Multi character server complaint w/Bacon.

[Zealot]

I don't think that is what he was asking for.

The reason they gave for having multiple characters is that they wanted to level the playing field with the people who buy multiple accounts.

I really doubt that's the reason, I feel its more along the lines of them not wanting the game to fail.

[Bigg]

Originally Posted by Aragon

SV have made their mind up, they will have have a MCS system with DEVA, actually it's one of their core features, and im very glad they're not listening too the game breaker mafia that want too change the game too something it wasn't ment to be.

I would just like to comment on this a bit with a early quote from Mats. Its not this quote necessarily that drives people to argue against this, its that this idea (Multiple Character Server) is just a BAD idea as we know it.

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Regarding multiple characters, I'm sure most players would like to have other builds (and histories) at their hands. You might choose between a mage or a warrior-build, for instance. Or between the dark-hearted thief or the good priest. (God, I hate those generalizations, but just so you know what I'm getting at). Or between races.
You will still have to invest a lot of time in them - but you can do so without completely retraining/ruining your other character.

I know there are many good arguments against multiple-characters, and I would say I know them all by heart. It's not that I don't agree.
But, unless you or anyone can present a realistic and good solution on how to avoid multiple accounts per player that:
1. Lets you have multiple characters, doing all that "bad" stuff anyway (Spying, murderers, trolls etc)
2. Gives the above advantage only to people affording to pay for it

..I much rather count on, and base the game and its balance on several characters per account. That is to say, even reluctantly welcome it in the game, by having a Deva to lessen the work of having an alt.

Of course, that means more spies, more murderers and more trolls, but in my book, the two foremost can actually bring something to the game - if you know they are there and know that you have to look out for them. Unless you have to buy them at the cost of an additional account.

[popsicledeath]

Originally Posted by Caolite

By your definition there was never nor will there ever be a sandbox game. Your logic is complete failure here. Yet another VG expert that really doesn't know much about the game. Faction based play for one was only on 2 servers, it did not define the game as a whole. I was never restricted from going anywhere even from level 1, you on the other hand might have had some issues with that, sorry to hear about your lack of ability.

Far as saying VG was linear and you had to do this and that to go somewhere or do something is absolutely wrong. There were a few quest lines for things with prequisites, but that was the excpetion and not the norm. APW raiding minus the bugs in VG was absolutely the most challenging and fun I have had in any raid type environment. Sorry you didn't get to experience that, because all your complaints meant you were on Varking or Fregnrot which were gone before APW was implemented into the game.

So with clearing up your lack of VG knowledge, your personal deffinition of sandbox has never nor will it ever exist. Every game you pick a race and have a starting point and have to do things in order to do other things. You sure won't spawn into MO and go kill the uber dragon king within 5 minutes of starting to play, you are going to have to train skills, harvest, craft and get better gear in order to survive the fight, oh wait, everything you said that made VG not a sandbox game, DOH!

I love how guys like you think your deffinition of what a sandbox game is the only correct deffinition in the world and the rest of us are wrong. Good luck with that. I have played UO and even played the game that inspired UO, Legends of Kesmai, SB, Eve, etc etc... yet I am the one here that does not understand what sandbox is. Whatever ya say kid, isn't DFO calling ya about now? Oh wait, boss mobs respawn there and you have to pick a race and have a starting spawn, it's not sandbox either!

Actually I played the game since early beta and extensively in release, including raiding APW. Sure, the game (especially APW) was challenging and fun at times, but was completely linear and on rails both through directly limiting restrictions and through indirect aspects like quest hubs (for quests that were very literally almost always a series of linear quests) and 'good' PvE spots which imo is what makes many PvE heavy games distinctly NOT sandbox, because you CAN go anywhere you want, but don't due to population/group requirements or 'good' PvE spots or any number of things that funnel players in games like Vanguard.

