Visual Feedback Instead of Text, Healthbars and What-not.

[Rathius]

How would you like to see your health displayed?

I've seen threads on the User Interface, but nothing specifically related to health indication. So, the idea here is how you would prefer to see your health status.

Personally I'd like to see some sort of dimming vision as you get lower in health. This way, there is no need to look at a health indicator somewhere else on your screen. The player could keep their eyes on the action the whole time while still noticing their health status.

Also, what would be interesting, is if the the attacks and/or movement would slow down so that you could notice it as well. This would also be an indication that your enemy is low on health without displaying enemey health bars

I don't like the idea of health bars, especially with exact numbers. Mainly because I feel it turns the game into some sort of meta-game health balancing madness. As I said before, it also makes you look away from the action. I could go for health bars... but only if they don't tell you exact numbers and are implemented somewhere closer to the action.

[Eknav]

Me, personally: I want no interface on my screen while wandering around or battling. Nothing. If -anything- then something as simple as Oblivion's...but absolutely nothing more than that.

However, in terms of Oblivion - I don't want health bars. Ever. Nor fatigue bars or 'magicka' bars. I want raw-out 'holy crap am I about to die?' by some other means.

My thoughts: As you are fighting, swinging your hammer, you become tired - your attacks slow and you can hardly carry the hammer. You try to back off and rest for a moment. You get hit in the head with an arrow.

You are so close to death that you fall onto the ground, the edges of your screen go all blurry and red (like in GoW or CoD4) and you literally crawl around, trying to either avenge yourself or escape your tormentor. A sword through the back of your head.

I think going with the idea of games like CoD4 and GoW is the proper direction for Mortal Online, or perhaps instead the proper direction for -my- Mortal Online.

If MO were to still have health, stamina and fatigue bars you bet your hiney I'd still play the crap out of the game. But I must admit, to see an innovative and new idea for health bars would be just beyond amazing.

P.S. My "Gears of War/Call of Duty 4-esque" death/health is why I voted 'other'.

[Zwackelzahn]

For plain practicallity I vote healthbar! until today I havent seen a better impementation and why invent the wheel from scratch?! Certain things evolve like the typicall controls with mouse and wasd etc... and you simply keep what has prooven to be intuitive and practical...

saying that, if you can convince me about the advantages of a diffrent system am all ears...

For me personally am not distractet by a health bar at all, i have it in my peripheral vision and concentrate on the action while making strategic decisions based on th eamount of health I do have compared to my opponent and the tricks I still have up my sleeves(moves, energy, mana, potions, cooldowns and whatnot)
So I vote healthbar: never change the winning team kinda spirit, but give me a better system and I am all up for it! BUT it has to be better!

[Zwackelzahn]

Eknav: thats a very romantic point of view

[Rathius]

Zwackelzahn - How about a combination of these? This way you don't have to constantly keep up with it. You'll be able to notice if you're getting low and then can glance at it and make your decision?

[Zwackelzahn]

Sounds very good!

[Eknav]

But see, Zwackelzahn, you're also putting ideas of "cooldowns", etc. into the game. Why have an action bar as well? Now let's not highjack the thread talking about that, but:

Certainly numbers are important. Certainly a little bar to show your characters state of aliveness can help, but why is it important if the combat is suppose to be skill based and realistic? If you get stabbed through the throat, you're nearly a gonner. Why bother saying, "omfgyouhave1hpzleftlol", but instead do something totally original and innovative?

Isn't that what Mortal is going for? Innovation and creativity. I think that a good way to spawn more creativity is to get as far from the old RPG elements as possible and insert more action-oriented elements, from FPS and action games and the like.

Also, regarding your argument of "why fix something that isn't broken", because that's sort of what you were saying, no Zwackelzahn? I agree with you. I understand that health bars really aren't bad, and truly don't "ruin" a game. I am simply wanting something more creative, something we've not seen - and like you said, something better; you're right, though, it has to be better.

[Zwackelzahn]

Originally Posted by Eknav

but why is it important if the combat is suppose to be skill based and realistic? If you get stabbed through the throat, you're nearly a gonner.

Eknav, mostly we are on the same page but for the quote I did, thats a VERY diffrent oppinion from mine!

The game is skill based - yes! BUT that means there will be like x amount of skills to train (maybe 50 or maybe 100 who knows). On top of that there are indeed game mechanics in place that go away from the classical approach like manual aiming rather than autohit with homing missile type of spells! There is a reason though for the old approach and that is mainly LAG of the internet! While it is much better with the LAG nowadays it still sucks at times, especially when you have too many players or when the infrastructure has issues. A reaction based game is very fragile with the lag and frustrating. Thats why it will be a compromise.

