Visual Feedback Instead of Text, Healthbars and What-not.

[Irocz]

Health bar's are completely unnecessary and ruin immersiveness. The screen should blur or change colour slightly when your character is damaged and\or there should be adaquate graphical representaion on your character of injuries or wounds (blood, character limping etc).

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by 1reaver1

Also though, i would like the option of a hot button for "adrenaline rush". (example - I am getting low but really need to even the score, or just jump ahead. I hit "Adrenaline rush" which majorly boosts my attack and stats regardless of class or style. I can hit for WAY more damage for a second but i am left vulnerable to major damage if hit.)

Kind of the equivilent of panicing because i am about to die and putting eveything i have into an assault.

I do like the idea, it is just something they would need to be very careful about balancing. Maybe it would also have some sort of long cooldown, or randomness attached so that it doesnt happen every single time you're about to die. I'm not sure how to work it, it just seems like it would get old, or become a crutch for people, a 'tactic' if you will, in order to win a fight.

[Hypnos]

Hum I think HealthBar is the best solution, because it's a game and you can't really feel you health, you can't give adrenaline boost to your character.

Making a new system in this case can disapoint too many player, and an MMO without many player isn't fun to play.

[Victor]

Ever since I quit playing UO after the implementation of Trammel and Fellucia, I’ve been stalking MMO developers on various forums, preaching for a more immersive MMO in a 3d environment. Needless to say, UO2, LOTRO and AOC developers have all left a bitter taste in my mouth. After AoC’s crash and burn, I promised myself not to head over to the next MMO developed and preach for what this gamer’s desire and believe would be wanted/liked by many more gamers out there than you and me can possibly imagine. Alas, I failed; here I am, posting a lengthy post yet again. Forgive me in advance!

I understand that you developers create games, and yes, games don’t have to be simulating everything according to real physics and laws of our natural world, I am not preaching for that. However, I am suggesting simple solutions to enhance the immersion thus enhancing the RPG in the abbreviation MMORPG. You are, as in collectively all MMO devs, “in theory at least” creating RPGS, today’s MMORPGs, focus on the wrong things however, experience, levels and gears. In other words, creating the wrong addiction. That’s not what makes it an RPG. You are supposed to capture your players in the world, allow them to play a role. This is not delivered in today’s 20-30 million dollars MMOs. In other words, they are crap, in my humble opinion.

So during the years (7 years and counting) that has passed since I quit playing UO, I have played many MMO betas, none appealed to me, they seemed like a waste of time, the game-play then. However, the community and the people I talked to, made me want to at least try it out.

Nonetheless, I understand that the developers of the genre are tempted by WoW success and generally the evil thing we call “money”. They want a successful game, they want a player base that continue to play/pay each month. They create a need, and offer a solution, to trap these poor MMO gamers souls in a repetitive wheel. Thus we have had copy-cats ever since EQ made it's debute, with levels and what-not, and not much innovation has been made to the genre ever since. It's time to evolve!!!

So what am I preaching? Well, let us get started with that.

No Healthbars
Instead of having healthbars, make our characters feel the impact of battle, meaning, make them limp, bleed, scream, fall down on their knees, gasping after air. Make it visual, allow your group to see your status and act accordingly.

You all been playing Gears of War, or Call of Duty with the bleeding mod, I hope. What if such game-play made its way into the oh so dull and repetitive MMO genre? If me and my pal saw our buddy, knelt down cover his side, blood dripping down. We could as a group, move in to save him, some guys taking the mobs/players, while one apply bandages to him, or invoke some divinity to “magically” heal him with a ritual.

Wouldn’t that be something?

No Insta-deaths – Fatalities instead
After playing Gears of War and Call of Duty (Bleed mod), I find the notion of being dead at 0% health unwanted. 0% should mean defeated, not dead. If your opponent then wants to kill you then so be it, make it pretty and with lots of blood & gore. Mages engulf entire bodies with flames and what-not, warriors stomp them ala Gears of War, or deliver that final blow ala Assassin’s Creed, The Witcher.

This would also enhance group play in dungeons, mobs wouldn’t kill your group right away, they would incapacitate one after the other, when none is left standing, they walk around making sure you guys are all dead. It would also allow your group to survive, or a chance to recuperate, if one guy is still standing after the smoke of battle has faded. He would be allowed to use basic abilities like applying bandages to recover his mates from this incapacitated state. Naturally, bandages makes your character regain your strength slowly, a magic user/healer, would speed up this process, as mention above, invoking some divinity thus accelerating the process. This would also remove the silly notion of in-combat-healing. And healers would still be a welcome addition in any group. Their task a bit more realistic in this approach, and they would take an active part in the battles, not sit back and chew on some peanuts and press “In Vas Mani” constantly.