And I'm not talking about factions. I'm talking about the KOS system that was in the game at launch, which meant certain races very literally couldn't get quests or use npcs, including trainers, in certain areas. Which meant even if you did level up in an area where you were KOS you wouldn't be able to go to the trainer, so wouldn't be able to progress. Sure, you could go anywhere, and face game-side limiting restrictions on your gameplay and ability to progress in the game. Which doesn't sound very sandboxy to me!

Of course the took this out to make the game easier for nubs, and it did open the game up some, which is why I believe Vanguard isn't exactly a themepark game, but it's also definitely not a sandbox either.

And by your definition, it seems that all games where you're allowed to travel around as a noobie and pick what race/class/crafting you want to do makes it a sandbox and that WoW is a sandbox game too. /facepalm Hey, now that I think about it, every game lets you DECIDE whether you want to play it, and there's no more freedom than that, so ALL games are sandboxes, right?!

It's not that your definition of sandbox is right or wrong, it's just that you put down everyone else's opinions as opinions (no shit, sherlick) and then trumpet your own opinions as something more than just, get this, your opinions. Yeah, I know, crazy thought that people expressing their opinions are expressing their, get this, opinions. You included.

Oh, of course then if someone disagrees they're suddenly a kid that doesn't know anything and you feel it's necessary to insult them. Hey, whatever makes you feel like a bigger man on the internet, I suppose. Good luck with that.

[popsicledeath]

Originally Posted by Bigg

I would just like to comment on this a bit with a early quote from Mats. Its not this quote necessarily that drives people to argue against this, its that this idea (Multiple Character Server) is just a BAD idea as we know it.

Your quote shows not that it IS a bad idea, but that the Devs THINK it's a bad idea. Maybe semantics, but a big difference.

I still think it's worse to open trolls and griefing and spying up to everyone, just because a few will do it. To me it's like making murder legal because a few people are going to do it anyways, so at least making it legal people will know to look out for murder, suddenly.

Sure, it's hyperbole, but I still think opening up the flood gates to these things the devs ADMIT are bad makes no sense. Sure, a small percentage of the players would buy second accounts to act like asshats, but it would be a small percentage imo, and not game breaking. Allowing ALL players to grief, troll, spy and in particular PK reputation-free on alts imo CAN end up game breaking.

Imo they just put in the whole DEVA system and justified it in the way they did to cater to a crowd that is less hardcore. Also that at the time they didn't have the confidence the game would have more than one server (and I agree, if they're only expecting 1 server then MCS is a must, unfortunately). Much of the games direction and 'hardcore' style and even the way features are implemented point toward SCS, to the point that the one feature that I see surprising/disappointing/confusing people the most with MO is the whole MCS/Deva thing. People read up on the game, then learn this, and it makes no sense and doesn't seem to go along with the other aims and styles of the game (in my experience).


Not a response to you, more general:

I respect their decision, but it doesn't mean I think it's the right one. And until the game is launched I'll continue expressing my opinion. Once the game is launched I'll revisit the issue and adjust my opinion as needed, based on how the situation is working. I think this is nothing but the healthiest viewpoint on the issue, on any issue, and the people digging their heels in on either side, declaring 'the other' as "kids" or telling them to go back to DFO is ignorant.

[Caolite]

Originally Posted by popsicledeath

Actually I played the game since early beta and extensively in release, including raiding APW. Sure, the game (especially APW) was challenging and fun at times, but was completely linear and on rails both through directly limiting restrictions and through indirect aspects like quest hubs (for quests that were very literally almost always a series of linear quests) and 'good' PvE spots which imo is what makes many PvE heavy games distinctly NOT sandbox, because you CAN go anywhere you want, but don't due to population/group requirements or 'good' PvE spots or any number of things that funnel players in games like Vanguard.

And I'm not talking about factions. I'm talking about the KOS system that was in the game at launch, which meant certain races very literally couldn't get quests or use npcs, including trainers, in certain areas. Which meant even if you did level up in an area where you were KOS you wouldn't be able to go to the trainer, so wouldn't be able to progress. Sure, you could go anywhere, and face game-side limiting restrictions on your gameplay and ability to progress in the game. Which doesn't sound very sandboxy to me!