You mentioned FPS and for those its no problem if you have a day of lag or if you die thru lag who cares, you just spwan again!

In this game you will loos e all your stuff, cause people will loot it from you! it might have taken you a week to work for that equippment! 8 hours a day!

See thats why there is no such thing like a stab thru the throat or a headshot or a 1hit kill! because that again affords NO SKILL!

So you are bit off with your thinking about a pure player skilled Sandbox MMO without RPG stats and Skills! Not gonne happen!

[Lachrymose]

i voted 'other' and i have to side with eknav on this one. health bars certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker, and it doesn't really hurt the gameplay, but i'd like to see something new.

I like the idea of dimmed/blurred vision, but only when you're very close to death. the problem being that if someone gets the first hit in, if the dimming already starts to occur, it will give the initial attacker a slight advantage. same thing with the idea to slow player movement/attacks.

i'd say these effects shouldn't occur until your player reaches about 25% health left or so. there's no reason someone who's been struck a few times should begin to move more slowly. if anything, he'll be moving more quickly b/c his adrenaline will begin to rush. it won't be until he is nearing death that the fatigue will overcome the adrenaline.

but then how can you tell what you're health is at before you reach 25%?
i don't think you as a player should need to know exactly how much health he has left, as long as you have a general idea. you should be able to have a general idea of your character's health just by looking at him. the more blood, sweat, bruises are on his body, the closer he is to death. phsycial signs of your condition should be apparent not only to you, but to anyone else that were to stumble across your path. if your character is dripping with blood, be ready for the next blow because it could be the last.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Zwackelzahn

In this game you will loos e all your stuff, cause people will loot it from you! it might have taken you a week to work for that equippment! 8 hours a day!

i just had to address this. zwack, since the game will be reliant on player skill, you won't be that dependent on having good gear. that means, any gear you will likely be wearing will be easily replaceable. there will be no such thing as gear that took you a week playing 8 hours a day to obtain in MO.

although i agree, there should definitely not be any 1 hit kills. however, i don't think eknav meant that there would be 1hit kills, i think he was just trying to stress that realism should be important.

[Zwackelzahn]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

you won't be that dependent on having good gear. that means, any gear you will likely be wearing will be easily replaceable. there will be no such thing as gear that took you a week playing 8 hours a day to obtain in MO.

Well 2 things:

1st. Depends on the stage of the game, at the beginning it will be a lot more effort to get stuff! And the comparison is just an example but might not be totally off. Later into the game your house will fill up with loot and trust me: you will always wear the best type of possible armor - why? because it makes a diffrence and you have tons of the top gear in your house!

2nd. Its a balancing Issue really: If gear isnt making a diffrence than the whole crafter side and the whole economy side will suffer and the more important thing - the smaller the issue of loosing stuff becomes in the first place...


See there must be a reason in the game why EVERYONE wears armor! That way you really gain by killing someone! Or really loose!

The worst thing for MO would be that armor has such a litle advantage that all the most skilled guys would run around naked! Than the game is broken!

Got my point of view?

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Zwackelzahn

Well 2 things:

1st. Depends on the stage of the game, at the beginning it will be a lot more effort to get stuff! And the comparison is just an example but might not be totally off. Later into the game your house will fill up with loot and trust me: you will always wear the best type of possible armor - why? because it makes a diffrence and you have tons of the top gear in your house!

2nd. Its a balancing Issue really: If gear isnt making a diffrence than the whole crafter side and the whole economy side will suffer and the more important thing - the smaller the issue of loosing stuff becomes in the first place...


See there must be a reason in the game why EVERYONE wears armor! That way you really gain by killing someone! Or really loose!

The worst thing for MO would be that armor has such a litle advantage that all the most skilled guys would run around naked! Than the game is broken!

Got my point of view?

Wrong.

If gear isn't a big deal then why would the crafters suffer? People would run around in the mediocre gear and die, no big deal the stuff is cheap, while the crafters mass produce said mediocre gear, it's a win win situation.

And why would someone run around naked, think realistically armor does something but not everything. I'm sure if you ran around naked you would get killed so fast you wouldn't have time to swing your sword. Besides this is getting off topic.
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Anyway, I voted for other. I too would love to see minimal UI. Perhaps blurred vision on your part and maybe like in some FPS's where you hear your heart beating and you breathing really hard making it harder to focus on your surroundings would be cool too.

As for the opponent, you could see them attacking a bit slower blood seaping from parts of their body or something like that.

[golani79]

I think dimming vision and slowed reactions would be fine to display players health - a colorful health bar is too mainstream in my opinion.

So let it be something different!

