First person mode

[dawnofdeath]

I like most of the MO features and it will most likely be a breath of fresh air.
But something I can't get over is that you HAVE to play in first person mode? Why not let the players decide if they want first person or third person like in Age of Conan?
I mean what's the point to spend time on creating your character looks or getting those cool/good weapons/armors or social gear etc if you can't even see it for yourself? Yeh sure other players can see it but that's not the same..
It's like in oblivion where you spent time on creating your characters appearence etc and when the game started it was like "eh okey what was that for.."

Sure some of you might like playing first person but make it optional so that people prefering third person mode may do so, please. I really can't see why it MUST be first person...

[Torgrim]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

I like most of the MO features and it will most likely be a breath of fresh air.
But something I can't get over is that you HAVE to play in first person mode? Why not let the players decide if they want first person or third person like in Age of Conan?
I mean what's the point to spend time on creating your character looks or getting those cool/good weapons/armors or social gear etc if you can't even see it for yourself? Yeh sure other players can see it but that's not the same..
It's like in oblivion where you spent time on creating your characters appearence etc and when the game started it was like "eh okey what was that for.."

Sure some of you might like playing first person but make it optional so that people prefering third person mode may do so, please. I really can't see why it MUST be first person...

If you could change to 3rd person then first person would be pointless.

Think about this how fun would a FPS game realy be if it were 3rd person?

And while playing at 3rd person that means you have eyes back on the neck.

[Drakus]

Welcome dawnofdeath to the community!

This topic has been discussed many times in the past.

I'm sorry to make an example of your post, but if you simply used the search tool you would have found the following threads.

First person in the true sense?
Idea for the ingame viewmode....
POLL: Full first-person?
it's first person but...
First person view a good thing?
How do I know if I look good with FPV?
First Person View specifics
why not FPV for mounted combat?

and more...

[dawnofdeath]

"If you could change to 3rd person then first person would be pointless.

Think about this how fun would a FPS game realy be if it were 3rd person?

And while playing at 3rd person that means you have eyes back on the neck."

Would it be pointless to be able to choose? Please do explain, if you don't like 3rd person could you not just choose to play in first person? I can still feel like I'm being the character even in 3rd person mode and fun is a matter of taste which a optional view mode would please most people.

Also thank you for welcoming me to the forums. Even though this has problebly been discussed before I could not find any recent topics about it and I thought the voice would be heard more. If everyone simply made one thread of each topic without ever bring it up again it would soon be forgotten and probebly ignored. At least so I've noticed since devs/mods etc tend to answer new threads and not really keep track of it after awhile after more people have stated their minds (since they stop replying etc).

But fine I will take use of that engine in the future.

[Blahman]

As you might have gathered your questions have been answered and argued over many times before.

The short of it is that the mere existence of a 3rd person view would put those who prefer first person view (which by the way is one of the primary tenets of the game) at a competitive disadvantage, and thus everyone who wanted to remain competitive would be forced to use 3rd person view.

As to your other question of being able to view yourself, there will no doubt be many ways and opportunities to look at your own character outside of combat -- the most obvious way would be opening up your inventory or character screen. But I could also see many other interfaces and situations providing a 3rd person view, like smithing at a forge, sitting down at a bar -- places or times where you're not likely to get any advantage from using 3rd person over 1st person. Although on the other hand even in those examples 3rd person might step on the toes of a sneaky thief type character who preys on people preoccupied in those kinds of situations. Something to think about anyways.

Beyond that, I and a few others have suggested that there be an optional 3D, paperdoll view that shows just your character, equipment, effects, animations and all, in real-time. You could put it in the corner and check yourself out in combat or whatever other situation you can think of.

[rick]

watch the interview with henrik. at around 13:30 he explains why they chose fpv.

http://www.mmoszene.de/index.php?/MM...n-Starvault-AB

[dawnofdeath]

"The short of it is that the mere existence of a 3rd person view would put those who prefer first person view (which by the way is one of the primary tenets of the game) at a competitive disadvantage, and thus everyone who wanted to remain competitive would be forced to use 3rd person view."


