How can you eliminate the need of healing in combat? It’s simple.

[Victor]

I guess we should make a poll in this thread concerning the matter... I am not sure exactly how to formulate it however...

Q:After reading the discussion in the thread, would you enjoy combat without ranged insta-heals/healthbars if counter abilities/spells were introduced?

- Yes, I want to have more control over my character's own survival. And it would be nice for a change if the MMO genre would evolve and be more immersive as the FPS genre!

- No, I am a stereotypical MMO gamer, I like watching healthbars go up and down. And I can't possibly play a game without ranged insta-heals in combat!

Does this sound biased?

[Victor]

Okay folks, an unbiased poll is up, go vote people!

Note: Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice you selected.

[Rathius]

My understanding of this is the fact if we have plenty of available countermeasures to keep ourselves alive, we don't need some healer throwing heals on us while we fight. Which to me sounds very reasonable.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Rathius

My understanding of this is the fact if we have plenty of available countermeasures to keep ourselves alive, we don't need some healer throwing heals on us while we fight. Which to me sounds very reasonable.

That is correct. Here's a cookie.

[winkie]

I really believe this to be one of the most important threads. Having no healthbars makes pvp really interesting -no, even really thrilling. Not knowing if you stand a chance and just get a notion of how much damage you are able to inflict on your opponent by visuals or even better: sound - this is the way it should be .. i guess.
Let player characters scream louder, showing they are in pain and near death, you will get an instant thrill, thinking...omg just some more blows...instead of having your calculator by your side, doing some maths to find out how many nanoseconds you'll need to inflict 33.6657 dmg on your opponent...

Thanks for this thread

[Victor]

Originally Posted by winkie

I really believe this to be one of the most important threads. Having no healthbars makes pvp really interesting -no, even really thrilling. Not knowing if you stand a chance and just get a notion of how much damage you are able to inflict on your opponent by visuals or even better: sound - this is the way it should be .. i guess.
Let player characters scream louder, showing they are in pain and near death, you will get an instant thrill, thinking...omg just some more blows...instead of having your calculator by your side, doing some maths to find out how many nanoseconds you'll need to inflict 33.6657 dmg on your opponent...

Thanks for this thread

You're welcome, vote away, and rank the thread.

And you are completely right, we would have a completely different game-play, similar to how it worked in PnP role-playing games, not know when our opponents will be defeated.

We would have realistic PvP, in other words, where players don’t run away in panic as often, because now they can depend on their gaming skills.

And that to me, would be very exciting.

[Vanndal]

@Victor
My only question with this is.... If you can cast a healing spell with magic, why can't you do so during combat? I'm pretty sure magical healing is completely different from medical healing. If you remove healing spells in the first place, then this idea may work soundly, but... that is all conjecture, until proper tests can be done.

Also the scenario you suggested seems heavily dependent on the mage, since the warrior and the ranger basically got clobbed, while the mage obviously avoided serious injury due to his magical powers, as if he was nearly better then the warrior in the front lines in deflecting blows and better then the ranger at avoiding blows.

I'm actually all for this idea, so don't get me wrong, but how would it work if healing spells existed. Which brings us back to my main question.

Now I'll name off a few problems with healing spells in existence for this scenario or idea to work properly.

Healing spells are conjuration of magical energies that help bind and mend wounds.

Medical Healing is knowledge of the human body, to utilize certain chemicals and materials to aid in recovery, and various other surgical techniques to return the patient from possible death.

Healing spells are somewhat magical and most likely will confer a near instantaneous effect similar to it's damage dealing counter part, while medical healing are simple aid in recovery, and not actually healing the patient, but preventing the patient from taking anymore injuries, and help natural regeneration.

Since healing spells exist, it is very likely that any civilization will develop this form of healing to be combat capable.

I also agree with Lander about some things sounds good on paper but not in actual practice. However I am not saying your idea is just paper work, but rather it could be fleshed out a bit more to encompass certain things that doesn't seem to be logical. Such as the existence of healing magic, but can not be used during combat.

If you say magical healing has to go through the same things as medical skills, then I beg to differ, since damage dealing spells do not have to go through it's scientific counter part in destroying things.