No “Your skill is too low to climb/wield that weapon/”
It always piss me off that I can not at least try to wield/climb/what-not in these games. A game called Severance: Blade of Darkness solved this elegantly. Simply by allowing a barbarian wield a mace even though he was not skilled in it, when he swung it he swung it clumsy, naturally, he would have zero chance in combat wielding this weapon he was not skilled in. So please, make us see it, don’t tell, show us. (I am a writer, and there is a thing we say while writing novels “Don’t tell, show”) That’s what I am asking. Same could be done with climbing, riding, if you are not skilled enough climbing a ladder/wall, make the player stumble and fall down after two steps, make it known for the player, he can’t scale that wall. Naturally, when a player tries riding a horse, he would fall down right away.

No Über gears
Why continue this childish tirade concerning über gears? Sure some things are suppose to cause more damage than other things, but please make it balanced, meaning a skilled player should still be able to kill a lesser skilled player with his rusty old dagger, even though the lesser skilled is wearing top quality stuff. The whole notion of über gear, is just, plain dumb and silly. It’s to create a poison for the players, an addiction, they must acquire that sword that grants them 10% extra damage and what-not. The item should not grant them über extra damage, his player/character skills should grant that, not the item.

Do Not Display Numbers
Why do developers put the wrong terminology in their player-base’s vocabulary? Why even display game-mechanics such as 120 points of damage “Sword of Power”. We, as the players, do not need to know every game mechanic down to the smallest detail, if we want that, we can go to a website and calculate the exact difference between swords and what-not. This however should not be displayed in the imagination you deliver to the player. Once you log on, terminology to the setting should be used and emphasized, to create a more believable setting, and also allow players to use this terminology instead of the l33t words. UO made this correct, once again. You used your anatomy to see other player’s stats, "Strong as an Ox" etc. The sword is extremely sharp, and what-not. I know you guys are oldschool UO gamers like me, but please, don’t follow EQ’s and other mindless MMOs degenerate paths.

Full Loot
To have a thriving server/game economy, with crafters, resource gathering people and what-not, this is essential. That you at least once a week (or more depending on your player skill), need to requip ala UO style because you died. Keep the money rolling, equipment exchanging hands.

Final words to summarize this, some say “none would like this”, I would simply state, why not? Don’t you realize that there is a larger crowd out there than the MMOers, playing FPS, Action/RPG, simply because today's MMOs don't offer any immersion to them, no excitement. It's rather a hand-holding theme park experience, shuving every numerical game aspect in their face, 100 EXP, 130 in damage, critical injury x2. Who the heck cares? All I want is to kill that other dude, I don't need the friggin healthbar, numbers shuved in my face while doing it!!!

And lastly, a game with the things mentioned above, would still be addictive, not because of gaining experience/levels and gears. But because it immerse you in the setting, it’s addictive to patch up your buddy after a battle, it’s addictive to stomp on that defeated opponent and laugh bending over his torn up body, it’s addictive to show off your skills with a rusty dagger vs a fully pimped out player with quality stuff, it’s addictive to be able to wield what-ever and see your character fumble with that polearm because he is not trained in heavy weaponry, or fall down from a horse for the 10th time, fumble your way up a ladder and what-not. And it's also addictive to run for the 100th time to the blacksmith to requip your character, because you were in a full-scale pvp war outside one of the dungeons.

Thanks for hearing me out! Hope I didn’t bore you too much!

Now back to stealth mode.

[Sorjak]

I agree with you on most of your points, and from the the threads already existing on the forums, i know many other members do as well. These topics are near and dear to our hearts, and I at least would like things to be as realistic as possible, just as you describe.

However, I don't agree on your take on healthbars, mostly because we've already been told that MO is a first person game. Regardless of the loss of immersion, some sort of indication of your bodily status on the HUD is absolutely necessary. Limping, bleeding, screaming... these are all great things, but you can't really see yourself bleed, you can barely notice yourself limp in FP. There needs to be some sort of indicator of where you feel pain, and how much. I do want to stray away from actual healthbars, though. Make it something more innovative, maybe a mannequin that shows pain in different spots or the like.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Sorjak

I agree with you on most of your points, and from the the threads already existing on the forums, i know many other members do as well. These topics are near and dear to our hearts, and I at least would like things to be as realistic as possible, just as you describe.