Not really, sure in 1st person mode you woul have a tunnel sight (which i find boring) and not be able to see your surroundings but how hard is it to turn around and look? A fix to this could also make so that you can't turn around the camera angles so much in 3rd person mode thus that advantage would be gone. (Tho being to use camera angles is nice to view the nice envirorment and character, screenshots etc etc). And also have you ever played oblivion? While you could go to 3rd mode and get a better view of your surrounding the fighting was much easier in 1st mode thus giving people with a 1st mode the advantage. So if done right I see no reason why 3rd mode would be some kind of God mode feature. Besides that's what stealth abilities are for if you want to set up an ambush.
However I would find it acceptable to have 3rd mode out of combat, but the problem is its FFA PVP which means you are pretty much always in combat. Solution to this could be that the angle goes automaticly to 1st mode when in combat (if you attack or being attacked)

And btw even if you use 3rd person mode you normally have the camera angle set straight anyway, you would be paranoid to always use the camera to look around you for possible threats.


"As to your other question of being able to view yourself, there will no doubt be many ways and opportunities to look at your own character outside of combat -- the most obvious way would be opening up your inventory or character screen. But I could also see many other interfaces and situations providing a 3rd person view, like smithing at a forge, sitting down at a bar -- places or times where you're not likely to get any advantage from using 3rd person over 1st person. Although on the other hand even in those examples 3rd person might step on the toes of a sneaky thief type character who preys on people preoccupied in those kinds of situations. Something to think about anyways."

Yes you would obviously be able to view your char in inventory but that's not the same. It's not like I'm going to have that window open all the time right? It's simply not the same. And the emote effects would be boring from a personal perspective since only the others would really see what I do.
And that idea of 3rd mode in bars etc sounds nice but that's not gonna happen if it's locked to 1st mode other than being mounted.

But the main reason for this according to the devs on those interviews is that they want people to feel like they are the characters from their perspective etc but seriously do people really lack the imagination to be able to feel your the character in 3rd mode? personally I find it more personal and believable when I'm in 3rd mode. All in all it's a matter of taste and that's why I think it should be optional. Advantages and disadvantages can surely be balanced like examples I gave earlier. The question is if devs are able to do it or if they have the energy for it. Because it CAN be done since oblivion has and also other games.

Sorry if my english is crap atm, it's 5.30am and I don't have the energy to check my spelling.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

I mean what's the point to spend time on creating your character looks or getting those cool/good weapons/armors or social gear etc if you can't even see it for yourself? Yeh sure other players can see it but that's not the same..

if you're that concerned about your looks, this might not be the game for you.

having 1st person view will allow you to actually sneak up on people. 3rd person pov lets you see behind you slightly, which just isn't realistic and disturbs the stealth system since you can't really sneak up on anyone.

like drakus said, use search next time and just post in an already created thread. if it's super old, then it's probably better to make a new one than necro it.

and yea, check out dexter's interview w/ henrik.

[Blahman]

A competitive advantage does not mean "god-mode". Hate it when people say that about 3PV. It just means that if you want to compete on a high level you need to exploit every advantage available to you.

Take a racing game example. Say you have the choice to use automatic or manual shifting. In this imaginary game, automatic shifting is always faster than manual shifting by a small amount. It's not god-mode, but it gives a competitive advantage, and when the competition is as fierce as it is in racing, and in a full PVP game like MO, it's a big deal.

The reason restrictions are put in place in racing leagues (all entered cars must fall within same range of horsepower, weight, have a manual gearbox, etc), is the same reason why 3rd person and 1st person can't coexist in a competitive, skill-based PVP game. It levels the playing field and ensures legitimacy in competition.

Finally, as a general rule, 3rd person cams are easily exploited and the programming effort and processing resources (CPU time) required to make it unexploitable far outweigh any benefit 3rd person cam has (that can't be made up for with the other options I've mentioned such as the 3d paperdoll view).

I don't know where you're coming from when you say that 3rd person can be just as immersive as 1st person, but I would guess you haven't played games like Dark Messiah of Might & Magic, STALKER, Deus Ex, Thief, System Shock, Bioshock, etc. These are all first-person action-RPGs that anyone interested in Mortal Online would do well to be familiar with in my opinion.

[Rathius]

He just doesn't seeem to want to give up on this one, lol.

Aside from the already stated, being able to see behind you, even slightly, portion... the other major advantage that 3rd person would give is the ability to look around corners without physically getting your character near said corner.

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Blahman

A competitive advantage does not mean "god-mode". Hate it when people say that about 3PV. It just means that if you want to compete on a high level you need to exploit every advantage available to you.

Geez you don't have to take it so literally. Exploits can be tweaked and fixed. And for the people saying "if 3rd mode you wont be able to sneak up from behind". Does this game not have any kind of stealth feature? I do believe I have read so in a FAQ.
And I'm not sure if this game is for me since so little information has been released yet. But do be able to see how you look is very important imo, rather than just a half sword or whatever. Sure in fps games like cod etc you only see your hands/weps and that's fine but this is a fantasy mmo, not counter strike.