Of course the took this out to make the game easier for nubs, and it did open the game up some, which is why I believe Vanguard isn't exactly a themepark game, but it's also definitely not a sandbox either.

And by your definition, it seems that all games where you're allowed to travel around as a noobie and pick what race/class/crafting you want to do makes it a sandbox and that WoW is a sandbox game too. /facepalm Hey, now that I think about it, every game lets you DECIDE whether you want to play it, and there's no more freedom than that, so ALL games are sandboxes, right?!

It's not that your definition of sandbox is right or wrong, it's just that you put down everyone else's opinions as opinions (no shit, sherlick) and then trumpet your own opinions as something more than just, get this, your opinions. Yeah, I know, crazy thought that people expressing their opinions are expressing their, get this, opinions. You included.

Oh, of course then if someone disagrees they're suddenly a kid that doesn't know anything and you feel it's necessary to insult them. Hey, whatever makes you feel like a bigger man on the internet, I suppose. Good luck with that.

See, that is where you are wrong, I did not use race/class/crafting to define sandbox at all, that was in your response to what made VG not a sandbox game, I will give you a D on that effort and not a complete fail. If you think that population won't keep you from doing/going places in MO than you are mistaken. For example, the uber dragon king will not be able to be killed by one or two players, so there is yet another restriction you listed that is the same in every game. Using the level excuse that you can not go somewhere is no different than what will happen in MO where you have to skill up and get better gear to defeat tougher monsters as well.

So by your definition again, DFO and Eve are not sandbox games either, because you can not kill Galente NPCs repeatedly and then go to Galente space without NPCs trying to kill you because of server side restrictions. Same with DFO, if you are Alfaer you are not going to any other races city without being killed by NPCs put in with server side restrictions. So yet again your definition of sandbox does not exist anywhere.

Far as my attitude, it has been in response to the way people post and the attitude they present themselves. Just like your original few posts directed at me, if you want to talk like a kiddie, than be called a kiddie and don't cry about it. Maybe you should have tried posting in the manner of this post if you didn't want your efeelings hurt!

[FragNTag]

Why not just offer a respec npc?

Players can respec 50% of their accumulated skill points.

[RunnerMac]

Originally Posted by Travie

Sounds interesting, has it ever been tried before?

LOTRO does it. You can log onto your Freep immediatly after logging off your Creep. However, theres a one hour delay back to creepside. Main reason was to prevent unfair tactics such as spying.

Again however, theres vent/TS and theres always going to be texting/cell phone talk between buddies who choose different sides just to create mayhem. So making a SCS or a MCS with a time delay will not prevent that, just make it more difficult.

There were some other points I wanted to make about the OP's remarks, but I seemed to have lost interest.

[Bruin]

Bigg,

Hav mai babeez?/

-Bruin

[Artorius]

I dont agree with OP's idea but from what I know of this game, it does look like MCS could creates more problem then if it was 1 character per server.

I guess we're gonna have to deal with it because I think devs want MCS.

With that said, I wouldnt want only rich people to have multiple character by buying multiple accounts...

Maybe there could be a system that let people know if x characters are from the same account.

For example, when creating your first character on the server you could be asked to choose a family name that will come after the name of every character you will make on that server. Of course, just like names, family names would be unique. That would limit spying, griefing, etc.

As for the problem of people not interacting with others because of their alts, I guess the best way is to limit the number of characters/server.

Anyway, even if someone have alts for crafting and his main for combat. He will not have the time to make them both expert. Thats why there are mains and alts. If his main is a fighter. Maybe he will still need to look for mains crafter for good crafted items.

What will happen in MO if someone try to trade an item he stole from another player ? Will the player buying it turn criminal as well or not ? That could change a lot of things.

As much as I think SCS could be interesting, I think we can deal with MCS.

