Server Economy...

[Victor]

Just wanted to stress the importance of a healthy server economy.

I think UO's server economy is the perfect economic MMO system to this date. Craftsmen actually crafted and sold their goods to other players either via Vendors or directly at the shops, minerals and items exchanged hands on a daily basis. Repairs were being done by players for a symbolic sum of a few coins at the Blacksmith's place etc.

I know you guys played UO, I am just reminding you. A nice healthy economy is important, where people require each others' services.

Just a wishful rant.

[Lachrymose]

i think one thing that could be done to improve the economy would be to allow only one character per account. if you can have multiple accounts, then everybody and their brother is going to have any crafter they would possibly need, which will ultimately flood the market and drop prices making it harder for pure crafters.

i think if you want to be a crafter, you shouldn't be able to just level up an alt. either you need to devote your character to being a crafter, or you need to devote one of your skills to crafting which means you would probably have to sacrifice something else (if it's even possible to do both, i don't think it is but it should be).

because i want to specialize in pvp, i personally wouldn't want to handicap my character in pvp just to pick up a craft. however, b/c we'll have multiple characters, i'll just create some alts so i won't have to pay others for their goods, i can just do everything myself. i'm sure a lot of others feel the same way, and this is why i think allowing multiple characters per server is a mistake for an economy driven game. true crafters will be swallowed up in the sea of alts and the importance of their crafts will be severely diminished.

to anyone that wants to be a pure crafter, good luck you're gonna need it.

[Victor]

I agree, Lachrymose...

That's how famous Blacksmith made a name for themselves in UO, in the beginning. It was quite fun to acually find that GM Blacksmith, provide him with ignots, see him craft your stuff at the anvil.

Likewise was it fun to visit one of those tailors, or flecters, on a regular basis, picking up goods.

[ccoa]

Well it's already been stated that you can have multiple characters per Deva (account). Perhaps the solution could be no trade between two characters that share the same Deva? Though I feel not many people will like this idea.

[veronique]

Totally agree with you all. Ccoa's solution could be a nice one.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by ccoa

Well it's already been stated that you can have multiple characters per Deva (account). Perhaps the solution could be no trade between two characters that share the same Deva? Though I feel not many people will like this idea.

Don't wanna burst your bubble ccoa... but players will just give things to their buddies or random people or even drop them on the ground to transfer items. If there's a way, players will do it. The only way to really stop it, which isn't a viable option is to either limit one character (which wont be the case) or to disable trading completely (wont happen) or to make things get destroyed when they drop on the ground (cant see that happening).

[ccoa]

Originally Posted by Rathius

Don't wanna burst your bubble ccoa... but players will just give things to their buddies or random people or even drop them on the ground to transfer items. If there's a way, players will do it. The only way to really stop it, which isn't a viable option is to either limit one character (which wont be the case) or to disable trading completely (wont happen) or to make things get destroyed when they drop on the ground (cant see that happening).

But that still promotes player interaction (except that dropping on the ground part) and is also what happens in the real economy too, people do friends favors.

Well another alternative which would probably be a highly unliked one would be limiting the skill progression in certain skills for that deva. So say your first character is a melee fighter based skill set, it would then be harder to create a magic casting based character.

[woodoo]

I want to see variety of items, player vendors and item malls. For better economy, good solution is only one char per server.

[Victor]

It would be much more fun if if the Deva linked to other servers. Thus, if you want to quickly level up a new character on a different server (due to whatever reason), it's no problems.

I really like the "one character per server", it would solve alot of trouble, people would actually care for their toon, act better, have more preasure on them making a name for themselves as an honourable player and what-not.

[holo4ever]

I hope that this game won't have "an auction house" in the traditional way. It will severely hurt the economy. But instead it should have hubs (as in towns) where everyone could trade at the _local_ (emphasis on local) market. Then, some towns will be known for their prosperous merchandise like ore and others for weapons for example.

The idea is not to centralize everything, then it would be awful. Maybe as it is in eve, so that you can see what other hubs have for sale(at a certain distance ofc) but can't buy them... more for orientation.

Sorry for giving another example from eve, but I think it has one of the best economical systems up to now. (don't know about UO, didn't play it)

Miner/Industrial(crafters) there practically control the prices. That's awesome because they can literally influence the prices, and if they have enough financial backing, they can crush the market. It's very dinamic and because what they do is extreamly important, they can spend their whole "life" in a station/town (maybe have protection in MO) and still be a valueble addition to any guild.