If Jesus used magic to cure people from blindness (by no means am I bringing religion into this, but it was a good example :P), then it would be similar in effect that a simple touch with the magical energies would be capable of recovering the wounds of an injured individual, while casting a healing spell on a target far away from the caster would more then likely require a lot more magic power.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

My only question with this is.... If you can cast a healing spell with magic, why can't you do so during combat? I'm pretty sure magical healing is completely different from medical healing. If you remove healing spells in the first place, then this idea may work soundly, but... that is all conjecture, until proper tests can be done.

There could be many different reasons why healing wouldn't work in combat, but they'd all be guesses and limitations of the world. One such explanation could be; the caster needs complete concentration on the person, if the target is moving and jumping around they can't focus on the wounds. In this case it makes it neccessary for the wounds to be identified and their severity measured before they can healed. A touch healing spell would work off of this same concept, if the person is moving too much, the healer can't focus enough.

In other cases, where in I'm pretty sure all of the literature I've read, healing is done after or outside of battle because the healer is praying for their ability to heal. It's not just some innate magic they get to control at a whim, it's a blessing granted to the healer for their service to a god. And for those prayers to work best, they again need the concentration and focus on their target.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

My only question with this is.... If you can cast a healing spell with magic, why can't you do so during combat? I'm pretty sure magical healing is completely different from medical healing. If you remove healing spells in the first place, then this idea may work soundly, but... that is all conjecture, until proper tests can be done.

Because often when it comes to injuries you patient have to be injured before you examine the wound and remedy it. Also it helps if the patient is stationary, kind of hard to grow a new leg on a leaping frog, so to speak.

Look upon health as how much physical pain (minor cuts and bruises) a character can take before he falls down severely injured.

Naturally since this is a fantasy game, healing with magic as well as with bandages, would be done, but not as featured in MMOs you have played before, rather as described in the fantasy books you have read, and how it worked in PnP role-playing games. Meaning you dealt with the wounds after combat, not during. While fighting, you fight; a wound is a consequence you can get from fighting, which has to be dealt after the figthing. You didn't see Conan getting ranged insta-heals in the movies, neither did Frodo get ranged insta-heals in the books.

Simple logic.

[Vanndal]

Bump you guys replied too quickly to my post before I finished it, read it again. I have some simple logic against your logic.

I'll repeat this point, if magic is truly magical, and is granted by the divine, I'm pretty sure the god that granted you such magical healing abilities will know what it is you need to use it on to heal your target, while you simply just need to keep your faith.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

Bump you guys replied too quickly to my post before I finished it, read it again. I have some simple logic against your logic.

I'll repeat this point, if magic is truly magical, and is granted by the divine, I'm pretty sure the god that granted you such magical healing abilities will know what it is you need to use it on to heal your target, while you simply just need to keep your faith.

Now you are doing the same mistake, MMO developers have done for 10 years, taking a giant piss on R.E Howard and J.R.R Tolkien. Even the MUDs did it correct.

Do we need to follow this degenerated path? Why can't we once, receive a fantasy game as it was described by the fathers of the genre, as it was described in the PnP role-playing games?

By chance, do you usually play a healer in MMOs? If so do you find it perfectly realistic to have ranged insta-heals in the middle of a fight for the fantasy setting you immerse yourself in?

Do you have a problem if players take an active role in their character’s own survival, by allowing the players to use counter abilities/spells to avoid damage all together, similar to how it functions in real life or MP games such as Severance, Dark Messiah, where you can parry a sword swing, you can dodge an arrow, block magic?

I am guessing you are one of those stereotypical MMOers, that have grown accustom to healing, and believe there is nothing wrong with it, since it’s the normality in these games. If so, you should vote No in the poll.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

Bump you guys replied too quickly to my post before I finished it, read it again. I have some simple logic against your logic.

I'll repeat this point, if magic is truly magical, and is granted by the divine, I'm pretty sure the god that granted you such magical healing abilities will know what it is you need to use it on to heal your target, while you simply just need to keep your faith.

Thats why I mentioned limits of the world, not every world is the same. I was providing an explanation as to why it would be valid. To further that, some think we can't handle the message of the divine, our heads would explode with that kind of knowledge. So it's up to the receiver to be able to concentrate and filter what they need out of it.

