do you need character progression?

[Traceur]

what if MO gave your character a maxed primary skills/attributes from the start with all the secondary skills related to those primary's already enabled?

does the game needs character progression for it to be fun? do you need it in an MMORPG? what if you took all the RPG elements and skills selection and made them available right from the start as part of character customization? or what if the game was 100% player skills with no character skills in the equation at all, leaving the only "progression" in the game to be one of your personal knowledge, skills, reputation and wealth? would you still enjoy it? how would that change things for you (for better or worst)? how would that impact your play style? does it still constitute an RPG?

i'd make a poll, but i'd much rather hear people's opinions and reasoning.

[Gungrave]

Character progression is the essence of RPG's. If you take it away you will have to change the ganre of you product to "FPS, playable only on our hosted servers"

Ofc, the real game starts after your character is maxed, but usualy the process helps to separate hardcore from casual players, and its very importnat part of learning how to play you character in the given game. Its there for a reason.

[Phi]

For me taking away character progression would also take away 'my' character. Progression is the best way to live vicariously in a fantasy world. It leads to new possibilities and gives us more options. Taking away the ability to create and mold my character is pretty much exactly what you said "taking the RPG out of MMORPG" with out the RPG aspect i could just go play dark messiah multiplayer, or day of defeat. Progression also gives us a reason to pay a monthly fee.

[woodoo]

Originally Posted by Traceur

....leaving the only "progression" in the game to be one of your personal knowledge, skills, reputation and wealth? would you still enjoy it?...

Ya for me it is enjoyable. MMORPG need some changes in their antic roots. This is good idea.

[Rhygar]

Interesting thread, Traceur. You are onto something here, but I think "skilling up" would just be realistic. It definitely adds to that all-elusive feeling of immersion. You do something often, you should get better at it. The only way around this would be if 99% of in-game activities were mini-games requiring player skill. Then you could make it with no stats increasing via ingame actions, only your own personal player skill with the game.

Originally Posted by Gungrave

Ofc, the real game starts after your character is maxed, but usualy the process helps to separate hardcore from casual players, and its very importnat part of learning how to play you character in the given game. Its there for a reason.

Mmm... dangerous WoW thinking. If the "real" game only begins once you are maxed out with your skills/level or whatever then there is a fundamental flaw in the game design. Which is the case with most MMOs right now.

As I mentioned above I do think that improving your skills ingame should definitely still be there. However, technically you should be able to go anywhere and attempt anything. No restrictions 'cause you're a noob. Obviously the newer characters will most likely fail in certain situations, but it should still be possible if you group together, play very well and possibly get a bit lucky.

[Odin]

Very nice thread.

Personally I would stop playing. I need neverending progression to keep playing and playing.

It was part of the great Everquest 1 system, you had tons of alternate abilities, some really rare stuff (you can't compare it to the legendary wow items).

I think the lvl/skilling time should prepare your character for the real game and thats highend-gaming. Current MMO's (you can't call them mmoRPG's anymore), take away lots of brainusing. You shouldn't get automatically stat increases when your character is lvling up. You should get some points and decide on your own where to put them.

to sum it up:
I need a neverending progression especially when highendgaming starts otherwise I become bored very soon.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Odin

I think the lvl/skilling time should prepare your character for the real game and thats highend-gaming. Current MMO's (you can't call them mmoRPG's anymore), take away lots of brainusing. You shouldn't get automatically stat increases when your character is lvling up. You should get some points and decide on your own where to put them.

to sum it up:
I need a neverending progression especially when highendgaming starts otherwise I become bored very soon.

That's what I mean. If you are a good or bad player why must you go through hundreds of hours to get to the "real" gaming?

From the moment I start I want to play "THE" game. If I'm not so good, or can't be bothered to learn the intricacies of the game then fine I will struggle in certain areas or against certain opponents.

I'm not suggesting, of course, that you are just given everything for free when you start, but that only relates to things like housing, status etc. It's fine if those "material" things take a bit longer. As long as the game does not only revolve around the accumulation of those things. I should be able to effectively compete quite soon. I suppose the competing bit only relates to combat.

It is exactly that "level" type design that bores the hell out of me. The game should start now. Not in 6 months time after I have jumped through all the hoops. I just never make it past 3 months because by then the treadmill has worn me down and I have to ask myself "is this the best way for me to spend my time?".

[Rhygar]

Traceur, you are asking whether or not we are defining "character progression" correctly?

I think most people will say it is required. Unfortunately games like WoW have made nearly everyone believe that progression mean to level up and become stronger. That is the problem. Or not the problem, but it has become the only way to think of it.

As I said earlier I have no qualms with a game including skill increase, wealth accumulation etc, but the progression of your character could instead be focused on the success of playing the game itself (crafting, combat), accumulation of a trustworthy/infamous in-game reputation. This would of course create the situation where you have winners and losers. Not everyone will make it to the top.

