do you need character progression?

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Traceur

some very interesting points here...

about the issue of realism - realistically we do improve with practice - but given that in most MMORPGs you start as an adult, would it be such an extreme leap of faith to suggest that the improvement our characters can make are minimal - only the player skills - or that we also loose skills equally to gaining them thus staying at an equilbrium without progression? would that be unrealistic?

about it becoming a pure FPS game without a progression system - what if it still has crafting? and building? and guilds? and quests? and wealth? and all the subtleness of a world simulator which we know MO has to offer? would the lack of a progression system alone make it into a pure action game if it still has all the other stuff?

about progression as a learning curve: isn't that the other way around? if you think about it RPGs are the only type of games where - because of character progression - the game becomes easier and less challenging as you play it. wouldn't it be easier to start off from a "maxed out character"?

Ok, so let's take an FPS, throw in Crafting, Guilds, Building, some Quests and Money.
But, because there is no Skill progression, everyone can do everything everyone else can do with the exact same outcome from day 1.
There is no "Maxed Out" because there is no progression... And because there is no progression, there is no need for any character sheet, other than Weapons/Armor/Inventory. This also makes the only differences between characters, the Gear and the Player behind the toon.
So, it'd still be an FPS, just with more interactive content... A glorified Counterstrike, if you will.

Originally Posted by Traceur

about the issue of realism - realistically we do improve with practice - but given that in most MMORPGs you start as an adult...

An adult of what age? Or are you saying that from the age of 18 to 65 people can't improve any skill(s)? So, somewhere between the ages of 16 to 18 we suddenly lose any capacity to learn anything new?

I'll grant you that Skill progression doesn't need to be in to be an RPG (Role Playing Game), but just how fun is it going to be if everyone is Role Playing the same character? I think it would take me about a day to cancel my account, if that.

For me, the draw of MO wasn't the FPS-style combat or the Full Open PvP. Those don't phase me one way or the other. It was the brief description of the skill system, though I'm still waiting for either a much more detailed description or just to see it myself. I admit that it'll be nice to have a game where the PvP has some kind of in-game world meaning, not just an e-peen PvP rank. But I'd likely only PvP to answer a challenge, to help my guild/clan take land, or to defend our land. I'm not a random PvPer, I'd much rather work on skills, mainly those that help me survive in areas to gather materials for crafting.
For me and my play style, Character Progression is one of the central factors of fun in an MMORPG. One of the many reasons I'm enjoying Ryzom so much atm. =)

[Traceur]

good points about everyone playing the same all-rounded character character, but... well you could have a balanced character sheet. meaning there's skill distribution, but no skill gain. it doesn't have to be a 100% player skill system.

[Lyllyth]

Originally Posted by Traceur

good points about everyone playing the same all-rounded character character, but... well you could have a balanced character sheet. meaning there's skill distribution, but no skill gain. it doesn't have to be a 100% player skill system.

As I said above, it's the reason I dropped WoW. I had 3 70's, almost a 4th, but all that was left for any of them was gear. I don't see gear as Character Progression, just "Tools of the Trade". So I was no longer progressing my characters and was getting bored. Leveling was the same every time, you go here for these levels, you go there for those levels, etc. So I really didn't want to continue leveling different characters, repeating the same thing over and over. But I did want to see some advancement with my character, which, once you're 70 in WoW, you have none left.

This is why I'm having fun with Ryzom. Yes, constantly working on skills is still Grinding, it's a seemingly endless grind... However, it doesn't feel the same. In Ryzom I don't feel like I'm grinding, I'm just enjoying doing things with my character; Running around exploring (it's a fairly large map), switching between melee, casting, harvest, or crafting. Fine tuning each of my abilities and spells to better suit my use at the moment. I know there are caps to each skill, but I also know it'll take years to cap them all, which puts me in no rush to do it. But each advancement I make in a skill sends me running back to the trainer, wondering what skill I'll train in this time, as I never seem to know until I peruse what's available.
Where, in WoW, 4 weeks of semi-casual grinding to hit 70 with 375 in 2 tradeskills (and yes, I still had to go to work)... I did that with a Holy Priest. Then it's just a case of waiting for the raids to happen. As we all know, PvP in WoW is a joke, it serves no purpose other than Rank.