[cybin]

In my opion, the point is that if someone spend time to craft something he will want to have a certain price for it. Regardless wether you crafted it with your alternative character or your main one. Beside, you have to advance in skill to create certain items and it takes time. You can spend it yourself or ask another people to sell their crafted items to you. Another point is, that when I'm a blacksmith and want to create a heavy armor I need other people to do that. I don't have leather, for example. I need leather to put all things together, so someone have to sell me their leather. If I want to have an awesome armor I will want to put jewels or something in it. I don't have jewels nor do I'm able to create one. That way everything is connected to each other and you can't live without the other.

If someone makes a great deal by finding some very rare material and sells it too cheap, it's just his fault. If it's too expensive, no one will buy it.

But in consequence, a player driven economy means that nothing, and I mean nothing, can be bought at a vendor if no one crafted it before and put it there for sale. Related to this is the combat loot. If I can get a descent sword from a monster, it is ridiculous to advance in crafting. But you should get a descent material from an epic monster to let someone craft a descent sword of it.

Any other mixture will mess up the economy, because items does not appear from nowhere. ;-)

Another thing is it with the auction house. An auction house must be lokal. There is no internet or telephone available. So you have to travel around to see what people offering.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by cybin

Another thing is it with the auction house. An auction house must be lokal. There is no internet or telephone available. So you have to travel around to see what people offering.

I agree. There shouldn't be an easy way to see the prices at every market. Very unrealistic and would take away from the skills that successful a merchant would need to make profit via trade. If everyone knows where the cheapest stuff the amount of good being moved around by mechants to make a profit will drop dramatically.

[Byggin]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

i think one thing that could be done to improve the economy would be to allow only one character per account. if you can have multiple accounts, then everybody and their brother is going to have any crafter they would possibly need, which will ultimately flood the market and drop prices making it harder for pure crafters.

i think if you want to be a crafter, you shouldn't be able to just level up an alt. either you need to devote your character to being a crafter, or you need to devote one of your skills to crafting which means you would probably have to sacrifice something else (if it's even possible to do both, i don't think it is but it should be).

because i want to specialize in pvp, i personally wouldn't want to handicap my character in pvp just to pick up a craft. however, b/c we'll have multiple characters, i'll just create some alts so i won't have to pay others for their goods, i can just do everything myself. i'm sure a lot of others feel the same way, and this is why i think allowing multiple characters per server is a mistake for an economy driven game. true crafters will be swallowed up in the sea of alts and the importance of their crafts will be severely diminished.

to anyone that wants to be a pure crafter, good luck you're gonna need it.

Make crafting a deva skill, so your account choses 1 craft and all your characters can use/train it. So character A is in a good postion to craft and trains up some skill. You decide to log into character B and guildie needs something done for them, you don't need to log out you use character B.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Byggin

Make crafting a deva skill, so your account choses 1 craft and all your characters can use/train it. So character A is in a good postion to craft and trains up some skill. You decide to log into character B and guildie needs something done for them, you don't need to log out you use character B.

hmm... not a bad idea, but i'm afraid i don't think it would work. two problems i could see with this:

1) players who aren't interested in pvp and would rather be pure, all around crafters would be limited to just one craft (yes, there are some players who wish to focus primarily on crafting and not pvp)

2) limiting players to only 1 craft still wouldn't do much to stop it. whearas i may have made several crafters, one to make weapons/armor, another to make furniture, etc etc.. yes, it would limit me to just one. however, because now it's a deva skill, it's more convenient for me to level it up, since i can do it on my main character without interfering with my other skills. in this case, nearly everyone will choose at least some craft (think of WoW), so there would still be a flood of crafters in the economy.

one of the things about MO that intrigues me the most is it's rich player driven economy. i just don't think the economy will be all that "rich" when most people are going to have alts to do their crafting for them. this is what me and many others did in UO, and unless something changes, i'm afraid the same thing will happen in MO.

[mudface]

its hard to stop some thing like that of course. just some people chose to do some thing in the world and others do other things like pvp. its the name of the game as all us vet players know.if they cant do the alt crafting on one account they will get as a nother /shrug

[cybin]

You can't limit players to one crafter, because it's all skill based. If I choose to be somewhat like a blacksmithing, outfitting thief, I can be it. But everything only to a certain level. I can't master everything due to the lack of skill points. If you have an alternative char for crafting it will consume as much time to practice crafting like it will practice swordfighting.

