stack them in a safe place until I get a full "godly" set.

If a sword makes you a hero then you are a poor one. Items should help but never do the job for you.

haha, good point. although, if the weapon did what it was supposed to do, i don't think you'd want an ordinary weapon more.

about stacking up your gear, that's another reason i figured they should "stick" to you, or you would have to use them (kill others with them) in order to keep them. those were just a couple ideas.

i do agree that the gear shouldn't make the player. but i think it could make for some interesting pvp aspects. and since the items would be so rare, you wouldn't really have to worry about running into people that completely outgear you, there'd be max like half a dozen people max with one of these items (or one person with all of them).

keep in mind, when i say these items are rare, i mean there would only be one of each item in the world, maybe enough to make a full set of gear, but each item would be completely unique. so, "saving up" to get a full set wouldn't be as easy as you make it sound, it would take a lot of time and effort, and probably would be near impossible to actually do without getting owned, since plenty of other people would be after the same thing.

i'm not sure myself if i even like this idea, but i think it's interesting to at least keep in mind. there's still problems with it, such as if one large clan gets all the items, they could just horde them amonst themselves and if they ever go out with them, make sure they're accompanied by a large group, etc.

[Traceur]

people, remember please that the thread isn't about rare item literally - MO allows full loot and allows crafters to study and copy them - "rare items" are only such if a player or a guild is able to hold on to a secret item and make them so.

it's about overpowered advantages which otherwise could not be fully implemented in the game without causing extreme unbalance, so people answer "make them rare", and whether we really should include such rare sources of extreme advantages and what would be the consequences of them on game world.

[LightsabeR]

Just replace "rare item" with "rare flying mount" or "rare magic skill" and the argument remains the same. I feel that as long as the amount of those rare and powerful [insert something here] is limited per server then it will only add variety to the game, most importantly to PvP. If on the other hand you make rare items/mounts/skills just hard to get then eventually (maybe in a year or two) many people will have them, thus making world PvP revolve around which guild has more of those rarities.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Traceur

people, remember please that the thread isn't about rare item literally - MO allows full loot and allows crafters to study and copy them - "rare items" are only such if a player or a guild is able to hold on to a secret item and make them so.

it's about overpowered advantages which otherwise could not be fully implemented in the game without causing extreme unbalance, so people answer "make them rare", and whether we really should include such rare sources of extreme advantages and what would be the consequences of them on game world.

Even just with how you stated this, it sounds like it could create a gear driven game. If the rares give a distinct advantage, and they can be copied... What's to stop the game (after it's aged a bit) from being discriminatory if a player doesn't have certain rare items.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Traceur

people, remember please that the thread isn't about rare item literally - MO allows full loot and allows crafters to study and copy them - "rare items" are only such if a player or a guild is able to hold on to a secret item and make them so.

it's about overpowered advantages which otherwise could not be fully implemented in the game without causing extreme unbalance, so people answer "make them rare", and whether we really should include such rare sources of extreme advantages and what would be the consequences of them on game world.

i had a friend who was way into mmo's and he would always talk about how he wished he would have some uber spell no one else had so when they saw him they'd be like "omg he's so powerful!" i always reminded him, sure this would be cool if you were the only one who had it. but if this power was limited to one person, the chances he'd actually get it would be extraordinarily slim. that's why i though the rares i mentioned above would be a good compromise, since ANYONE can potentially obtain the items. and what i meant by rare there was that they are completely unique, only one of each in the world.

as far as the wow-style "rares" are concerned, the reason most people want these rare items is because in their minds they are imagining themselves as the ones having them. that means, they'll farm their lives away until they finally get this "rare" drop. once enough people start doing that, the item isn't really "rare" anymore, it will just be somewhat uncommon, but overpowered all the same. then the people that would rather spend their time playing the game then spending hours on end farming for the said rares will be at a disadvantage.