However, I don't agree on your take on healthbars, mostly because we've already been told that MO is a first person game. Regardless of the loss of immersion, some sort of indication of your bodily status on the HUD is absolutely necessary. Limping, bleeding, screaming... these are all great things, but you can't really see yourself bleed, you can barely notice yourself limp in FP. There needs to be some sort of indicator of where you feel pain, and how much. I do want to stray away from actual healthbars, though. Make it something more innovative, maybe a mannequin that shows pain in different spots or the like.

Make it like Gears of War, blood splattern across the screen, screen fading.

Then if you press "H", as in "Alone in the Dark", you can toggle between your wounds, and visually see them, and apply some bandages on them.

However, for a healer, this little mini-game could be quite fun, to patch up a fellow player.

But no healthbars above monsters, other players. Make them bleed, scream, fall down if they reach 0% health, then stomp them or finish them off as in games like The Witcher, Severance: Blade of Darkness, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War.

[Eknav]

Yes, these thoughts are all over the forums; I've posted in at least a thread per point in your post here.

However, that is fine, I always love to see someone sharing very similar if not identical viewpoints as me here. A pleasure meeting you, Victor.

Anyway, I agree with everything you've said. I mean that, strangely enough. Let's have no health bars, let's see no numbers; let's have full loot; let's no have insta-kills but fatalities; leave decisions to the player of that character.

Eloquently written and glad to see you're on the same mindset as me...only makes me feel more open to admit I'm a crazy bastard who wants Mortal Online to, perhaps, be something it isn't trying to be. But hey, I'm a Historian, I can't code a game and don't want to; so I've gotta pressure -someone- to make a game that will be in my forte, no? ;D

[Rathius]

Well said Victor, I too would agree with these and have posted in various topics. The new thing, that I like of yours is the no Insta-Death section. That certainly sounds like a good idea. That and it lessens the moral debate some, you can beat someone down out of neccessity but you really don't have to kill them. It puts them in state where they can't do anything and you can show mercy without having them just come up behind you as soon as you turn your back. Since they have only the 0-1 hp left they're really hurting and not jumping around like jack-russel terrier.....

[Lachrymose]

i agree with what you said, but some of these things you won't have to worry about.

- there won't be any "insta-death" one hit kills.
- there won't be uber gear as the game isn't meant to be gear based. sure, some gear will be better than others, but most gear will be craftable, which means you won't have to spend 8 hours trying to kill a boss in hopes of getting some super leet sword that owns anyone it touches.
- there will at least be near full loot (keep in mind, UO didn't even have full loot. boats, runebooks, spellbooks, etc were all blessed).

as far as the other things go, i think most of us agree with you:
- Healthbars: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/2...ndicators.html
- Weapon skill reqs and artificial numbers: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/2...trictions.html

hopefully some of these issues will be resolves or at least improved upon in MO. i don't expect them to completely get rid of numbers or healthbars (as sorjak mentioned, in 1st person you won't be able to see your character's status visually), and having to meet certain requirements to hold weapons or harvest resources is just stupid (http://bp3.blogger.com/_ynOlmkpsf8U/...imfall_005.jpg), but i think wow did a pretty good job with that because you could attempt to perform any skill, but if you sucked at it, you'd fail or it wouldn't be very effective.

[Victor]

Concerning a few things, for clarification.

I believe some misunderstood what I meant with insta-death. I meant that once you reach 0% health you die in MMOs, what I suggested however is that you would not die, rather be incapacitated. Say, you got 60 seconds (The time span must be tested) before you actually die (bleed to death), or your opponent can actually make a choice, either he finishes you off after you are defeated right away, or, lo and behold, he decides to be a good guy, he decides to patch you up with some basic first-aid skills, that will allow you to slowly recover your strength (thus preventing you for being a threat to him right away).

Concerning Full-loot again, I believe everything was lootable in UO from the get go, what you (Lachrymose) talk about is the “blessed item” feature they implemented which made many of us scratch our heads. Shortly after they implemented Trammel and Fellucia, and UO was over.

Your Own Healthbar
As I mentioned concerning your own healthbar, it can easily be presented to you in a different way, other than the generic and monotonous healthbar. Visual effects can alert the player of his status, such as a blurry screen, blood splats on the screen, he can start to fumble, gradually become tiresome, as in taking longer time for him to perform a swing.

