RAIDING - What's the right size?

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

It would be a logistical nightmare to coordinate any more than 50 players. During my WoW raiding days (Yes I played WoW, I raided bosses, and cities, trying to juggle 50 players), and it was just a nightmare, I would get burned out after 1 round and couldn't handle any more after that. Though most of the time the raids did end up going well...

But the point is, it's an absolute nightmare trying to manage 50 people in real time, any more and the group leaders will go insane...

I used to form PuG PoP Flag Raids in EQ... 72-man... Had an issue with Grummus once, the Ranger told me several times that he was on track, so we formed up, cleared all the way there, and he wasn't, had to apologize to 70 people for wasting their time (thankfully, after I explained, all eyes turned to the Ranger). Then there was Bertoxx... I think we got him on the 17th go. Each attempt at Bertoxx had to be a different raid, cause if you failed, the event was disabled for quite a while (I think it reset after 3 hours back then) and if some guild had already killed him, he was down for a week.

It's tiring, but rewarding.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

But the point is, it's an absolute nightmare trying to manage 50 people in real time, any more and the group leaders will go insane...

Atelast FPS games have somewhat of a solution for this in their voice chat. But I completely understand how much of a pain it would be with just typing.

With some of the FPS games I've played, you have the Commander which can talk to the individual Squad Leaders only. Then the Squad Leaders have communication with the Commander and their Squad Members.

I could see some sort of system like this helping out. But that doesn't mean I'm for imposing a limit on people. A system like this could still allow for as many people as you need to get the job done.

[silenced]

tbh, we had no problems in daoc to manage up to 200 people in any masterlevel raid (everybody hated them ôô)

groupsize = 8 people, all organized in a big battlegroup (200 was max)


so it really depends on the community and what's their skill,

[Kreeper]

Originally Posted by silenced

could you all do us a big favor and get "raiding" out of your wowerized brains ? thanks a lot !


stuff like one of the 1-time-bigboss-mobs is no raid-content, that's something different of course -> groupsize should be set by the players, if you think you can handle 200 people in one group then why not ? if you want to split them up in teams by 15 each and gather them all together in a big battlegroup (for example: 10 groups with 15 people -> 1 battlegroup where all 150 can read and write, and a sub-channel for the battlegroup where only the grpleaders + his/her assistants can write and read to get the strategy = why not ?)


and really, what's all about that raiding ? you repeat basic pve-actions all the time to see a boss fall up to 20 times in several weeks ... where's the fun ? face 200 organized people in a fight for a territory with a big keep = always something new ... who needs pve raids ? delete that in your brains please ! you kill every game with such crap ...

Yeah the bottom line is raiding can be considered anything as much as you guys who hate the fact that WoW is what it is today the bottom line is its changed the MMO industry in many good ways as well as some bad.

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

ahem! that's "EQerized". Thank you very much. EQ had raids before WoW was an itch in Blizzard's pants... and, controls aside, EQ was 10x the game WoW ever was. (and I'm hoping MO will be 10x the game EQ ever was)

Sometimes I think the anti-WoWers are more obsessed with WoW than those that are neutral to it... It's certainly ever present in these and the Darkfall forums. Mention any aspect that may have ever even touched the WoW game and the cries go out of "Carebear!" and "OMG WoW!"... Pretty soon people will be demanding MUDs because WoW used 3D graphics... god we can't do that, it's WoW-minded! 3D graphics, WTF! Friggin' Carebear, needing graphical representations of the game you're playing... jeeze.

I'm sorry if I enjoy gathering and organizing a large group (72+) people together to take down some huge beast/boss/dragon/god/etc.

Thank you its mighty frustrating people cry "carebear" the second a phrase or comment in regards to WoW comes up, people need to realize MMO gaming wouldnt be what it is today or as immensely popular as it is today without the success of WoW, wether you like it or not its the truth.

Companies wouldnt be making "risky" MMO's if 10+ million people werent playing MMO's, so keep that in mind before you cry carebear.

The sole reason MO is even in production is because the opportunity to become huge is there after watching a game like WoW have 10+ million people playing it.

MO should be a unique different MMO much different than WoW is or will ever be, MO is going to be a "niche" product hopefully catering to all the "hardcore" old school players and also trying to find a happy medium for new MMO players.

The game will be an absolute success if it can comfortably maintain 100,000+ subscribers and work its way up from there, it might not even need that many to be a success considering its a smaller studio in general.