[Rhygar]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

I'll repeat this point, if magic is truly magical, and is granted by the divine, I'm pretty sure the god that granted you such magical healing abilities will know what it is you need to use it on to heal your target, while you simply just need to keep your faith.

What? How can you be pretty sure? This is all make believe. You can justify the mechanics of healing in anyway you want.

I could argue that the god of healing gave these priests the magical gift of healing to help the sick and elderly. Surely this peaceful god would not approve of war. Thus the original intention was never for these priests to use their gifts in combat, clobbering people and assisting others to kill and main others. After all not everyone will be fighting the good fight so if ever you or your group attack someone first you should lose your abilities to heal!

The issues are do you want instant heals and could we make the system more involved and rewarding?

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Vanndal

Also the scenario you suggested seems heavily dependent on the mage, since the warrior and the ranger basically got clobbed, while the mage obviously avoided serious injury due to his magical powers, as if he was nearly better then the warrior in the front lines in deflecting blows and better then the ranger at avoiding blows.

The mage was standing in the back. He is not in close-comat at all in that scenario I painted up.

I'm actually all for this idea, so don't get me wrong, but how would it work if healing spells existed. Which brings us back to my main question.

Now I'll name off a few problems with healing spells in existence for this scenario or idea to work properly.

Healing spells are conjuration of magical energies that help bind and mend wounds.

Medical Healing is knowledge of the human body, to utilize certain chemicals and materials to aid in recovery, and various other surgical techniques to return the patient from possible death.

Healing spells are somewhat magical and most likely will confer a near instantaneous effect similar to it's damage dealing counter part, while medical healing are simple aid in recovery, and not actually healing the patient, but preventing the patient from taking anymore injuries, and help natural regeneration.

Since healing spells exist, it is very likely that any civilization will develop this form of healing to be combat capable.

I also agree with Lander about some things sounds good on paper but not in actual practice. However I am not saying your idea is just paper work, but rather it could be fleshed out a bit more to encompass certain things that doesn't seem to be logical. Such as the existence of healing magic, but can not be used during combat.

If you say magical healing has to go through the same things as medical skills, then I beg to differ, since damage dealing spells do not have to go through it's scientific counter part in destroying things.

If Jesus used magic to cure people from blindness (by no means am I bringing religion into this, but it was a good example :P), then it would be similar in effect that a simple touch with the magical energies would be capable of recovering the wounds of an injured individual, while casting a healing spell on a target far away from the caster would more then likely require a lot more magic power.

Magical healing, regular healing, would simply be done after the battle, not during as I have stated more than once now. Your patient has to be stationary, you need time to prepare the spell(chant), you need time to examine the wound, then release the magical healing/apply the bandage.

[Phi]

hell no, we need fun priest and cleric type of professions, i enjoy both being healed and doing to the healing. If u take away magical healers u might as well take away swords and mages while your at it. Just do away with spamming nuke heals constantly.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Phi

hell no, we need fun priest and cleric type of professions, i enjoy both being healed and doing to the healing. If u take away magical healers u might as well take away swords and mages while your at it. Just do away with spamming nuke heals constantly.

*slaps forehead*

You magically heal after the battle, not during.

Tell me why playing priests and a healers can't be fun, even though they are only allowed to heal defeated players and post-battle?

In a sense, priests and healers, should fall into the "crafting" group. Since it has nothing to do with battle, but rather post-battle, while the crafting group has to do with pre-battle/post-battle, equipment/repairs.

Other than that, I believe you got a "game mechanic" mixed up with Fantasy, nowhere in classical Fantasy novels, PnP role-playing games can you read about insta-ranged heals. Sadly, we can now see people writing Game Fantasy novels, but they openly admit that they base their novel on a game.

So tell me, should we erase swords and magicians in R.E Howard's novels because it had priests and healer with no ranged insta-heals? Should we erase swords and magicians from J.R.R Tolkien's novels because it had no Priests or healers with ranged insta-heals?

Your logic is flawed, and you fall under the bracket, stereotypical MMO gamer. But alas, there is nothing wrong with that! We can't all think alike, some grow accustom to things, like you, and can't see the benefits in a different new game-play for the genre, since you hold a "game mechanic" so dearly and fondly in your memory.