[SkirmCard]

I've always been a fan of bodies having hit zones (which I've heard is a possibility with the unreal engine). So with that I would suggest maybe having some sort of system showing what body parts are injured, and then said body parts not working as well as they usually do (or maybe they're not even there). Couple that with a combination of blow severity / blood loss and there might be a very nice intuitive health system.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Zwackelzahn

Well 2 things:

1st. Depends on the stage of the game, at the beginning it will be a lot more effort to get stuff! And the comparison is just an example but might not be totally off. Later into the game your house will fill up with loot and trust me: you will always wear the best type of possible armor - why? because it makes a diffrence and you have tons of the top gear in your house!

2nd. Its a balancing Issue really: If gear isnt making a diffrence than the whole crafter side and the whole economy side will suffer and the more important thing - the smaller the issue of loosing stuff becomes in the first place...


See there must be a reason in the game why EVERYONE wears armor! That way you really gain by killing someone! Or really loose!

The worst thing for MO would be that armor has such a litle advantage that all the most skilled guys would run around naked! Than the game is broken!

Got my point of view?

when i said pvp isn't meant to be gear dependent, i didn't mean someone with no gear would be on relatively equal grounds as someone with full plate armor. certainly the person that's wearing gear will be at an advantage.

what i said was that gear would be easily replaceable. that doesn't mean it will be free. that doesn't mean all gear will be totally the same. it does mean, however, that most likely crafters will create some of the best gear in the game, so you won't have to go on a 20 man raid and fight a boss or farm muckshell scrabblers for hours on end. sure, there will be some gear that's better than others, but the point is that almost everyone will have access to some of the best gear, although the very best gear may only drop from difficult boss, it shouldn't be much better than the best craftable gear.

yes, gear may be more difficult to come by at the beginning of the game, but at the beginning of the game you'll have shitty gear that will be easily replaced since it's very cheap. then, as you can afford better gear, it will begin to cost you a little more to replace the gear, but you'll be able to make money more easily by then since you'll most likely have some skills built up that allow you to make money.

i can almost guarantee you that there will be no gear that will take you a week to get playing 8 hours a day. and if there's any gear that actually does take that long to get, i'm sure it wouldn't be worth it since MO is meant to focus on the player's skill, not the character's gear.

[Eknav]

Lachrymose, I think we are pretty much on the same page.

Let's not go to too many topics here, though, folks.

The issue is the health bar - in, out, a combination of a health bar and something else, etc.?

I feel that with everything you have said, Lachrymose, that a health bar will indeed be unnecessary... Especially since you are coming from the same viewpoint I am in terms of "skill based gameplay" and a "PvP oriented game" not WoW-trash or "getting gear".

I don't care about your blue label on your gear; I care whether or not my axe is sharp enough to cut through your skull and if I have enough strength to get it from point A, resting in my hands, to point B, the brain in your skull. I'm not sure how a gear discussion got brought up, but regretfully it doesn't relate to health bars entirely... There is, however, discussion about that somewhere around here. I'd link them, but am far too lazy. Haha.

Now, back to health bars: golani79, I am glad you feel that way, and I agree. While mainstream isn't bad (some of the time! ;D), we have to see something different with a revolutionary MMORPG such as Mortal Online. We just have to. Not only in regards to something "as small" as a health bar, but in many other forms as well, which the lot of you've been discussing.

I think I've said my piece; have it folks. ;P

[Lachrymose]

alright, i know the topic is specifically health bars, but if people want health bars to be replaced with something else, we'll have to do something with stamina bars and mana bars as well. after all, what's the point in getting rid of the health bar when there's other bars still cluttering up the gui? any suggestions on those?

here's mine:
1) health: as your health drops, visible signs of damage appear on your body that indicate your current condition to you and anyone else that sees you. this could be in the form of cuts, bruises, or just blood dripping from your body. vision starts to "dim" as your health gets very low as well.
2) stamina: as your stamina drops, your character's breathing begins to get heavier and his attacks and movement will be visibly slower.
3) mana: i'm not too sure about this one. i was thinking some sort of auditory signal, such as when you're casting a spell with lower mana, you're player may begin to sound as if he's straining to cast, and as mana drops further the strain becomes more intense.

i'm just getting the ball rolling. i'm curious to see what others can come up with. any other ideas? i just don't think we can focus on health bars without thinking about other possible status bars.

[Sanctus]

health: as your health drops, visible signs of damage appear on your body that indicate your current condition to you and anyone else that sees you. this could be in the form of cuts, bruises, or just blood dripping from your body.

That is similar to Requiem: Bloodymare, and I agree, visible signs would be a fantastic replacement for the Health Bar, I'm just curious to see how feasible it would be to make the cuts and such more on the New Generation of Graphics that is being presented in MO, I would really rather not have the combat system rattled with unrealistic "Box Graphic" cuts. Now, that's not to say I would not enjoy seeing the real-time physical wounds thing done, something else would be having the wound appear where strikes were being made, i.e. if I had just cut someone's leg, and the cut appears on his arm, that's not very enticing...