EDIT: ok, i had just skimmed through your original post before, but i read it more carefully and now i see what you mean. i don't like the idea of "rares" as you mentioned, for the very reasons you mentioned that would make this a bad idea. i really don't think there should be any items that are so "uber" that they need to be considered rare just to make it seem more fair. if anything, that makes it less fair. if there was an "uber" item that EVERYONE had, well, it wouldn't be uber anymore so it would even things out. i'm all for equal opportunity, so as long as everyone has relatively equal access to something, i say go right ahead. the problem lies in the fact that a clan could potentially attain power via these rares, and the more power they would gain, the easier it would be for them to keep this power and get more, creating a huge gap between a few successful clans and the rest of the world.

basically, i just think the bad would outweigh the possible good that you mentioned could come from such rares.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

EDIT: ok, i had just skimmed through your original post before, but i read it more carefully and now i see what you mean. i don't like the idea of "rares" as you mentioned, for the very reasons you mentioned that would make this a bad idea. i really don't think there should be any items that are so "uber" that they need to be considered rare just to make it seem more fair. if anything, that makes it less fair. if there was an "uber" item that EVERYONE had, well, it wouldn't be uber anymore so it would even things out. i'm all for equal opportunity, so as long as everyone has relatively equal access to something, i say go right ahead. the problem lies in the fact that a clan could potentially attain power via these rares, and the more power they would gain, the easier it would be for them to keep this power and get more, creating a huge gap between a few successful clans and the rest of the world.

basically, i just think the bad would outweigh the possible good that you mentioned could come from such rares.

yes, that's what i mean.

but on the other side you can't ignore the freedom it gives the dev's: you can include anything no matter how unbalancing as long as it's matched with rarity. with "balance" out of the equation, the only limit is code-ability and imagination.

also, rarity doesn't have to do with resource-scatter (whether it's gunpowder, a unique kind of ore or dragon eggs). you could for example have specific deities with a "chosen one" who'd get a unique ability and people would compete for it, or you could have a PD implantation like star-wars Jedi...

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Traceur

yes, that's what i mean.

but on the other side you can't ignore the freedom it gives the dev's: you can include anything no matter how unbalancing as long as it's matched with rarity. with "balance" out of the equation, the only limit is code-ability and imagination.

also, rarity doesn't have to do with resource-scatter (whether it's gunpowder, a unique kind of ore or dragon eggs). you could for example have specific deities with a "chosen one" who'd get a unique ability and people would compete for it, or you could have a PD implantation like star-wars Jedi...

yea, i think it'd be cool if there were some totally unique items that people could fight over, like i mentioned above. again, as long as everyone potentially has the same opportunity to get these items, i don't think it would be such a bad thing since there would obviously be a downside to having such a powerful weapon (everyone wants to kill you for it). or like you were saying, if you could have a deity's favor or something, so long as anyone else could potentially get it, i think it'd be something creative to add to the game and would probably even spur some interesting pvp.

[Veith]

I want a Multiplayergame with multiplayergameplay, rare items with 'better' stats only means egomanic desires will be satisfied. Thats soloplayer (ok also PvE) thought and for those games sometimes needed.
I want a MMOgame with no preferred soloplayercontent, if someone wants to play alone, (s)he shall play also alone in MO, but not with special designed gameplay. MO should be a pure MMOG, if you are possible to reach a goal alone, then ok, but not programmed feed for only a kind of gameplaymasturbation and thats then called possibility for the individual.
Make that in soloplayergames but i cannot see any good aspect for a real MMOG if those gameplay would be supported.
Rare items ok, but not with different stats. So a rare item someone gained or perhaps also crafted should have a different appearance so other players could see 'oh that one gained that rare sword' but not because he will then have a better chance to fight in PvP. So clear for PvE gaming all stats of different players are nearly unimportant, until they can beat the mob, if a player has stats 10 times better than another its ok if both are playing together, but in a game wants to be a designed PvP game you can only handle different stats, if you seperate players from an entire Multiplayergameworld to some seperated zones for different char-qualities. I feel bad only if i think about such gameplay.
I will never demand that egomaniacs should be preferred in a multiplayergame. Rare items with different stats for combat-success are 100% egosism-support, anti-MMOG creation.
If only one interested folk here wants a MMOG he should never demand rare items with different stats. Let the player be the reason for results and not the total amount of additional statistics.

[Unomat]

Interesting thread so far!

I'd like to divide potential game-breaking features into 3 categories:
1) Rare/Unique artifacts
2) Rare resources
3) Rare traits

Rare/Unique artifacts
These items are a must in any fantasy MMO for a very simple reason: it turns the setting from the mundane medieval into the epic realm, where the forces of Good and Evil try and influence the way the world turns by barging into the lowly farm hand's life and setting him out on a quest to become the saviour of the world.