[auutumn]

I think that some of the poster's suggestions are good, I'm concerned about implementation for one and how the majority of users will adapt to this proposal. In real life, I probably wouldn't have time to heal unless I got to cover and here, I'm OK with the idea of breaking combat like in a 1st person shooter. For healers, perhaps providing the combatants with ways to break cover would work like a mentioned illusion spell or using a smoke grenade.

[Lachrymose]

victor, i like some of your ides, but to be honest, i don't see the need to eliminate healing from battle. you suggestions all add different elements to the skill involved in, but since healing in itself adds an element of skill provided the healing system is done right, all you're really doing is substituting healing for some fancy gimmicks (probably not the best word to use, but i want to convey the sense that they don't add much more in terms of skill than healing does).

again, this is assuming healing is done the right way. in fact, i think healing can be a great element to pvp, everyone just wants to get rid of it because when they think of in-combat healing, they picture uber insta-heals (a la WoW) and bandaging while swinging a sword (UO). this is what i have in mind when i think of "in-combat" healing: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/1...html#post45537

you did mention a couple things i think could be added, not to substitute healing, but in addition to it... i think mages should be able to have some kind of magical blocking, such as a gust of wind or maybe even some kind of energy shield or something. not only that, but i'd like to see a reflective spell, so that you could knock magic attacks back towards mages..

also, dodging is ofc a great idea, jumping backwards, sideways, or even forwards in unison with an attack. then add to that what you were talking about with teleporting.. for mages, instead of actually moving to dodge, they would teleport, not like 20 feet away, but as far as a warrior would physically dodge, only in a slightly shorter amount of time. and rather than draining stamina, a teleport dodge would drain mana.

[Phi]

i like all of his suggestions too, and it seems most them already exist or should exist along side with a class able to heal his buddies during a battle. A lot of people who have been waiting for a FPVMMORPG are priest type players too, why take away something that a lot of gamers have been waiting for?

[Rathius]

I think part of the reasoning behind removing the insta heal stuff in combat is that a lot of times it tends to degenerate into a mindless button mash because you have someone to compensate for planning. It tends to bring thoughts of WoW-style battles. "Lookit me, I are newb but have highly skilled mage to heal me, I don't need skillz!"

[Vanndal]

@Victor, well then let us begin to examine your logic.

Now you are doing the same mistake, MMO developers have done for 10 years, taking a giant piss on R.E Howard and J.R.R Tolkien. Even the MUDs did it correct.

How am I "pissing" on these two writers? I have done nothing to disrespect them in anyway, it is your personal opinion that I am disrespecting them. In MUDs they had massive healing spells that you could cast on yourself to effectively heal your whole health pool, that only requires 1 turn. While some MUDs kept it far from any form of magic and any form of casting was disabled, making it so that MUDs varies in a multitude amount of styles. If MUDs did it correctly, then the massive healing spells are and should be part of R.E Howard and J.R.R Tolkien's idea of fantasy.

Do we need to follow this degenerated path? Why can't we once, receive a fantasy game as it was described by the fathers of the genre, as it was described in the PnP role-playing games?

Before we begin calling the path of magic being exalted, and yes the reason why I say path of magic is equivalent to your degenerated path is because R.E Howard and J.R.R. Tolkien made magic extremely rare in their worlds, also the power that magic granted is not omnipotent, and infact if they are granted to them by some other being and not something they have even if you were born from different powerful mages. Even when the mages gain this magical power, they were severely limited to spells that banished evil, or simple telepathy, and various fire and lightning bolts that mainly required the aid of the environment to be completed, etc.

By chance, do you usually play a healer in MMOs? If so do you find it perfectly realistic to have ranged insta-heals in the middle of a fight for the fantasy setting you immerse yourself in?

No by far I do not play a healer in MMO's, hell I play a mage because in recent MMORPG's they have become the strongest if not the most powerful class in the game due to their ability to simply pull magic out of thin air and do damage equal to the whole health pool of an enemy within seconds. Who needs healers, tanks, and typical stereotyped roles in combat when you can slay other players in seconds without any aid other then your own. The only thing that at times even saves enemy players against being 1 shotted by me is because of a healer casting magic resistance spells on their ally and healing them to prevent me from killing them in one hit.

