How can you eliminate the need of healing in combat? It’s simple.

[Victor]

How can you eliminate the need of healing in combat? It’s simple.

If the basic premises for healing are to recover health to pro-long fights, then let health not be so easily reduced. How can this be solved in a simple way?

EDIT: Just a reminder, if we eliminate the need of in-combat healing, we also eliminate the need of healthbars, since health is not the most important in a fight, reading your opponent and avoiding damage is, every foe that is standing up is a potential threat, no matter how much health he has, as is should be. In other words, we get a much more immersive game.

Now health can be displayed as splat decals on your opponent, displaying roughly the status he is in, visually for you. The notion of knowing exact how much health your opponent has left is folly. Not even the GMs told us in the PnP session how much damage the boss could take./EDIT

Introducing Counter Spells/Abilities For an Action Online RPG

Allow the mage to cast the spell stoneskin, instead of draining health it would drain mana. This would only be used by a mage that really needs it; he can’t expect to cast much magic after this one.
1 second cast.

Allow the mage to teleport quickly x meter away from his original spot, to where his crosshair was pointed, leaving just a cloud of smoke.
1 second cast.

Allow the mage to cast an illusion spell, there will suddenly be another identical mage, 3 mirages can be maintained at the same time. The opponent is forced to kill/dispel the lesser illusions with an attack or dispel spell until he finds the right mage. The mirage would fade away once used up.
1 second cast per mirage.

Allow the mage to cast an absorb energy spell, thus when someone cast magic on them, and they trigger this counter spell before the magic hits them they will absorb the energy and regain mana.
1 second cast.

Allow the mage to cast deflect magic. The mage catches the incoming magic projectile, then molds it as h and release it back.
1 second cast.

Allow the mage to cast deflect projectiles spell, a vortex of wind protects the mage around him, deflecting the projectiles.
1 second cast, consumes mana until the mage ends it, stops working if the mage moves.

Allow the mage to cast a gust of wind, knocking back his opponent in front of him to the ground. No damage caused to the opponent. It will buy some time for the mage to either escape or try a larger damaging spell or run forward and hit on him with his melee weapon. Opponent has a chance of resisting the knockback effect.
Instant cast - moderate mana consumption.

Allow the mage to hold his opponent trapped in a small whirlwind, each second he continues this will drain his mana. This is merely for disorientating the opponent and buying the mage some time, the mage needs to keep his target in the crosshair, so he can position himself somewhere else either by strafing around his target or backing away. No damaged caused to the opponent, and no one else can attack the opponent due to the whirlwind. The opponent can dispel the whirlwind or use brute strength to penetrate it.
1 second cast, consumes mana until the mage ends it.

Allow the mage to cast a blinding spell, which will blind and disorientate the opponent for x amount of time, buying the mage some time to prepare a larger spell or escape the scene. Opponent has a chance of resisting the spell – no damage caused to the victim.
2 second cast.

Allow the mage to use weapons in close combat, and allow them to parry and dodge blows. Picture Gandalf.

Allow the player to use his shield/weapon to deflect frontal incoming blows and projectiles/magic projectiles or dodge them (success is dependant on your character’s parry & dodge skill), the Player will simply hold down right mouse button (or a key) as in Dark Messiah/Mount & Blade/Severance to parry/deflect incoming attacks/projectiles, and another key to dodge, or strafe (double tap to the sides).

If active blocking is not allowed by the Network, or causes problems to it, make it so you can counter incoming blows/projectiles, by triggering the shield/parry as a skill/spell/weapon swing, likewise with dodging.

So when will a fight ever end if this is implemented? Simply, when you read your opponent wrong or start to make mistakes, or use up your stamina/mana wrong. You want to cause damage, once you try with the more time consuming attacks, you also open up your defences and can’t trigger the quick counter spells/abilities if they attack you quickly.

Side-note, if you are a mage you wouldn’t want to cast larger spells in close-combat, you would rather teleport away, blind or trick your foe with an illusion, then cast that big one. A swing would interrupt your casting, and you wouldn’t be able to parry/dodge it since you are in the middle of casting a more time consuming spell.