I realize I'm speculating on some things and am way off topic on this thread now but it needs to be said. Hopefully you guys at least get what im trying to say just a little bit..


After reading the responses it seems to me that its being taken off track in terms of that the bottom line is I don't care what cap / raid size (or whatever the hell you want to call it considering the word "raid" is so awful) I don't want people who can sit and PvP alllllllll day and have the best loot, bottom line.

RAIDS that take 50-100-200-300 (The bottom line is i want a mass of people not just 6 or 5 or 10 to kill these bosses) people I don't care what the number is ultimately or if there is some dumb cap, The Raids need to be in the game to attain that super rare loot that the guy that stays home all day grinding PvP will never be able to attain until he decides to grouping and RAID PVE content that may take 10hrs to kill the boss.

Catch my drift?

[Hypnos]

I think 40 is a little to much but 24 to small.
Then I vote 40.

[Lyllyth]

ok, since someone saw fit to give me negative Rep for this post...

Originally Posted by Someone

what are you arguing about? ok EQ = 10.WoW, but it was still a theme park -_-

What was I arguing about? The statement that Raiding = WoW... I then pointed out that people scream "WoW" when one of the features used in the game is mentioned, regardless if it originated in that game or not. As for the topic of the thread, at the end I stated that I enjoy gathering large numbers for raids, 72+ poeple.
I never said EQ was not a theme park, nor did I say that EQ was "the shiznitz" (or any equivalent), I stated that it was 10x the game WoW was (other than controls), which, believe me, leaves a LOT of room.

Game1: "Oh damn, a pile of shit."
Game2: "heh, my pile of shit is best shit out there, ten million sniffers!"
Game3: "It's still shit."

[la griffe]

I think raiding should only exist for armies, lord troups or anything that is lored structured.

Raid as they exist today are the dumbest thing mmorpg have invented with battleground just behind ...

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Kreeper

Yeah the bottom line is raiding can be considered anything as much as you guys who hate the fact that WoW is what it is today the bottom line is its changed the MMO industry in many good ways as well as some bad.





Thank you its mighty frustrating people cry "carebear" the second a phrase or comment in regards to WoW comes up, people need to realize MMO gaming wouldnt be what it is today or as immensely popular as it is today without the success of WoW, wether you like it or not its the truth.

Companies wouldnt be making "risky" MMO's if 10+ million people werent playing MMO's, so keep that in mind before you cry carebear.

The sole reason MO is even in production is because the opportunity to become huge is there after watching a game like WoW have 10+ million people playing it.

God I would prefer the mmorpg gaming industry BEFORE wow. It was niche, communities were far better, friendlier and overall playing a mmorpg was an immserive experience.

EQ 1 >>>> WoW in EVERY way

Its bigger, more intensive, challenging AND rewarding in a way wow never will be. 10 mio. subs means nothing. Compare it with cars:

How many people are driving a Lamborghini and how many a Ford?

Well you know Lamborghini >>>> Ford every way. Same is it with Eq 1 and WoW. The only game with MORE freedom ==>Ultima Online.

I wouldn't say that wow did many good thinks to the mmorpg industry. Niche games >>> Mass BS

[Kreeper]

Originally Posted by Odin

God I would prefer the mmorpg gaming industry BEFORE wow. It was niche, communities war far better, friendlier and overall the playing a mmorpg was an immserive experience.

EQ 1 >>>> WoW in EVERY way

Its bigger, more intensive, challenging AND rewarding in a way wow never will be. 10 mio. subs means nothing. Compare it with cars:

How many people are driving a Lamborghini and how many a Ford?

Well you know Lamborghini >>>> Ford every way. Same is it with Eq 1 and WoW. The only game with MORE freedom ==>Ultima Online.

I wouldn't say that wow did many good thinks to the mmorpg industry. Niche games >>> Mass BS

Why do you think all these small little studios are even trying to make these MMOs? Because the success of EQ1? LOL...

10 Million subs means a lot and brought a wave of people who never gave a crap about MMO's into this genre which in turn fueled a bunch publishers/studios to start cranking out MMOs. WoW because of the way its been designed and "carebear" status its been given has given the opportunity for games like MO to be a "niche" product now.

[Odin]

First off all sorry for my crapy grammar (gonna correct it soon).

Why do you think all these small little studios are even trying to make these MMOs? Because the success of EQ1? LOL...