Coincidentily, it's also a very nice way for the devs to nullify the advantage any 'empire' has gained through either rare resources or rare traits, or the gain of a Rare/Unique item themselves ^^

The way to gain hold of such an item should be as diverse as possible in order to add to the lore:
- Deity granted artifacts for sufficient worship are essentially attainable by anyone, so they could be introduced as a 'quick fix'
- Artifacts attained after long quests could be 'pushed' through external forces (Deities but also mundane 'good' or 'evil' NPCs) or 'pulled' by the players themselves (scholars researching old scriptures to find a counter against another artifact).

Imho, unique artifacts should eventually be destroyed, either by meeting a related artifact with an opposite 'charge' or by an extensive ritual (researched by the same scholars again ) as the artifact would 'corrupt' the wielder, in a sense it would change their skills to match the artifact's purposes instead of allowing to use it as the player sees fit (maybe even beyond the realm of the 'normally' attainable skill?).

In summary:
a. Artifacts add to the lore of the game and as such are a requirement
b. Artifacts provide hooks for player involvement on a grande scale
c. Artifacts should be removed from game as soon as they've served their purpose

Rare resources/Rare traits
In my opinion these are two sides of the same coin, as man is a tool-wielding species; please bear with me while I try to explain.

As Fortinbras touched on the subject, I'd say any player should have the ability to specialize in a specific trait at great cost, because it takes time to specialize. You want to become a dragon rider? Fine, learn how to befriend a dragon up to the point he'll let you ride him. No guarantees you'll ever be able to though, as what do you have to offer him in return?

Suppose you're finally able to ride him, now what are the two of you going to do? Teach others how to become dragon riders? Rather not, but your IRL friends might want to join in the fun. Bummer, 90% of them don't qualify so now you appear to have chosen a lone profession.

Then again, you and your friends could go and pillage towns. Reality-check: are you sure dragons are Ballista proof? Let's say they are, they know magic and have a host of ways to protect themselves. Are you sure they are completely invulnerable?

Here comes the scholar again:
"In all books about dragons, I've never come across a dragon that lives near the sea, although there are plenty accounts of dragons flying around in thunderstorms. Never has there been a town near the sea attacked by dragons..."
I'd say it's about time to built a salt-water attack weapon, preferably portable, and either use it to your defense or start a hunting party and smoke that dragon out.

In order to make that weapon portable, you'll need materials that don't wear when brought into contact with salt water and those materials will be rare at first (whoever needed to defend themselves against dragons before? They only attacked ever so often, prefering their solitude!) but as the market for dragon defense grows, the materials will be mined more often. Eventually, there will be a balance between dragon riders and salt-water weapon wielders again, pitting traits against materials & wit.

That's just one example of the history of man imho: when we run into a phenomenon, we devise a way around it using our wit to craft tools from materials that are rare to start with. The advances in weaponcraft brought about the advances in armorcraft up to the point where we had knights in full (plate) armor to turn most hits with weapons into mere bruises (bar a proper spear at the joints, but what lunatic would dare to get close to a virtual tortoise with a very sharp object in his hands riding a horse?), then muskets entered the battlefield and turned knights obsolete within a few decades.

Magic is the equivalent of technical advances in most (high-magic) fantasy settings. If we curtail the impact rare traits and rare resources can have on the advance of the martial arts, we will be forced to curtail the effect of magic as well I'm afraid.

What I would like to happen is that traits, resources and magic can all be researched (there's the scholar again!) and that research should be an indication for the devs what new augmentation of the combat palette players would be interested in. If any guild / group of players gets a temporary advantage through their research, so be it. When that advantage starts to become game-breaking, 'Divine inspiration' could be a means to steer research into directions that are balancing to the overall gam; after all, most inventions have been made by accident, while researchers were looking for other effects

In summary:
a. Rare traits should only be achievable at the cost of specialization.
b. Rare traits can always be countered by wits and judicial use of rare resources, and vice versa.
c. Research driven advancement of traits, resources and magic provides an indication to the devs what direction the players want the game to develop into as well as a means to balance rarities.