A dodge would cost stamina, so would a block/parry, while a counter spell cost mana + stamina. It’s important to tie mana into the stamina, it should drain the body as well as the mind to meddle with the arcane arts, otherwise it wouldn’t be balanced. Meaning we will always have a mage sprint away.

Summary

It becomes essential to read your opponent, and if two players encounter each other, be that a mage vs a mage, or a warrior vs mage, mage vs a ranged. You would watch his actions very carefully, counter them, or try to cause damage onto him when you feel you got the upper hand. Watching your opponents’ actions will be the top priority and two good players could be combating it out for a long time, unless someone else joins in. Also health becomes secondary; as long as one of them is still standing they are a possible threat, since your attacks does not mean automatic dealt damage since he can counter/avoid them, reducing it to zero damage.
So in other words, fights would last as long as the players still got mana/stamina, or until one has made too many mistakes and suffered too much damage.

Healing as in a 'Post-battle Phase'

Now all of a sudden, we have healing as it is described in fantasy books. They magically patch up each other post-battle, nice ritualistic 3-4 seconds chants could be visually displayed for the players, where healers work together to speed up the healing process after the smoke of battle has faded.

This also could be innovated, bringing in game-play as featured in games like ‘Alone in the Dark’, where you visually see and treat your own injuries in first person-view.

That’s another topic however, which I also have some suggestions for; nonetheless, this was to offer a solution to eliminate the necessity of healing to pro-long the excitement of combat, I believe this above suggested could be legitimate.

Discuss and contribute. And remember, Mortal Online will not be like WoW, EQ, AoC, so keep that in mind, while replying.

[Landor]

I don't really like the sound of this. Due to the fact it gives mages way more power over say a swordsman.

And it would mean that people would want to be just mages and nothing as due to the fact they can last longer in fights. So they would become the new tanks of the battlefield. But who has heard of a person that bases their life on mage being able to stand that long in a fight.

Also you got to remember that there will be people that will be wanting to play a healing character. Which having these things takes away stuff meant for them to play with.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Landor

I don't really like the sound of this. Due to the fact it gives mages way more power over say a swordsman.

And it would mean that people would want to be just mages and nothing as due to the fact they can last longer in fights. So they would become the new tanks of the battlefield. But who has heard of a person that bases their life on mage being able to stand that long in a fight.

Also you got to remember that there will be people that will be wanting to play a healing character. Which having these things takes away stuff meant for them to play with.

Naturally, you assume too much.

There are things called Mana/Stamina that limits how many counter spells you can cast during a fight.

You can still play a healing character. You won't just heal during the fights, rather after, patching up wounds and invoke some divinity to restore that lost limb on that fella over there and there.

[Stump]

Nice, Victor. Rly great Ideas. Glad to have people who actually thinks HOW to make something in the game.
I would comment more, but my English knowledge is limited ;(

Landor: If someone want to play healing character, then I think he should be able to do it. It should take player skill too, not just character healing skill, so devs have to make something different. And it should be possible to heal that guy in combat, but I think the healer must be freaking skilled, so he could hold his cursor on that body part and do some healing.
And I agree with you, that mage should be not too overpowered.

I think, in combat, there should be not the healing in battle, but preparation for battle, or at least verry limited healing in combat.

[Zigkirby]

And of course, Landor, being that there are different schools of magic, different utilities would fall under different schools.

Nice posts Victor.

[Visage]

You have to make battles last long enough that healers don't really factor in, but in reality, the game will end up being groups that need a healer....

[Pudd]

I definitely agree with you that healing should be post-battle, perhaps in a mini-game instead of simply fixing your cursor over a body part and healing it (where's the skill in that?). This will sway people into thinking in terms of not being strictly one class, but having a little bit of knowledge of everything, which gives you the full experience of the game.

some things you suggested as spells i think could cause mages to be too powerful.

"Allow the mage to cast an illusion spell, there will suddenly be another identical mage, 3 mirages can be maintained at the same time. The opponent is forced to kill/dispel the lesser illusions with an attack or dispel spell until he finds the right mage. The mirage would fade away once used up."