That is the reason I get bored. I might not be the best gamer out there (in fact I'm far from it) but the fact that I will eventually get to the top if I just keep trying (no matter how bad I am) is a huge demotivation for me. You can just suck all the way and it won't matter. Your accomplishments mean nothing because any tit with enough patience will get there.

Your achievements gained from skill should be the focus of character progression.

[osteo]

This brings up a good point tracuer i like this thread. One thing i have to say is the game doesn't start when your maxed out. If anyone says this your wrong.

What determines when the game starts anyways?

[Ravenwoods]

Originally Posted by Traceur

what if MO gave your character a maxed primary skills/attributes from the start with all the secondary skills related to those primary's already enabled?

does the game needs character progression for it to be fun? do you need it in an MMORPG? what if you took all the RPG elements and skills selection and made them available right from the start as part of character customization? or what if the game was 100% player skills with no character skills in the equation at all, leaving the only "progression" in the game to be one of your personal knowledge, skills, reputation and wealth? would you still enjoy it? how would that change things for you (for better or worst)? how would that impact your play style? does it still constitute an RPG?

i'd make a poll, but i'd much rather hear people's opinions and reasoning.

I think some degree of character progression is required for playing witht h same type of character for years may not be really as fun.

But in my view the skill point games are the best. Level progression is pure dumb. I hate the concept 'end game' for the gam needs to be fun from get go. There is nothign wrong to be thrown in action straight away.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

That's what I mean. If you are a good or bad player why must you go through hundreds of hours to get to the "real" gaming?

From the moment I start I want to play "THE" game. If I'm not so good, or can't be bothered to learn the intricacies of the game then fine I will struggle in certain areas or against certain opponents.

Well nothing to discuss, its my playstyle and my type of "fun", without goals (like max lvl/skill, gear or beating raidboss X) I'm bored and stop playing its that simple.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Odin

Well nothing to discuss, its my playstyle and my type of "fun", without goals (like max lvl/skill, gear or beating raidboss X) I'm bored and stop playing its that simple.

Then MO most likely won't be the best game for you.

[Ravenwoods]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Then MO most likely won't be the best game for you.

I think the opposite for MO will provide a much more detailed character customisation and there will be advancing in every aspect. He should like it more.

[Zenir]

People want to get the feeling they got stronger by looking at some stats. It makes you happy when you reached after some "hard, long hours" your goal (Level up, new skill level, killed a raid and got the sword of awesomeness or whatever).

That's why all the people out there in that game raid all day long. What they want is to reach the goal so they feel happy, they did it and they feel great.

Thats why the casual gamer needs that stuff.

They say the harder the way is the better you feel in the end.

do you need character progression? Yes - because people want it.

Like Rhygar said:
If the "real" game only begins once you are maxed out with your skills/level or whatever then there is a fundamental flaw in the game design.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Zenir

People want to get the feeling they got stronger by looking at some stats. It makes you happy when you reached after some "hard, long hours" your goal (Level up, new skill level, killed a raid and got the sword of awesomeness or whatever).

That's why all the people out there in that game raid all day long. What they want is to reach the goal so they feel happy, they did it and they feel great.

Thats why the casual gamer needs that stuff.

They say the harder the way is the better you feel in the end.

do you need character progression? Yes - because people want it.

Like Rhygar said:
If the "real" game only begins once you are maxed out with your skills/level or whatever then there is a fundamental flaw in the game design.

Thanks for quoting me, but I'm not sure we agree...

I agree that people want to feel/see their progression. That is fair. Do you think it is possible to do so without level/gear centric game design?

[Zenir]

Yes but not the casual/average player, experienced it myself before.

No casual/average gamers -> no prey

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Odin

Well nothing to discuss, its my playstyle and my type of "fun", without goals (like max lvl/skill, gear or beating raidboss X) I'm bored and stop playing its that simple.

Damn it, how am I suppose to argue with "that is just my playstyle"?

I'll try though... you prefer level based games then. MO is leaning more to the open world, sandboxish type of game design. There will be a lot less hand holding and ushering you through a pre-determined playing experience. Or at least that is what I hope.

Then again your play style is the same as nearly everyone elses I think... The point with changing the meaning of character progression is that you will still have goals to achieve. But those goals will be of your own making and should define themselves naturally based on who you are and how you want to play in the game. Do you want to fight, trade, create or just roleplay? You should be able to follow your own course any way you want with no preset path consisting of quests and levels to grind through.

[catmorbid]

Interesting thread Traceur.

First of all, without the rpg elements, this wouldn't be an rpg, and I wouldn't be that interested in MO. Hence, character customization via stats and skills is integral to my rpg experience.

However, having character progression or not, is another thing. Both, I think have their ups and downs. For instance, having a fully maxed out character to start with would definitely allow you to get fully into the game right from the start, but also, if you're not familiar with the game, you might find it a bit overwhelming to start with. I mean, thinking about all the possible skill combinations and all that, many would have great difficulties trying to decide where to put their skill points into.