Take a racing game example. Say you have the choice to use automatic or manual shifting. In this imaginary game, automatic shifting is always faster than manual shifting by a small amount. It's not god-mode, but it gives a competitive advantage, and when the competition is as fierce as it is in racing, and in a full PVP game like MO, it's a big deal.

Poor example. And besides automatic shifting is not always faster than manual. If you know how to change gear properly it will be faster than automatic if you're good enough.

The reason restrictions are put in place in racing leagues (all entered cars must fall within same range of horsepower, weight, have a manual gearbox, etc), is the same reason why 3rd person and 1st person can't coexist in a competitive, skill-based PVP game. It levels the playing field and ensures legitimacy in competition.

Can you please stop comparing a mmo to racer games? It's not doable in a good way and it's harder to take your argument seriously.


Finally, as a general rule, 3rd person cams are easily exploited and the programming effort and processing resources (CPU time) required to make it unexploitable far outweigh any benefit 3rd person cam has (that can't be made up for with the other options I've mentioned such as the 3d paperdoll view).

But think about it what is the problem if you can use 3rd mode but it automaticly goes to 1st mode when in combat (= attack or being attacked by someone/something)? That way it would be equal during combat if now 3rd mode would be so overpowered.
And are the camera angles really such a big issue if stealth abilities are avaible in this games and name tags doesnt show unless you mouse over (which means you can still hide in bushes/in the dark etc unseen)?

I don't know where you're coming from when you say that 3rd person can be just as immersive as 1st person, but I would guess you haven't played games like Dark Messiah of Might & Magic, STALKER, Deus Ex, Thief, System Shock, Bioshock, etc. These are all first-person action-RPGs that anyone interested in Mortal Online would do well to be familiar with in my opinion.

I'm from Sweden tho I fail to see how that is relevant in any way. No some of them I have not played but similar games. Yes they are single player action rpg games, not mmorpgs. Yes that is your opinion and I'm sure many agrees with you but from what I can tell, a lot of people (judging from the polls etc) wants a 3rd mode as well.
Since it's like a year away to release anything can change during development and the question is if the devs do their own thing to their liking or to the playerbase liking.

Edit: hmm my answers appears to be in the quote as well except the last one. Oh well too lazy to change it.

[Rathius]

Stealth doesn't mean invisibility. That's something entirely different.

And being 3rd person while out of combat doesn't work anyways, just in case you missed my post for some reason, 3rd person lets you look around corners, over hills, generally places you shouldn't be able to see from your character's vantage point.

[Blahman]

So you don't like the racing analogy? Oh well, I thought it was simple and got the point across... replace automatic gearbox with traction control if you are a Formula 1 fan.

Yes MO is an MMO. But it takes many cues from games like the ones I listed (some of which the developers have in the office to take inspiration from). Point is, no one's done a first person action-RPG-MMO before. MO is treading new ground here and it should be encouraged, not slammed because it's not "like WoW".

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Rathius

Stealth doesn't mean invisibility. That's something entirely different.

And being 3rd person while out of combat doesn't work anyways, just in case you missed my post for some reason, 3rd person lets you look around corners, over hills, generally places you shouldn't be able to see from your character's vantage point.

Tbh I have not found any detail information about stealth in this game yet. So you are saying that stealthing in this game does not make you invisible like in other mmos? That's news to me. And if so how does it work then?

Yes good point there, but then again why would someone exploit the camera at every corner etc if you're not simply paranoid? Most of the times when people do that in other mmos for example it's because they know someone is there, not that there COULD be someone there if you knot what I mean.
And in such situation you can just stealth and this "exploit" won't be useful.
But since you said stealthing wont make you invisible that's another thing. And hopefully you can inform me about it then?

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Blahman

So you don't like the racing analogy? Oh well, I thought it was simple and got the point across... replace automatic gearbox with traction control if you are a Formula 1 fan.

Yes MO is an MMO. But it takes many cues from games like the ones I listed (some of which the developers have in the office to take inspiration from). Point is, no one's done a first person action-RPG-MMO before. MO is treading new ground here and it should be encouraged, not slammed because it's not "like WoW".

MO seems to try out many new things and features, you make it sound it's all thanks to 1st mode :S And don't mistake me for a wow idiot, I have played many mmos and I hate WoW and wish this to be nothing like it.