This could mean up to 3 times the time to kill the mage? it's basically an automatic win for the mage if his opponent guesses wrong.

"Allow the mage to cast a blinding spell, which will blind and disorientate the opponent for x amount of time, buying the mage some time to prepare a larger spell or escape the scene. Opponent has a chance of resisting the spell – no damage caused to the victim.
2 second cast."

This could turn the fight into a systematic mage blinds opponent, attacks, blinds, attacks, etc. the only way i could see it not doing this would be if the opponent was blinded for only a small fraction of a second.

"Allow the mage to teleport quickly x meter away from his original spot, to where his crosshair was pointed, leaving just a cloud of smoke.
1 second cast."

this would create a problem similar to what i explained with the last quote unless the mage could only teleport a short distance, say around 5 feet.
Also, it would be kind of cheap if everytime a mage was about to die, he just teleported 500 feet away to saftey.

"Allow the mage to cast deflect magic. The mage catches the incoming magic projectile, then molds it as h and release it back.
1 second cast."

I think this would be better if it was more of a reactionary thing. Instead of waiting 1 second to shield yourself from an arrow, the spell should be instantaneous, but only work if you cast it within the .1 second between the arrow leaving the bow and hitting your body.

If it did take 1 second to cast, what would be the point? the arrow you blocked would just be replaced by another arrow a second latter, and eventually you would just run out of mana.

"Allow the mage to cast an absorb energy spell, thus when someone cast magic on them, and they trigger this counter spell before the magic hits them they will absorb the energy and regain mana.
1 second cast."

same thing as above w/ the arrow deflecting spell.

"Opponent has a chance of resisting the spell."
I think instead of leaving it up to chance whether or not the spell is resisted, there should be a skill to do this. What comes to mind is the book Eragon - a more experienced (wizard?) would be able to protect their mind from a lesser wizard's influence. Also, fatigue (or mana) should play a role in whether the spell is blocked or not. So it would roughly look like:
If PlayerX.MindProtectionSkill - PlayerX.Stanima > PlayerY.MindAttackSkill - PlayerY.Stanima Then playerY's spell is blocked.

This would only work for spells that attempt to alter the player's body's state (i.e blindness, paralysis), and NOT every spell.

i dont know, maybe this will cause the better mage to have too much of an advantage though.

"Allow the mage to cast the spell stoneskin, instead of draining health it would drain mana. This would only be used by a mage that really needs it; he can’t expect to cast much magic after this one."

i don't get what you're saying here. stoneskin, like increase the amount of hits that can be taken?


At first i thought these ideas weren't good, but i guess it's just because i haven't seen them before. After looking at them a second time, they make a lot more sense.

[Phi]

i really like the ideas i think they would work well. I do how ever love healing in PvP, its the main reason why i choose a healing class. If healing is saved for post battles then what are clerics and priests supposed to do when the fight is happening, warm the benches? No fun, we'd be missing all the great action.

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Phi

i really like the ideas i think they would work well. I do how ever love healing in PvP, its the main reason why i choose a healing class. If healing is saved for post battles then what are clerics and priests supposed to do when the fight is happening, warm the benches? No fun, we'd be missing all the great action.

I second this.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Phi

i really like the ideas i think they would work well. I do how ever love healing in PvP, its the main reason why i choose a healing class. If healing is saved for post battles then what are clerics and priests supposed to do when the fight is happening, warm the benches? No fun, we'd be missing all the great action.

Healing would still be in the game, however, a post-battle phase.

Also, I believe you got healing wrong in a skill-based game, since healers are not limited to just healing, neither is healing restricted to a class. In other words a healer would not be missing any action, they would take part of it, take an active part in the actual fighting.

Now, whether they want to fight or not is up to them, However, keeping the injured players alive and saving their lives is still essential, this just don't happen during the fight, rather after your buddy has fallen down to the ground, bleeding to death, then you can run forward and patch him up, be that with magic or first-aid skills with bandages, so in this sense it's not post-battle, but it will be dangerous for you to save your buddy, since you can be attacked or your healing can be interrupted.