10 Million subs means a lot and brought a wave of people who never gave a crap about MMO's into this genre which in turn fueled a bunch publishers/studios to start cranking out MMOs. WoW because of the way its been designed and "carebear" status its been given has given the opportunity for games like MO to be a "niche" product now.

Well lets take a look at all the "new studios/people" wow brought in:

- before: $oe after: M$, €A - all bad for small companies

- people: carebears, pple without time that want everything instant, kiddies, tv
junkies - goood? In no way...

- people that want xp for NOT playing a game (resting xp? wtf!)? good - no

- people that don't give a crap about mmorpg-behaviour like asking before you inspekt someone, talk to people before you invite them..


I can guarantee you, no game will ever reach 10 mio. subs again. There's absolutely no need for such big games. Better have a challenging, immersive and anti-carebear "niche" game instead of the crappy and lazy community games like wow brought in.

I don't say that wow is a bad game at all. Personally I just can't stand the fact, that atm almost every mmorpg is the same skillfree BS, are they getting the same subs? In no way ...

Can't tell ya how much I want mortal online to be an oldschool game, for us real mmorpg players.

[Lxx]

Ok you guys all talking...RAID>>how many ppl it should be..what is enoph and what should be cap?! Well how about devs making adaptive instances..ie
Lets say this instance has a dragon#1..that you can take down with 10 ppl..and it also has a dragon#2 that will not go down as easy as the first one,but you may manage 2 kill it with same 10 ppl.>>the only differents will be is the items and amount of goodies it dropes..compare if u go there with 50ppl dragon#2 will drop more valuble stuff...in this situation devs only need 2 create and items that drops based on amount of the ppl enter the instance...more ppl harder dragon#2 better drop and so on...no limit
Jast thinking out loud

[Zenir]

Kick the part with the instances out and rethink it again.

You need twice of the amount anyways, 1 party to kill the dragon, the second to defend against the other people who also want to kill it.

[Phi]

Hopefully there is real raids in this game... im talking about large groups of players heading to a city or town and raping, pillaging, plundering, murdering...

I don't think there should be a cap on groups tho, if a group can get up to hundreds of players thats cool, and im sure they would if there was reason do so

[golani79]

I am missing a point.

Depending on my experience it would be fine if raid dungeons would start with a group size of about 12 players.

A MMORPG should offer a good chance for smaller guilds to get nice stuff too - not only supporting the "mega guilds" with a lot more than hundrets of players organizing raids on every day throughout the week.

So, therefore I´ve voted for nothing - because a raid with about 12 players isn´t small in my opinion.

[Kreeper]

Originally Posted by golani79

I am missing a point.

Depending on my experience it would be fine if raid dungeons would start with a group size of about 12 players.

A MMORPG should offer a good chance for smaller guilds to get nice stuff too - not only supporting the "mega guilds" with a lot more than hundrets of players organizing raids on every day throughout the week.

So, therefore I´ve voted for nothing - because a raid with about 12 players isn´t small in my opinion.

By all means I'm not saying don't have 6-10-12 man dungeons for those smaller guilds, but its an absolute must to have content that takes 40+ people to drop something because it gives you truly "Epic" gear.

I just dont want to play another MMO where people can sit and PvP all day and attain the same if not better gear than people who would do 40+ man raiding.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Kreeper

By all means I'm not saying don't have 6-10-12 man dungeons for those smaller guilds, but its an absolute must to have content that takes 40+ people to drop something because it gives you truly "Epic" gear.

I just dont want to play another MMO where people can sit and PvP all day and attain the same if not better gear than people who would do 40+ man raiding.

If there are not 40+ man raids, then you won't be getting that same gear, now will you?

[Itza]

Originally Posted by Kreeper

I just dont want to play another MMO where people can sit and PvP all day and attain the same if not better gear than people who would do 40+ man raiding.

I think you are in minority here with that line of thinking. You have to remember, this is a full loot game, no soulbound weapons and armour. Even if you only got some über item by raiding, a PK can kill the raider and take the item from him, therefore earning the very same loot by "just" PvPing all day. And with no bound items, they will often also trade hands with money, that the PK has stolen from other players, again gaining the same loot in a way through PvP.

Quite a lot of people also want crafting to be an important part of the game, to the point where the most powerful items can be crafter by master crafters. It might be though that some necessary materials are very difficult to find, and may require slaying of very strong beasts.

