2 part question (skilling+currency)

[Jake]

Part 1,
Let's say I wanted to first focus on working on some non-combat skills (crafting, trading, etc), and I get pretty good at it.
If I start to craft new & better weapons to sell to other players, whats to stop them from just killing me and taking it, without paying anything in return?
Sure, you'd get an 'evil' penalty, but the reward may far outweigh the small punishment.
Same with the Player Owned Houses... it seems like it would be pretty easy to just kill someone and take their house key.
I guess my question is, what's to stop them? The punishment would have to outweigh the reward, to keep all-out chaos from ensuing.

Part 2,
I'm assuming some form of currency will be used in-game, to buy items from other players or NPCs. Will that currency be stored in some type of bank or Player Owned Safe?
It seems that after awhile, the currency would start to really accumulate, and people may not feel confident carrying around X amount of gold in an all-PvP world.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Jake

Part 1,
Let's say I wanted to first focus on working on some non-combat skills (crafting, trading, etc), and I get pretty good at it.
If I start to craft new & better weapons to sell to other players, whats to stop them from just killing me and taking it, without paying anything in return?
Sure, you'd get an 'evil' penalty, but the reward may far outweigh the small punishment.
Same with the Player Owned Houses... it seems like it would be pretty easy to just kill someone and take their house key.
I guess my question is, what's to stop them? The punishment would have to outweigh the reward, to keep all-out chaos from ensuing.

The devs have said that there will be some sort of "reputation" system that is affected by your actions. Thus if you keep on killing random people you will become an outcast.

Guilds or similar player groupings will be able to control areas. They will not allow random gankers to flourish as it will disrupt trade in their domain.

However, it is likely you will get killed from time to time if you travel by yourself. So be smart and don't talk to strangers unless you are carrying a big club and know how to use it!

Originally Posted by Jake

Part 2,
I'm assuming some form of currency will be used in-game, to buy items from other players or NPCs. Will that currency be stored in some type of bank or Player Owned Safe?
It seems that after awhile, the currency would start to really accumulate, and people may not feel confident carrying around X amount of gold in an all-PvP world.

I'm sure will be able to store money in your house but it will probably be safer to store it in a bank. It wouldn't be smart to carry all your gold on you.

[zekemorgan]

Originally Posted by Jake

Part 1,

Same with the Player Owned Houses... it seems like it would be pretty easy to just kill someone and take their house key.
I guess my question is, what's to stop them? The punishment would have to outweigh the reward, to keep all-out chaos from ensuing.

You know where they sleep at night

[Cye]

The devs seems to be saying alot about "It's a free world, you can kill whoever you want, but there will be penalties..."

If I've learned ANYTHING from ANY other game, it's that 95% of the population always just wants to chop someone's tits off. I truly believe that considering the possibility of a civilized majority is incredibly naive.

It takes eleven people to resist killing eachother. It takes one person to kill somebody and "start the chain."

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Cye

If I've learned ANYTHING from ANY other game, it's that 95% of the population always just wants to chop someone's tits off. I truly believe that considering the possibility of a civilized majority is incredibly naive.

It takes eleven people to resist killing eachother. It takes one person to kill somebody and "start the chain."

Hehe. That is true. It is all out PvP after all. There will definitely be a number of people that will focus on only doing that, but I really think that they will be the minority. If no other reason than that they will be more involved with their respective group undertakings (guilds) fighting other groups.

[Cye]

Not enough people will immidiately conform to a guild. Guilds are the only ones that may have some level of security. But how appealing is the idea of traveling in groups all day?

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Cye

Not enough people will immidiately conform to a guild. Guilds are the only ones that may have some level of security. But how appealing is the idea of traveling in groups all day?

Inevitably it will be chaotic in the beginning, but it will be so for everyone. Also no one would have had a chance to build up their skill levels so everyone is on a level playing field. The combat orientated guys will be as good as you with a weapon.

That is besides the point though as the "reputation" system will still be there and is the most important system in place to create a sense of responsibility for your actions. The player groups are very much secondary. If you have a low reputation there will be certain in-game consequences. That could be anything from NPCs not trading with you, other player get free shots at you or whatever.