[Zealot]

Originally Posted by Artorius

I dont agree with OP's idea but from what I know of this game, it does look like MCS could creates more problem then if it was 1 character per server.

I guess we're gonna have to deal with it because I think devs want MCS.

With that said, I wouldnt want only rich people to have multiple character by buying multiple accounts...

Maybe there could be a system that let people know if x characters are from the same account.

For example, when creating your first character on the server you could be asked to choose a family name that will come after the name of every character you will make on that server. Of course, just like names, family names would be unique. That would limit spying, griefing, etc.

As for the problem of people not interacting with others because of their alts, I guess the best way is to limit the number of characters/server.

Anyway, even if someone have alts for crafting and his main for combat. He will not have the time to make them both expert. Thats why there are mains and alts. If his main is a fighter. Maybe he will still need to look for mains crafter for good crafted items.

What will happen in MO if someone try to trade an item he stole from another player ? Will the player buying it turn criminal as well or not ? That could change a lot of things.

As much as I think SCS could be interesting, I think we can deal with MCS.

Of course they will have the time. Most of these people live in their parents basement. 2 weeks? try 2 days.

[revenoff]

Originally Posted by Zealot

Of course they will have the time. Most of these people live in their parents basement. 2 weeks? try 2 days.

except you haven't tested the full skill system

are you aware that there are going to be passively trained skills? y'know, the ones that can't be actively ground-out like melee can

perhaps you should try reading the main site

http://www.mortalonline.com/attributesskills

so all there needs to be is 1 "learning skill" that requires a significant amount of time to "study" and gives you a significant boost to your crafting abilities

[popsicledeath]

Originally Posted by Artorius

With that said, I wouldnt want only rich people to have multiple character by buying multiple accounts...

Maybe there could be a system that let people know if x characters are from the same account.

Erm, I don't think additional accounts are necessarily an indicator of being 'rich.' In fact, I'm pretty sure in almost all cases of whether someone does or doesn't buy an additional account that money isn't really the concern. Sure, there are always a few people who are really pinching pennies to pay their MMO subs, but for the most part I'm thinking it's not THAT much money that only 'rich' people would/could afford extra accounts.

Ironically the idea you propose (and almost every idea restricting MCS) will only end up with the 'rich' people STILL just buying extra accounts to get around any restrictions imposed on MCS.

The fact is, people able/willing to get extra accounts are going to do it anyways if there's even a slight advantage, so why is it a good solution to just open up the ENTIRE community to the griefing, trolling and spying available with multiple characters.

[Ryahask]

So, I’ll start this up by stating that I recognize that there are other threads out there on this, but there’s yet to be one to truly bring together all of the arguments out there into one post, and none have yet to bring up a few important issues that in my mind break the possibility of MCS in MO, so I’ll be doing that here. Before anyone throws it down in the thread, I recognize that a few threads out there have discussed *portions* of what I’m going to write here, but there are none that come to mind that have compiled all of the arguments as I’m attempting to do.

Before I dive into the arguments, both for and against SCS, I’d like to mention that if I’ve forgotten anything please PM me and I will modify the OP in order to put it into this thread. I want the OP to be a gathering of the information rather than a simple introduction, as most can’t find the will to search through 30 pages of information, as I too often find myself doing, to find hidden gems in a discussion.

With that said, let’s begin, I’ll be starting with the pro-SCS arguments, also known as the con-MCS.

One final opening note, please read through the entire original post before responding.

1. Anonymity

This is perhaps the most vocalized and well known argument for SCS, but in my mind many don’t seem to understand what it means. So, let’s start with the explanation of this argument, as I’m such a kind individual. Anonymity basically circles around the need for an identity for any character and accountability for their actions. Without anonymity in a game the entire reason for a flagging system is removed, why have a flagging system that holds anyone accountable when I can simply create a second character for all of my nefarious deeds. It also truly removes the name of the individual, making trustworthiness a fictitious virtue; would you ever truly ask anyone in WoW to hold onto gold for you while going to get another character? I recognize that there are exceptions, and for the most part people would use a mailing service in these games, but just think of the question posed as it’s a testament to whether you trust anyone in those games.