[Blahman]

I'm hoping stealth will be more like the game Thief or Splinter Cell, where you use line of sight and shadows to your advantage, than say, Age of Conan where you simply crouch and turn invisible.

They have not spoken much about the stealth mechanic. In fact many game mechanics we don't know much about yet simply because they are still in the works, and they would rather wait until they know how it's going to be to comment on it, rather than speculate how it might be.

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Blahman

I'm hoping stealth will be more like the game Thief or Splinter Cell, where you use line of sight and shadows to your advantage, than say, Age of Conan where you simply crouch and turn invisible.

Yes hopefully it will. That feature is in AoC but it's not perfect. You can't stealth in AoC if it's too bright or if someone see you. It's a move to the right direction but far from perfect but it can certainly be improved as inspiration to newer mmos.

[Torgrim]

Ok thats it im getting fed up with this pos, if you want a 3rd person fine go play another game, alot of us here would love to play a fantasy MMORPG with first person, and the devs have sead it will be 1st person only exept when mounted and thats final end of story.

Do we realy need this to be like every other MMO out there , well do we???

[Manorothh]

I can say only a thing Torgrim: AMEN.

[Mpträ]

I'm just not gonna respond with a relevant post in this thread, since I LIKE KITTENZ,

z and caps intended.





Edit: I just remembered i hate kittens, please replace the original comment KITTENZ with PUPPIEZ. Since i like dogs better.

Edit2:And you might wonder why it doesn't say if i edit anything, that was because I'm using magic to cover my tracks.


Edit3: I've decided to reply with something relevant anyway.
The first person only is probably not gonna change, at all.
If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Edit4:You may also replace the word KITTENZ with DOGZ too.

[dawnofdeath]

Geez I can tell so many darkfall fanatics have come to this forum, at least I get that impression. Why is it so hard for you people to accept that there are people out there with other thoughts and liking? You may not agree with me and the devs might not change anything (which is a very high possibility), even so do I not have the right to state my opinions as well?
I mean it appears in this forum (not just this thread) that if you don't agree some of you get really mad and start flaming (not all of you of course but some).

If you don't agree with me that's 100% fine and you are most welcome to tell me your thoughts instead, but then I will be expected to be able to do the same. This is a forum after all. Cheers

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Yes good point there, but then again why would someone exploit the camera at every corner etc if you're not simply paranoid?

Because they can and will with a full loot game. Not everyone is paranoid, but it can certainly damage a game. If someone has an ambush set and someone looks around the corner with 3rd person, it's ruined. Doesn't matter if everyone is standing still being silent as can be, it's ruined. It works the other way too for people doing the ambushing.

As for the stealth stuff... I couldn't find the exact thing I heard, but here's the closest thing I can find:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

You mean in PvP, right? Stealth should be a combination of your skills as a player, combined with your character's Skills. As we can't represent every obstacle to hide behind, or every light source, there will be Stealth in the game that is somewhat "magical". Likewise, detecting something or someone that is "hidden" is not entirely up to you, as one or two Skills might help. It's all about balance though, so we will see.

Which I take as possibly a chameleon like effect. I know it's still magical, but I would image if it was Invisibility, he would have said magical. So if it's a chameleon effect, the stealther would be spoiled by a player's 3rd person view.

[Drakus]

FPV is here to stay no matter how many people protest against it. It's like debating whether or not basketball should be played with an oval ball - it's just not going to happen!

[dawnofdeath]

Well we'll know for sure when we get a straight certain answer but if stealth in this game is not invisibility I agree 3rd mode would be somewhat of an exploit. And btw has it been confirmed by the devs that there will be full loot? All I've seen is that they are thinking about it.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Well we'll know for sure when we get a straight certain answer but if stealth in this game is not invisibility I agree 3rd mode would be somewhat of an exploit. And btw has it been confirmed by the devs that there will be full loot? All I've seen is that they are thinking about it.

Yes it's been confirmed that there will be full loot.

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Drakus

FPV is here to stay no matter how many people protest against it. It's like debating whether or not basketball should be played with an oval ball - it's just not going to happen!

I have no clue about this since I don't know for sure what the devs had said, even in the interview Henrik didnt sound 100% sure himself.
Anything can happen and change in a mmo, especially during it's early development and some things will get changed or canceled or input of new ideas. What/if will change is of course unclear to us until closer to release/beta when they inform us.
I'm just saying and this isn't about FPV, just in general. I'm not totally against FPV even tho I prefer 3rd mode. Maybe we will all know a lot more when they show us some gameplay later on.