[Cye]

My point was, unless the repuation system is incredibly severe, it will basically be complete anarchy, always. I was not concerned about "fairness", I just don't forsee anything adequately deterring the malicious players from causing nonstop greif and enjoying every second of it.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Cye

My point was, unless the repuation system is incredibly severe, it will basically be complete anarchy, always. I was not concerned about "fairness", I just don't forsee anything adequately deterring the malicious players from causing nonstop greif and enjoying every second of it.

Well then the reputation system will just have to be severe enough won't it. I think you over estimate the severity of griefing. At least half of the people are not interested in griefing. And probably a lot less than that. The others will band together against those that want to do nothing but grief.

Some one else on this forum put it well "there cannot be griefing in an open PvP world". It's not against the rules. Are you imagining thousands of individuals running around griefing each other? Firstly it won't happen like that because there will be other things to do as well. And you forget that griefers don't share some supernatural recognition. They'll end up killing each other as much as anyone else.

But if it did happen like that, well, people automatically band together with people they know or others who are like-minded and then technically you would have "wars". Which is what we want. Clan wars. Sieges. Large PvP battles. Woohoo!

Unfortunately this is not something we can tell you about. You'll have to see it for yourself.

(sorry couldn't help myself)

[zekemorgan]

Originally Posted by Rhygar

And you forget that griefers don't share some supernatural recognition.

Thats true. No youtube videos of 20 minutes of harassment because someone comes from behind them, kills them, and ends their fun...at least until they get out of the ether world.

Two things that will limit it a lot is if the guards in town are good at keeping constant killers out.

Another thing would be if the ether world where we need to respawn penalizes the killers/griefers. Its actually a great idea. They can't get back to the main world as fast because no one will rez them and their reputation keeps NPCs from being willing to aid them also. Would be pretty cool if the criminals get stuck there! What do you think about that?

EDIT: or if etherbeasts are attracted to the negative energy of the killers and keep wiping them out in the ether realm therefore preventing a respawn

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by zekemorgan

EDIT: or if etherbeasts are attracted to the negative energy of the killers and keep wiping them out in the ether realm therefore preventing a respawn

Karmic justice. I like it.

[Jake]

I didn't mean that all griefers should be penalized to the point that they can't play. It can be fun (or sometimes necessary) to have some form of 'bad guy' to go after in PvP. It brings emotion into the battles, rather than just "hey let's fight".
It can also help people team together to fight against a group of griefers, creating an actual Good vs Evil fight.


But it is true that when given the chance, most people on the internet will act like jackasses, especially when anonymity is involved.
Judging by my past experiences, everyone on the internet falls nicely into place on this diagram:





edit: and I know I'm asking for a lot, to have both severe penalties for griefers, and some flexibility for em too, but there has to be a fine balance or else PvP could really get screwed up.

[Cye]

TY Jake.

That was the general idea of my initial point. I see very few people having the self-control necessary to resist the urge to "remove head from shoulders by means of sword."

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Cye

TY Jake.

That was the general idea of my initial point. I see very few people having the self-control necessary to resist the urge to "remove head from shoulders by means of sword."

When I was playing on the AoC PvP server I only twice got ganged up on by a group of other players and once by a higher level. I ran into that higher level again later on - but then he was a bit lower than me. Killed him four or five times before he left the area/logged off. Hehe... had his name written down...

90% of the characters that I past or shared an area with did not try anything. Mostly they just grouped with you or ignored you. When there was a fight it was usually some-one of my own level that eyed me and then attacked, but it was usually quite fair fights.

The only constant griefer I saw was some guy called Humac (assassin class) that lurked in that river side village in Stygia. But he would probably only manage to kill one as then several characters grouped and attacked him until he changed instance.

The urge to grief will be higher in a sandbox where there are no or limited quests to keep you busy, but it won't go from 10% to 50%+.

[Kalafax]

it'll be pretty bad at the start i think, but it'll even out later as people get organized, guards get set, and the such. This is one reason I'll be doing as much stealthing as I can, not to gank, but just to advoid everyone so they never have a chance to attack me