Do you have a problem if players take an active role in their character’s own survival, by allowing the players to use counter abilities/spells to avoid damage all together, similar to how it functions in real life or MP games such as Severance, Dark Messiah, where you can parry a sword swing, you can dodge an arrow, block magic?

Funny that you mention this, because I've been making a lot of posts on this forum about how games should be more skill based and character's should be having a more active role in their own survival. However I don't believe healing is required to be removed to make this possible. I just believe that healing should be severely weaken, to the point where it doesn't make and break the game.

I am guessing you are one of those stereotypical MMOers, that have grown accustom to healing, and believe there is nothing wrong with it, since it’s the normality in these games. If so, you should vote No in the poll.

You by saying I am a stereotypical MMOer who has grown accustom to healing and believe there is nothing wrong, you have already stereotyped others.

Logically speaking, any form of magic is illogical to begin with, since it does not exist in real life as far as our current knowledge allows us to believe so. Therefore magic in general is a mystical power that can not be explained by our logic, therefore over the pass century since the birth of fantasy, magic in itself has evolved massively to encompass magical healing spells, to meteor dropping armageddons. In many different religion that believes in divine intervention that predates the sword and sorcery model, gods were capable of granting humans supernatural powers, and one of them was prophecy and healing. Medea in ancient greek mythology was capable of foreseeing the future, and place various beneficial and non-beneficial magical effects on other people by manipulation of the natural elements, with a variety of weird reagents.

If you say that R.E Howard and J.R.R. Tolkien are the fathers of fantasy, I'd beg to differ and say that the idea is just something they more modernly evolved to re-propogate the beauty of the supernatural.

-----
Bare with me, for this post is going to be long :P
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Also magic created by R.E Howard and J.R.R. Tokien did not require any form of concentration. Thoth-Amon in R.E Howard's stories required no concentration at time to cause the water under the ground to erupt, turning all the soil into a quicksand like mud. Gandalf in J.R.R. Tokien's book required no concentration to blast forth with his eminent magical energies, and majority of the spells he cast does not even require chanting, nor does any of Gandalf spells require reagents other then a medium to cast it (staff being a very popular medium after J.R.R. Tokien made it so that the mages can't cast without it).

@Rathius and Rhygar, Your logic is a lot more clear then Victor's. I do believe you are correct in that it should require concentration to manifest magical energies unlike the popular fantasy books that require none at all.

However, if I am correct there is such a thing as combat medic in our modern times. They run into the fray of combat to aid and help prevent death to their comrades, of course majority of time the time, they don't succeed, but from time to time when minor first aid is required and a broken bone or a bullet wound to a non-vital organs area can be aided as well. Some combat medics run into combat only to get killed, while others perform their role and survive. It does take concentration, but it seems not combat impossible to be able to run into the fray and heal your allies. In video games it is hard to imitate maiming and various other real life effects, such as death, while they also have this mystical power to generate magic out of thin air. It is hard to say that magical healing is not possible, since logically speaking, it doesn't make sense to begin with. The only knowledge we have about healing magic is from legends and mythologies and various other fantasy stories. Even then they are all conjectures, since there are no way to prove any of them. Therefore Rhygar's explanation to why combat healing should not be possible is also just as invalid as mines is, and neither of us is correct in why it can be and can not be possible. Except it is still a debatable issue, with more reasons to why it can be used for combat healing, then why it can not be used for combat healing.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Rathius

I think part of the reasoning behind removing the insta heal stuff in combat is that a lot of times it tends to degenerate into a mindless button mash because you have someone to compensate for planning. It tends to bring thoughts of WoW-style battles. "Lookit me, I are newb but have highly skilled mage to heal me, I don't need skillz!"

that's what everyone seems to think.... but it won't be a mindless button mash like WoW. if heals can be done from ranged (i don't really think they should be though) you still have to aim them... and if you miss, you may even heal an enemy by mistake. if heals are touch based, you have to be right next to your ally to heal them, which means they can't be running around a lot while you're trying to heal them. this isn't button mashing.. it requires concentration and skill.

[Phi]

Too much healing can defiantly hurt PvP. Healing should be governed in a way that allows it to feel natural and remain strategically effective while eliminating abusive and boring mechanics like WOW

[Stump]