Character progression, while at it's current form highly unrealistic, is also an exciting thing that keeps people playing. It gives you a sense of achievement, and actually serves as a learning process when getting into the game. If the stat system were very simple, a no-progression approach could be viable, but we would be talking about a very different game. I imagine such a game would be more suitable to random gaming rather than dedicated gaming.

All in all, getting updated gear and reputation and stuff like that can also imo count as character progression. So as long as there's some way for characters (not players) to become somehow more powerful, there is character progression. Getting rid of all that would result in your average fps with zero progression.

Personally, I don't think it's about having character progression or not, but rather about how much emphasis we have on character progression. As I've understood, MO will have relatively little emphasis on it, because you can have a battle-ready and able character in just a couple of weeks. This turns the table around and reduces the importance, while still giving the sense of achievement. Games like wow have way too much emphasis on character development, because it's pretty much the only thing the game runs around. And in the end it becomes something different alltogether.

Thus: Character progression and rpg stats are (imo) integral part of rpg's, but the emphasis can be less to progression, and more to player skill. This is what I expect MO to deliver, at least in some extent.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

All in all, getting updated gear and reputation and stuff like that can also imo count as character progression. So as long as there's some way for characters (not players) to become somehow more powerful, there is character progression. Getting rid of all that would result in your average fps with zero progression.

So you feel it is central to character progression to become "physically" more
powerful?

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

So you feel it is central to character progression to become "physically" more
powerful?

Depends what you mean by "physical". Not necessarily physically more powerful, as there are different skills, and not all affect your character physically. Reputation is also not a physical progression imo, while it can give certain advantages, whereas gear certainly is physical. I'm not saying physical progression would be central, but progression overall is pretty central.

[Rhygar]

I definitely agree there should be progression in the sense of skills learnt, possibly status, wealth etc.

I just think the focus should be on your accomplishments. For example you like PvP. You want to lead some mercenary faction and become the main go-to-guy for other groups in need of some help. I, on the other hand, like crafting. I want to create and sell. None of that, "my god, need to make level 134 before I can do this or that..."

Great! We both have non-artificial goals. Ok, yes, it is not as clearly defined as in a level based MMO, but should in the long run be much more satisfying.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

Damn it, how am I suppose to argue with "that is just my playstyle"?

I'll try though... you prefer level based games then. MO is leaning more to the open world, sandboxish type of game design. There will be a lot less hand holding and ushering you through a pre-determined playing experience. Or at least that is what I hope.

Then again your play style is the same as nearly everyone elses I think... The point with changing the meaning of character progression is that you will still have goals to achieve. But those goals will be of your own making and should define themselves naturally based on who you are and how you want to play in the game. Do you want to fight, trade, create or just roleplay? You should be able to follow your own course any way you want with no preset path consisting of quests and levels to grind through.

Om...to be honest with you I can't yet say if this game is for me or not why? Simple it isn't realeased yet and I'm not a beta tester

From what I've read it sounds awesome and oldschool.

Please don't make the mistake and put me in the "wow shape". I don't want any handholding at all, I loved the freedom I had back in the days of Ultima Online, but on the other side I missed the raiding-endstuff Everquest 1 offered. So what I'm looking for, is Ultima Online's freedom and the highend/challenge factor of an Everquest 1.

My personal playstyle is build around "earning things". The harder the game, the more motivated I am =)

Maybe thats why all the new mmorpgs bored real fast.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Odin

Please don't make the mistake and put me in the "wow shape". I don't want any handholding at all, I loved the freedom I had back in the days of Ultima Online, but on the other side I missed the raiding-endstuff Everquest 1 offered. So what I'm looking for, is Ultima Online's freedom and the highend/challenge factor of an Everquest 1.

My personal playstyle is build about "earning things". The harder the game, the more motivated I am =)

In that case I don't think you'll be disappointed to be here.

I also hope that you need to earn things. And they are planning on non-repeatable quests I think. Big-bad ass demons and such that only a large group can tackle. So you will probably get the highend in some form or another.

[Visage]

Since the game is a for-profit venture, and a huge investment up front, long-term subscriber retention is the overriding goal. How to implement that is where the games differ. You cannot simply make everyone max level and say "go at it", and really it is a self-defeating concept. What is the purpose most people play MMO's for? I think it is the thrill of leveling up, meeting dangers and vanquishing other players. Game developers have to make the world interesting enough for people to pay a monthly fee and sit in front of a computer screen for hours on end. Having a charactor start out weak and grow in power is how that is accomplished. I don't think having your toon start as a baby would be all that interesting for leveling...Congratulations, you have reached level 3 and have learned the skill "potty trained".

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Ravenwoods

I think the opposite for MO will provide a much more detailed character customisation and there will be advancing in every aspect. He should like it more.

He said he finds it fun to strive towards a max level (which MO won't have) and beating X raidboss (doubt MO will be raid oriented and require players to raid X raidboss to stay competitive).