Health: Adding on to this idea, blood loss is not a bad idea at all, especially when, if you think about it, so much could be done with that. First of all, yeah, with too much blood drained from your system, you would have a blur to your vision, secondly, loss of action in a limb...
Stamina: With the Stamina thing, stumbling would be a good addition, even the chance of tripping. Also, on the Stamina subject, the strain to casting is a good idea to add to Stamina rather than to Mana, stuttering and/or mixing a spell with another one having (unknown) effects. Like I've said before, in my opinion, I see magic dealing with focusing on a spell, and that can drain a person's stamina as well as his/her mana. No one can tell me writing a 10 pg. essay straight wouldn't start to drain on your body as well as your mind.
Mana: I'm not sure about this one... Someone would not actually "see" my state of mind, they could deduce it from my actions, but it cannot be seen in the natural sense. I'm not to sure I agree with the strain to speaking a spell, that sounds more like a Stamina issue to me...Mana seems like it would be a tough bar to replace... I've always seen Mana as the means with which to cast a spell, nothing more, so I'm unsure as to how that could be made visible.

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

alright, i know the topic is specifically health bars, but if people want health bars to be replaced with something else, we'll have to do something with stamina bars and mana bars as well. after all, what's the point in getting rid of the health bar when there's other bars still cluttering up the gui? any suggestions on those?

here's mine:
1) health: as your health drops, visible signs of damage appear on your body that indicate your current condition to you and anyone else that sees you. this could be in the form of cuts, bruises, or just blood dripping from your body. vision starts to "dim" as your health gets very low as well.
2) stamina: as your stamina drops, your character's breathing begins to get heavier and his attacks and movement will be visibly slower.
3) mana: i'm not too sure about this one. i was thinking some sort of auditory signal, such as when you're casting a spell with lower mana, you're player may begin to sound as if he's straining to cast, and as mana drops further the strain becomes more intense.

i'm just getting the ball rolling. i'm curious to see what others can come up with. any other ideas? i just don't think we can focus on health bars without thinking about other possible status bars.

Well I'm curious, who came up with mana? Since when did becoming a mage automatically give you a whole nother life force of sorts? Honestly? Maybe even getting rid of mana completley? I'm sure something could be implemented to balance it, but that's a whole nother topic.

The only problem I see is if it's an auditory signal then people are at a disadvantage for not having speakers plugged in or sound turned on. If it's not a bar it has to something visible.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by ccoa

Well I'm curious, who came up with mana? Since when did becoming a mage automatically give you a whole nother life force of sorts? Honestly? Maybe even getting rid of mana completley? I'm sure something could be implemented to balance it, but that's a whole nother topic.

The only problem I see is if it's an auditory signal then people are at a disadvantage for not having speakers plugged in or sound turned on. If it's not a bar it has to something visible.

but if it's visible, the people without monitors will be at a disadvantage.

yea, i was just throwing that out there. i was going to say players could have some sort of "glowing essence" or something that would begin to fade, and when it was no longer visible it meant you had no mana. then i thought about it a while and decided i wouldn't want my character glowing...

i'm all for getting rid of mana completely. as sanctus said above me, the mental strain from casting magic is just as stressful on stamina as any physical strain, so maybe magic could just be reliant on stamina. even with no stamina, you can cast, but your spells will be somewhat weaker and cast times will be longer. meleers lose stamina swinging their weapons or blocking, ranged lose stamina shooting arrows or throwing weapons, and mages lose stamina from casting. seems like it would sort of keep things relatively balanced.

[Saviour]

I would go with the blury edges system like in COD4 I think it would work pretty well

[postell_service]

i personally voted for health bar, but I'm more of a fan of the "health Globe" rather than a thin long bar. I guess its me playing too much diablo II but I find it takes up less room on the screen and leaves more space for hot keys and stuff. I'm also against not having some sort of visible indicator for health... Just having your vision get blurry or sluggish movements, even seeing yourself bleed, that sounds cool but just isn't practical in an mmo. Imagine if your fighting multiple monsters at once (which no doubt WILL happen to you at some point or another) and all of a sudden, my vision gets blurry... I want to know exactly how much longer i can keep fighting before i got to heal up or retreat. To me, no health bar at all is like driving without being able to see past 10 feet in front of you. When your at that point where its either keep going or retreat and get out of the way, its usually too late.

[Reverend Mundane]

How would you see other people's state of health if there's no health bars? Healers might have problems without. Add visible wounds to player model? Switch animations to "wounded stance"?

[Rathius]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by postell_service

I want to know exactly how much longer i can keep fighting before i got to heal up or retreat.