[Isil]

Imo in a game with full loot where the most used items will come from crafters , the only pve it should exist is the needed to get money and buy from players. If you loot some nice epic weapon while you are grinding its ok ...you will lost it some day but you have not work hard for it so its not a big lost ..u were just grinding.

[woodoo]

hope for no raids

[Odin]

You need raids, because a lot of people like the pve endgame content. So raid = longtime motivation = longtime money for MO.

Personally I want to work for my items with my guild and not wait till some crafters can build them for me. After Sigil's bankrupt Vanguard became a totally crafter-driven economy and well a lot of the pve player's quit. Don't want to see the same thing happen to MO, because it has so much potential.

I would love to see something like crafter-enchants - so both sides could be happy.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Odin

You need raids, because a lot of people like the pve endgame content. So raid = longtime motivation = longtime money for MO.

Want a raid, go gather a bunch of people and attack another guild. There will be plenty of loot for everyone. And! It will be a real challenge without the mindless AI that constitutes endgame PvE Raiding.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Rathius

Want a raid, go gather a bunch of people and attack another guild. There will be plenty of loot for everyone. And! It will be a real challenge without the mindless AI that constitutes endgame PvE Raiding.

Thats a bs zerg and not a raid.

PvE raid = kill trashmobs - kill subboss - kill trashmobs - kill the BIG boss

Mindless AI? Have you ever done the Everquest1 Highend Raiding-Stuff? Please by the love of god don't think about wow raids. Eq1 raiding was something really special, challenging and rewarding. It took time, skill and coordination to figure out how to beat a 72 men raidboss.

In wow you have addons like DBM, stuff like that didn't exist in eq1.

As someone said above, I hope MO becomes 10x the game eq1 ever was. So there will be something for everyone: be it pvp raiders or pve raiders.

[Shinzon]

He was talking about how in combination with full loot; guld scale mass battle will result in massive amount of corpses; which ALL have equipment that can be taken by the winning side... Hence "Loot". Loot from other players covered in their blood.

A human oppenent moves and behaves differently to an AI, and AI you start to see through the code, and go into a pattern that can be exploited, a good human player will adapt and change, something that can't be emulated by code, not yet at least.

As for pure AI raiding, it should never be anything more than to gather materials, the real focus should be on the player interaction, that means that I would perfer the giant bosses be actualy controled by a GM. Essentialy going back to the roots of what a GM is truly supposed to be; instead of overglorified tech support, resolving issues between greifers...

So in essence because of full loot you have two types of "Raids".

The traditional PvE Tank n Slap, and a Battlefield.

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Odin

Thats a bs zerg and not a raid.

PvE raid = kill trashmobs - kill subboss - kill trashmobs - kill the BIG boss

Mindless AI? Have you ever done the Everquest1 Highend Raiding-Stuff? Please by the love of god don't think about wow raids. Eq1 raiding was something really special, challenging and rewarding. It took time, skill and coordination to figure out how to beat a 72 men raidboss.

In wow you have addons like DBM, stuff like that didn't exist in eq1.

As someone said above, I hope MO becomes 10x the game eq1 ever was. So there will be something for everyone: be it pvp raiders or pve raiders.

Wow.

Yes, mindless AI. AI is static, it doesn't change so once you crack it its cracked for good, now what's the fun in that? You do it once, then it's over. Besides why group up 72 men to kill something that has a chance to not reward you for anything when you can slaughter the opposing guild and claim the territory and resource nodes that your crafters will so lovingly use to make you gear?

Oh so since there were no addons in EQ doesn't mean there are not going to be addons for MO. I guarantee you if EQ came out now there would be addons all over the place.

[Isil]

The raiding concept of for example WOW , where u need big raid of 25 to 40 and raid everyday 4-5 hours and make 100 trys to kill a boss should not exist since you can lose the items u get the next day anywhere if u get killed . People wil get angry and cry all day long in the forums...the raiding in this game should be less stressant, it should only consist in a small groups of people "grinding" bigger mobs that cant be soloed or killed with small groups that drop more money you will use after to buy player crafted items ( more money in less time thats way you raid to kill them ), they should drop items also but not special items that are only boos drops , just random drops ..maybe more chance for random drops that average mobs..maybe also 1 raid mob = 1 drop , but nothing unique.

People will also fight for those raid-grinding spots ...