According to Mats, there will be a defeated status for out characters, and minor/severe wounds to treat, meaning once you reach 0% health, your character is defeated, not automatically dead. If then your opponent wants to kill you right away, if he got the time, he can deliver the death-blow.

Once you have acknowledged that healing can't be cast on a player that is in full swing with his weapons, running around like a rabbit, in the middle of a fight so to speak. Rather healing is done on an injured player that has fallen, we as a MMO gamers can truly experience exciting game-play.

What I want to eliminate is the unfairness of insta-heals, which happens more than once while playing UO, you were in a full battle with two opponents, you have them both down to 20% health, all of a sudden a third opponent appears, and cast ranged insta-healing on the two other opponents.

This is highly unwanted, unfair, and not realistic fantasy one iota.
Developers keep doing the same mistake over and over again, concerning pro-longing fights; when they can simply pro-long fights if they allow counter spells/abilities, thus putting the survival of a character in the hands of the player allowing them to avoid the damage all together, rather than putting the survival in the hands of insta-healing.

Originally Posted by Pudd

I definitely agree with you that healing should be post-battle, perhaps in a mini-game instead of simply fixing your cursor over a body part and healing it (where's the skill in that?). This will sway people into thinking in terms of not being strictly one class, but having a little bit of knowledge of everything, which gives you the full experience of the game.

That’s what I am aiming for. Depending on how good you know your opponents actions, will also determine the outcome, since it all comes down to reading your opponent correct and react accordingly, for your own survival.

some things you suggested as spells i think could cause mages to be too powerful.

Depends, on how you look upon it. I see clearly you look upon it differently than me.

"Allow the mage to cast an illusion spell, there will suddenly be another identical mage, 3 mirages can be maintained at the same time. The opponent is forced to kill/dispel the lesser illusions with an attack or dispel spell until he finds the right mage. The mirage would fade away once used up."

This could mean up to 3 times the time to kill the mage? it's basically an automatic win for the mage if his opponent guesses wrong.

All you need to do is to swing at it, to dispel it, or walk through it… it’s a defence mechanism for the caster, that will buy him some precious time, to either relocate, via teleport spell, or cast a more time consuming spell.

"Allow the mage to cast a blinding spell, which will blind and disorientate the opponent for x amount of time, buying the mage some time to prepare a larger spell or escape the scene. Opponent has a chance of resisting the spell – no damage caused to the victim.
2 second cast."

This could turn the fight into a systematic mage blinds opponent, attacks, blinds, attacks, etc. the only way i could see it not doing this would be if the opponent was blinded for only a small fraction of a second.

Naturally, this would not be a viable tactic, since A) It’s 2 second cast, can easily be interrupted B) Eventually the opponent resist it, or blocks the magic with his shield, or dodges it. C) A mage would counter it with either absorb magic, deflect magic.

"Allow the mage to teleport quickly x meter away from his original spot, to where his crosshair was pointed, leaving just a cloud of smoke.
1 second cast."

this would create a problem similar to what i explained with the last quote unless the mage could only teleport a short distance, say around 5 feet.
Also, it would be kind of cheap if everytime a mage was about to die, he just teleported 500 feet away to saftey.

X meters, means a few yards, a short distance it is. It’s a defence mechanism for the caster; naturally it will cost mana, and also disorientate the mage for a second or two. Since he might be staring into a wall, tree, whatever, and needs to turn around and face his opponent again. Now if the opponent is quick, he might be charging the mage already.

"Allow the mage to cast deflect magic. The mage catches the incoming magic projectile, then molds it as h and release it back.
1 second cast."

I think this would be better if it was more of a reactionary thing. Instead of waiting 1 second to shield yourself from an arrow, the spell should be instantaneous, but only work if you cast it within the .1 second between the arrow leaving the bow and hitting your body.

If it did take 1 second to cast, what would be the point? the arrow you blocked would just be replaced by another arrow a second latter, and eventually you would just run out of mana.

Since it’s essential to read your opponent, to predict your opponent’s next move so to speak. I see 1 second casting fast enough. Once the mage sees his opponent preparing a lager more time consuming spell, he casts deflect or absorb magic, or once he sees his opponent reach for that arrow in the quiver, he casts deflect arrows/projectiles.
Naturally, this have to be tested.