Believe it or not, there are better ways. More fun ways, more exciting ways. That will not end up as tedious things for the gamer, or make it a dreaded gaming experience, rather enhance the game-play and bring some well-deserved excitement into the genre. However, as always, it’s a matter of balance and tweaking.

Think of it like this:

100% health – body in perfect condition
80% health – blood splat on screen – Your character is still performing well, minor cuts and bruises.
60% - Blood splats and blurry screen due to loss of blood
30% - Players gradually starts to swing slower/run slower, as in your character’s body is wearing down, gradually starts to break so to speak.
0% - Players falls to the ground, he is defeated

Opponent walks forward and delivers the final blow, player is dead. OOoOoOoO! or an honourable foe, patch you up using some basic first-aid skills.
Now imagine in your mind, a duel between two players, both are on the verge of collapsing i.e 30% health or lower. Now, that is game-play we all should advocate for.

Thanks for all the positive remarks, and it sure feels good that I am not alone.

Now we just need a dev that is a team player too! Or I could always take my car and pay Star Vault a visit. hehe Their office is only 30 minutes away from me.

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by Victor

Think of it like this:

100% health – body in perfect condition
80% health – blood splat on screen – Your character is still performing well, minor cuts and bruises.
60% - Blood splats and blurry screen due to loss of blood
30% - Players gradually starts to swing slower/run slower, as in your character’s body is wearing down, gradually starts to break so to speak.
0% - Players falls to the ground, he is defeated

Opponent walks forward and delivers the final blow, player is dead. OOoOoOoO! or an honourable foe, patch you up using some basic first-aid skills.

i like this idea, i mean as long as you know generally how much u've got left in you thats really all that we need. im just wondering from a gameplay perspective since if ur character physically starts slowing down when your dying, that might frustrate a lot of people. especially people who play better under pressure since when they realize they're dying, they step up their game. but if you weigh those people down with slower movements and attacks i think people might just give up once it kicks in and people giving up might not be any fun.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lazyasian224

i like this idea, i mean as long as you know generally how much u've got left in you thats really all that we need. im just wondering from a gameplay perspective since if ur character physically starts slowing down when your dying, that might frustrate a lot of people. especially people who play better under pressure since when they realize they're dying, they step up their game. but if you weigh those people down with slower movements and attacks i think people might just give up once it kicks in and people giving up might not be any fun.

People will never give up. In that phase, they will try to get away, keep their foe at a distance, walk/run/limp back to a healer, maybe apply some bandages on their own, drink a magical potion, or invoke some magic if they won't get interrupted to rejuvenate their stamina & strengths. As I said, this will have to be tested and tweaked, so it does not feel cumbersome for the player, rather an exciting moment in your daily gaming experience.

What if I said it like this... in regular games you usually have 100% health. Once 0% you are dead.

Well, with this idea you have 130% health, the last remaining 30% your character's body is on the verge of collapsing, your survival instincts kick in, you endure 30% more physical pain, until your body collapse, 0% you are defeated. -1% which is the final blow ala the fatality means death. Naturally if you do nothing, these last remaining 30% health will quickly be gone, 1-2 blows from your opponent, and you are defeated.

You see, this is a win win scenario, since in regular MMOs you only endure 100% healths, then you are dead. With this new feature, you endure 100% of perfect body condition, 30% of clutching on to your life, and at 0% you are defeated, your body shuts down. After all you are a hero, and a hard bugger to kill.

And both winner and loser, will enjoy the death blow, the fatality. There is nothing more exciting in games like Severance, Assassin's creed, The Witcher, Gears of War, than to deliver or recieve the final blow, be that a stomp, a sword run through the guts, head dismemberment, you get the point. And I believe many people would also spare each other, from the final blow, and may haps consider twice before ending someone else’s character life.

[Ravenwoods]

good on paper bad on practice...most of the time!

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Ravenwoods

good on paper bad on practice...most of the time!

Speaking of experience, Ravenwoods?

[Lachrymose]

yea, i just don't like the idea that as you take more damage, your character gets physically weaker.. basically, whoever gets the jump on someone else will probably win since they get a couple good hits in, and the guys already moving/attacking slower. i mean, yea, it's realistic, but sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay, and i think this is one of those times.

here's what i think about healthbars

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

yea, i just don't like the idea that as you take more damage, your character gets physically weaker.. basically, whoever gets the jump on someone else will probably win since they get a couple good hits in, and the guys already moving/attacking slower. i mean, yea, it's realistic, but sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay, and i think this is one of those times.

here's what i think about healthbars

So let me get this straight, instead of having players moving/attacking slower, you would rather continue the childish tirade with root/snare/knockbacks...