Most people will practice fighting for pvp, adventure, exploration. But a few people will make their way as a merchant or crafter. In the easy 'levels' there will be no difference, but with the more complex items to craft, you will have to talk to this crafters to get weapons, armor and stuff, if you choose to do fighting primarily.

That's one of the most interesting points in MO. You certainly will think about, before slaying a mining blacksmith just because he is weaker than you and at the wrong place in the wrong time. People will remember that and you probably won't get any future support from them, when you need epic items for epic beasts and monsters. ^^

It's _really_ different from _any_ other MMO out there.

[Lachrymose]

i'm afraid i disagree there cybin. UO was similar to the way MO will be, at least in that you can make alt crafters to do a lot of the work for you. it's much more convenient to just hop on a blacksmith alt whenever you need another sword than it is to seek out a blacksmith and pay a pretty hefty fee for his services.

yes, it might take a little time to level my alt crafter, but it would be time well spent... much moreso than the time i would spend earning money on my pvp main only to pay a crafter to do what i could do with my own alt. give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.... there's quite a few people that think this way, and on UO, i had several crafting alts, one for weapons/armor, one for potions/bottles/kegs, etc.

oh, and mud.. sure, people might pay for a second account just so they can have an alt, and if it means that much to them, SV will profit off it, but it will still limit the number of crafters. i know i certainly would never want to pay for another account just to have a crafter alt, and i assume the majority of people would feel this way too.

[cybin]

I agree that when the prices are too expensive, people will start crafting all theirselfs. But if it's a fair amount you probably want to safe time and pay for it. Like in real life, you won't collect each part of a car to assemble one of your own because it's easier to just pay for one.

If it's too expensive, crafters will lower theirs prices I guess.

Certainly, I got a few alts too in differents MOs, but only because it's easy leveling. Just beside leveling another class I do some crafting. But if I could only concentrate on crafting rather than another class I'm not sure wether I would do that, than pay other people for doing so.

Maybe some materials are limited by 'bind on pickup'? Hm...

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by cybin

If it's too expensive, crafters will lower theirs prices I guess.

yes, cybin, but that's exactly the point. either the crafters lower their prices to avoid competition, or they keep their prices high, and they will have to lower prices anyways b/c of increase in supply. either way, the crafters sort of get screwed.

as far as BoE items.. well.... i hope you can see how that wouldn't exactly fit in MO. something about full-loot should come to mind...

[Cylox]

Originally Posted by Victor

Just wanted to stress the importance of a healthy server economy.

I think UO's server economy is the perfect economic MMO system to this date. Craftsmen actually crafted and sold their goods to other players either via Vendors or directly at the shops, minerals and items exchanged hands on a daily basis. Repairs were being done by players for a symbolic sum of a few coins at the Blacksmith's place etc.

I know you guys played UO, I am just reminding you. A nice healthy economy is important, where people require each others' services.

Just a wishful rant.

The economy in Eve is one of the best too. There is not even a NPC who sells ressources or something. The whole economy is made by the players. And that should be in MO too.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Cylox

The economy in Eve is one of the best too. There is not even a NPC who sells ressources or something. The whole economy is made by the players. And that should be in MO too.

Eh, yes all the resources have to be gathered by the players. But there are a lot of NPC regulated items on the market. But yes, it is a very good economy in my opinion. I believe it is that bit of npc regulation that helps to keep the market in check so new players aren't overwhelmed by a stupidly expensive market.

[Neek]

Make crafting extensive.

Resources need to be fought and controlled to acquire.

Crafting needs to be comparable to pvping. If it takes a heightened level of dedication to achieve the best results in crafting, then the supply will always chase demand.

[Anemos]

I personally like the idea of not being able to trade between alts, although the best way for me to boost up economy is to have only one single character per server...

There are many that will go for a crafter centric character, you 'll be suprised... at least the way I see it is when you do something do it good, if you choose to be a crafter play all the way, if you go for combat oriented character the same, maybe it's just me

[Shinzon]

The market should be easily accesible by new players; they shouldnt drop their jaw when they see the price of a "Iron Dagger". The common items should be that, common; still something to fight over in large quantaties, but conflicts should be mainly centered around the rare resources; the ones used in crafting the highest grade items.

Easy start, exponential growth of value as you climb the rarity of items.