"Allow the mage to cast an absorb energy spell, thus when someone cast magic on them, and they trigger this counter spell before the magic hits them they will absorb the energy and regain mana.
1 second cast."

same thing as above w/ the arrow deflecting spell.

See above.

"Opponent has a chance of resisting the spell."
I think instead of leaving it up to chance whether or not the spell is resisted, there should be a skill to do this. What comes to mind is the book Eragon - a more experienced (wizard?) would be able to protect their mind from a lesser wizard's influence. Also, fatigue (or mana) should play a role in whether the spell is blocked or not. So it would roughly look like:
If PlayerX.MindProtectionSkill - PlayerX.Stanima > PlayerY.MindAttackSkill - PlayerY.Stanima Then playerY's spell is blocked.

This would only work for spells that attempt to alter the player's body's state (i.e blindness, paralysis), and NOT every spell.

i dont know, maybe this will cause the better mage to have too much of an advantage though.

In UO you had a skill called “Magic Resistance”, which determined if your character could resist the magic. Naturally, I suggested, that you should be able to block, dodge magic too. Which puts this in the hands of the player yet again.

"Allow the mage to cast the spell stoneskin, instead of draining health it would drain mana. This would only be used by a mage that really needs it; he can’t expect to cast much magic after this one."

i don't get what you're saying here. stoneskin, like increase the amount of hits that can be taken?

Exactly, each hit that successfully strikes the mage would consume mana instead of health. Naturally, this would only be used when the mage is ganked. He would then cast this defensive spell, which allows him to survive a few hits before it actually reduces his health, buying valuable time to either await help, or try to escape the scene.

At first i thought these ideas weren't good, but i guess it's just because i haven't seen them before. After looking at them a second time, they make a lot more sense.

Takes some time to be on the same page, I reckon, to have the same mind-set.

[dawnofdeath]

So tell me this, you don't want healing during combat only after combat. How are we suppose to survive raid bosses etc for example? 3 hits and we are dead

[Phi]

ah i see Victor, all though i think i'm still more into the preventative maintenance style of healing

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Phi

ah i see Victor, all though i think i'm still more into the preventative maintenance style of healing

So you want your own survival being dependant on someone else? Disregarding that such insta-heals are unfair in combat in the first place, because it has nothing to do with player skills, when a third combatant enters and heals one of the players that are in the duel.

I am merely suggesting that each player will keep their own toon alive, depending on how they read and react to the opponent's actions. Once they have failed with that, they are dependant on someone else, because in that moment, they need help.

I have a hard time understanding why players are so hell-bent on healing in combat, why do they refuse the genre to evolve?

Why linger in the past when the future is so much brighter?

[dawnofdeath]

Because what you are suggesting may sound good in paper, it would never work practical in a mmo. Constructive ideas are good but you have to really think it through if it's even possible to begin with and also its downsides and sideaffects

[Victor]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

So tell me this, you don't want healing during combat only after combat. How are we suppose to survive raid bosses etc for example? 3 hits and we are dead

Simply, by allowing us to do the things I suggested...

Allow us to avoid damage all together, either with spells, dodges, blocks, parrying with our weapons.

Once the larger monster has successfully, tricked you or when you have unsuccessfully avoided the attacks, and struck you three times you are defeated.

Naturally, a larger monster would endure a lot of pain; this is how the game-play could be played out.

Suggested Game-Play
A warrior, a mage and a ranger enter the cave, and encounter a smaller dragon.

The warrior runs forward into close combat, blocks, parries and dodges the attacks, while hitting the dragon.

The mage stands in the back preparing larger spells, and the ranger fire away his arrows.

The dragon suddenly breath out fire, the mage stops his preparation of the larger spell, and quickly cast absorb energy while the ranger dodges away to safety, the warrior curls up behind his shield.

The melee fight continues, and the dragon successfully strikes the warrior a third time, the warrior falls to the ground, bleeding heavy. The mage cast an illusion spell, lures the dragon to chase him and his illusions, then quickly he turns around and teleports to the warrior, applies some first-aid bandages to the warrior, also invoke some magical healing to help the warrior to regain his strength faster.