Originally Posted by Traceur

well you could have a balanced character sheet. meaning there's skill distribution, but no skill gain.

To me, that would be the same as buying a maxed out character on Ebay.

It comes back you your original question, "Do you need Character Progression to have fun?"
In an RPG, yes, I do.

Though, all in all, I guess it depends how you approach a game. If I approach a game expecting an FPS with intent to play, I'll be wanting an FPS and will be disappointed with the game if it's heavily RPG. If I approach a game expecting an RPG and find it more to what you described above, I'd be disappointed with the game as it would lack what I see as a crucial part of RPG games.
I'm hoping MO is an RPG with FPS-style combat, but still an RPG. If it turns out that the game is more heavily FPS-style gaming, with little focus on character advancement (as in, it feels like an afterthought) then I will be disappointed and will move on. Though, I'm sure there's many on this forum that would be quite pleased, as I believe that is essentially what they are looking for, an MMOFPS with minor RPG elements.

[catmorbid]

I remember when as a kid you'd play some imagined kids play (kid larp!) and suddenly when your character got into trouble you'd invent new abilities and stuff like that, so you wouldn't lose. It was an endless loop which nearly always ended up with the participants of the play fighting over whether the one should have that ability or not.

Basically taking progression and skill away from a mmorpg would lead to that. If a game is intended to last only for short periods of time (like few hours at tops), having no character progression other than your basic accumulation of wealth and gear, can work fine. But if you play longer, that's exactly what the player is left craving for.

I wouldn't say an immediate no to a lot slower paced character progression system in which characters already start as moderately powerful, by distributing a considerable amount of skill points to start with. The actual progression would then be significantly slower, that it would take days to have any amount of progression, and for higher skill levels it could take even weeks to gain a single point. This way, the difference between a year old and a day old character wouldn't be overwhelming, but there would still be some, and most significance would be in wealth, equipment, social network, reputation between factions and stuff like that.

[minijag]

For anybody who hasn't played on a free server with max skills and stats.

I suggest you do so. There are free servers for every game, wow, eq2, lineage 2, uo, asherons call. And they are very easy to fine

More to the point, those servers with max stats are plain and simple, not any fun. Its a time vs reward sort of thing, If you haven't put in time into your character its not going to feel very rewarding when you do something with it.

[Archaaz]

Originally Posted by Lyllyth

This is why I'm having fun with Ryzom. Yes, constantly working on skills is still Grinding, it's a seemingly endless grind... However, it doesn't feel the same. In Ryzom I don't feel like I'm grinding, I'm just enjoying doing things with my character; Running around exploring (it's a fairly large map), switching between melee, casting, harvest, or crafting. Fine tuning each of my abilities and spells to better suit my use at the moment. I know there are caps to each skill, but I also know it'll take years to cap them all, which puts me in no rush to do it. But each advancement I make in a skill sends me running back to the trainer, wondering what skill I'll train in this time, as I never seem to know until I peruse what's available.

I gave Ryzom a brief go a while back, but did not have the time to really get into it. This description makes me want to try it again. This is much howUO felt for me.

[lazyasian224]

i think you need character progression, it makes you feel as if you are growing along with your character. As you begin to learn more about the world and how to do things, your character is also becoming more skilled, more adept at a variety or more masterful at a specific thing. removing progression means everyone is a jack of all trades, but a master of all trades. then its just a Fps with swords and magic.

[Vanndal]

Traceur, this is definitely a interesting thread. However we can only give opinions as to how this will truly work.

Here are mines. If you take away character progression from a rpg, then it will definitely take away one reason that some players play rpgs.

If they don't feel that they are accomplishing anything in the game in terms of increasing their character's ability to be greater then others. They lose a single aspect of the game to strive for.

Realistically speaking, we are not all the same, so therefore we will never be the same even in terms of game-style even if we were given all the exact same characters. Therefore even when given the same abilities, we will undoubtedly be different.

I definitely have to say that character progression has become one of the major aspects of rpgs, and by removing it is definitely a novel idea. It may end up both good and bad, however it's very risky at the same time since it is not a well known working idea.

No possible way to truly analyze this without actual testing.

Since the major keeping factor of players is a sense of accomplishment in the game. Though it doesn't have to be character base, it has to be something that distinguish them from others.