The difference is, root/snare/knockback are taken away from the game-play, while moving/attacking slower is implemented in the game.

I think you have to try it to understand the benefits.

Other than that, let me try to convince you, instead of being dead at 0%, you move slower/attack slower and you still have a chance of surviving, to get a heal if you are out of combat, unless 30% more damage are dealt on you, then you are defeated.

In a traditional MMO, you would just die at 0% health.

See my point?

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Victor

So let me get this straight, instead of having players moving/attacking slower, you would rather continue the childish tirade with root/snare/knockbacks...

The difference is, root/snare/knockback are taken away from the game-play, while moving/attacking slower is implemented in the game.

I think you have to try it to understand the benefits.

Other than that, let me try to convince you, instead of being dead at 0%, you move slower/attack slower and you still have a chance of surviving, to get a heal if you are out of combat, unless 30% more damage are dealt on you, then you are defeated.

In a traditional MMO, you would just die at 0% health.

See my point?

i never said there should be root/snares, and no i don't like them either... at 0% health, you shouldn't be running anywhere. you should by lying on the ground. i'm not sure what you mean by "out-of-combat" since the game is collision based and there won't be "in-combat" and "out-of-combat," but i'm pretty sure if you're at 0% health, there's a guy standing above you getting ready to finish you off.

there will be hitboxes, and i'm hoping to see status effects associated with those hit boxes. you hit someone's arm that's holding a weapon, they attack slower/weaker with it. hit an arm that's got a shield, their blocks are less effective. hit someone in the leg, their movement speed decreased. and a hit to the head would be a critical hit.

so... that way you have to at least decide "do i want to just go for the throat and try to take them out asap, or should i be more tactical in my approach? i can tell this player is quick, maybe i should slow him down first?" to me, that puts a lot more strategy into it than just "i'm gonna bang that there guy in the head with dis club! aarggh!"

linking straight damage with crippling effects doesn't sound like a good idea to me, it'd be much better if they were separated w/ hitboxes. i'm all for visible indications of your physical status, and sure, if you're at like 25% health, maybe your attacks should be slower, etc. but i don't think a few hits should already put you at a disadvantage. i don't want the game to let me know i'm losing the battle by putting me at a disadvantage...

[Ravenwoods]

Originally Posted by Victor

Speaking of experience, Ravenwoods?

Well, as you know there is no one game that fullly does it as you described it but there is a good reason why.

1) is that it takes alot of resources
2) it mechanically fails for it becomes harder to read your apponent and use any strategy.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Victor

No Healthbars

"Healthbars" are in, but no numbers, percent or details. Believe me when I say this is very far from point-and-click combat in many other MMO's where the healthbars is what you are actually looking at, as your character is doing all the aiming and fighting for you.

Originally Posted by Victor

No Insta-deaths – Fatalities instead

We are working at something very similar to this.

Originally Posted by Victor

No “Your skill is too low to climb/wield that weapon/”

We only use the "you don't have the skill/your skill is too low to do this" when there's no other possible solution, or when such a solution would take too much time to implement.

Originally Posted by Victor

No Über gears

No über-gears.

Originally Posted by Victor

Do Not Display Numbers

No numbers.

Originally Posted by Victor

Full Loot

Full Loot

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

"Healthbars" are in, but no numbers, percent or details. Believe me when I say this is very far from point-and-click combat in many other MMO's where the healthbars is what you are actually looking at, as your character is doing all the aiming and fighting for you.

I think the important question regarding to the healthbars is whether you'll always see healthbars over peoples' heads, or only when you focus them in your crosshairs for a while?

If it's the latter case, then they're okay, but if the latter then they're not :/ I agree that you should be able to gain extra information you cannot get otherwise (such as person's health condition), when you wish, but not all the time - if it's viable to obtain this information. For instance, I wouldn't mind detailed health info only being available with the use of some sort of "diagnosis" -skill.

[Ravenwoods]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

"Healthbars" are in, but no numbers, percent or details. Believe me when I say this is very far from point-and-click combat in many other MMO's where the healthbars is what you are actually looking at, as your character is doing all the aiming and fighting for you.

We are working at something very similar to this.

We only use the "you don't have the skill/your skill is too low to do this" when there's no other possible solution, or when such a solution would take too much time to implement.

No über-gears.

No numbers.

Full Loot

So health bar is very much like Oblivion's I guess.


Btw, I love you guys