The fight continues, the warrior is up and fighting again, but suddenly the dragon tackles the warrior to the ground and charges the ranger, the ranger dodged out to safety, but the dragon successfully knocks the ranger down with his tail quickly followed by two attacks, and defeats the ranger.

The mage now unleash his powerful spell that has taken some time to prepare, and the dragon, stops in his path he is defeated, a gaping wound is visually seen between his scales, his roar echoes in the entire cave, the warrior hastens forward blocks with his shield the last remaining desperate attacks by the creature and delivers the death-blow, burying his sword deep between the opening in the scales. The dragon falls down dead.

Both the mage and the warrior, run to the ranger, stop his bleeding, the warrior applies some basic bandages, while the mage invokes some magical healing. After that, they tend to their own cuts and bruises.

Compare this above to generic MMO game-play.

Warrior stands stationary and hit the dragon, while the mage cast healing upon healing on the warrior and the ranger and himself. Because they can’t avoid the damage, they just stand there still, let the dragon roast them, hit them, without being able to avoid it by using counter abilities/spells.

[dawnofdeath]

Like I said, sounds good on paper but I doupt it would work practical. Sounds more like a movie scene than a game battle to me. Nice thought though

[Victor]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Like I said, sounds good on paper but I doupt it would work practical. Sounds more like a movie scene than a game battle to me. Nice thought though

Works fine in old games like Severance: Blade of Darkness.

[Stump]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

Like I said, sounds good on paper but I doupt it would work practical. Sounds more like a movie scene than a game battle to me. Nice thought though

We will not know, if we are not going to try.
I can already imagine that dragon steps on you and you "block his attack" with a shield. Lol

Btw, Henrik already said that if that dragon steps on you - you are dead, If he makes a fire breath on you - you are dead. That's what I call an epic monster!

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Stump

We will not know, if we are not going to try.
I can already imagine that dragon steps on you and you "block his attack" with a shield. Lol

Btw, Henrik already said that if that dragon steps on you - you are dead, If he makes a fire breath on you - you are dead. That's what I call an epic monster!

We? We are not making the game, they are. My point is I think it would be very hard to program it right in a mmo. Heck I'm no programmer myself but I can imagine. If it were possible I'm pretty sure they would make something similar though.

Yeah but I reckon he was talking about the legendary monsters like that dragon on the teaser that wont respawn and are nearly impossible to kill. Would make sense to die easily against them.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

We? We are not making the game, they are. My point is I think it would be very hard to program it right in a mmo. Heck I'm no programmer myself but I can imagine. If it were possible I'm pretty sure they would make something similar though.

Yeah but I reckon he was talking about the legendary monsters like that dragon on the teaser that wont respawn and are nearly impossible to kill. Would make sense to die easily against them.

It's not a matter of programming, that's the easy part. It's a matter if it is possible with the Network solution they got, they aquired this Network solution from Epic games in China. And it can do wonders.

What we are discussing here, is implementing features/game-play that can be found in other games, like Severance: Blade of Darkness, Dark Messiah, etc. and we are now entering an area, where such game-play can make its way into MMO Action RPGs.

[Stump]

Originally Posted by dawnofdeath

We? We are not making the game, they are. My point is I think it would be very hard to program it right in a mmo. Heck I'm no programmer myself but I can imagine. If it were possible I'm pretty sure they would make something similar though.

Yeah but I reckon he was talking about the legendary monsters like that dragon on the teaser that wont respawn and are nearly impossible to kill. Would make sense to die easily against them.

Srry, thats the Lithuanian speaking style.
And yes, he talked about that dragon from teaser. He said that they have tried to kill him, but failed

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Stump

Srry, thats the Lithuanian speaking style.
And yes, he talked about that dragon from teaser. He said that they have tried to kill him, but failed

Hehe if a handful of nearly immortal GMs can't kill it I guess it will take a pretty large guild and time to slay that forsaken beast But hey, at least we would always have a goal right Imagine the bragging rights of slaying such a creature Oo