A. Accountability

So, let’s start with the basics: accountability. Within any game you need to have accountability for your actions, and in a sandbox game dictated by the laws of society this holds even more value. In any game with FFA PvP there’s need for Law, and we’ve already been told that such a system will be put into Mortal Online. If you need a refresher on this, it’s called the flagging system, information on it can be found at the end of this article under “Resources”. As this is the case, and yes, there’s no debate as to whether there will be flagging: it’s a definite system in Mortal, it must be considered in all aspects of the game.

At first glance it might not seem likely that MCS would directly affect the flagging system, but with a bit of a deeper analysis you’ll notice direct connections that can easily shatter the flagging system. One of the simplest connections lies in the fact that playing as a Red is less significant, the entire basis for Reds is the fact that with great difficulty and risk they can gain greater reward. With multiple characters everything that plays against a Red is removed, you have access to Cities as a Blue (At least, better market Cities), your items are safer (As a Red you’re a free target), the Cities you can settle in are safer, and you won’t be hunted. If I can switch from a Red to a Blue I can easily commit multiple crimes and never pay a price, as all of the goods will be funneled to my Blue, meaning they cannot be reclaimed, and I’ll just let my Red lay dormant for a few days, striking again at that point.

Accountability does not apply to the flagging system alone though, it affects systems and activities across the board in a game. The next big point is “gank squads”, this will become a frequent problem without SCS implemented in the game. “Why?” one might ask, well it’s quite simple really, with multiple characters that have no immediate affiliation with one another you can easily roam the lands of Myrland raping and pillaging without any consequences. This will become a massive issue in terms in Clan vs. Clan warfare, or just Clans abusing single players. In either situation MOST Clans won’t risk becoming a public enemy by venturing through the game and killing everyone in sight, or specifically targeting other rival Clans to slow their progress, at least not with SCS. With a system in which each of your Clan Mates can become an unknown face, with no ties whatsoever to your Clan, it will become quite frequent that you’ll have gatherings of vagabonds attacking your City, or find yourself surrounded by 20 other players when hunting with a single friend or two.

B. The Individual

We’ll start with the individual personality and what the world is transformed into. With multiple characters, or personalities, you can easily act as you wish with one person and drastically change this dependent on who you speak to. Now, while the argument that you can do this regardless is sound, without multiple characters certain traits have to be universally accepted. The best example is the trustworthy Merchant, within Mortal shopping will become a nightmarish hell, which could theoretically cause the economy to suffocate. With multiple characters you have no accountability as a Merchant, and there will be no ability to base who you shop with on reputation. If I had a Master Blacksmith, as an example, rather than selling the wares on him I can transfer everything to a newly made character to trick the customer, hunt down them down after a purchase, or any number of other tactics. While I feel these are all valid tactics, the ease which with they’re completed with access to multiple characters is far too great. I will note that this is not based on the Shopper alone, the Merchant will have to fear selling goods as there is no accountability with MCS, therefore the Shoppers can act as they please and have no fear of future repercussions.

In this situation I feel as though using real life as an example is perfectly acceptable, so paint yourself a picture of society in which theft has no true repercussions (Unless you’re a damned fool), those you steal from don’t feel any meaningful harm, and even if you’re fool enough to get caught you can simply cut your losses and have a fresh start. This is, in essence, what adding MCS does within the Community for a game, few feel bad about others losing pixels, with multiple characters there’s no way to truly be caught, and even if your main is found you can easily transfer all you have to an alternate character and be reborn.

This transformation does not solely apply to the Market. By adding MCS to a game no player can truly be trusted, and many players become assholes without accountability. Normal activities in the game become a chore, because while in a sandbox environment you shouldn’t trust others without foundation, in a sandbox game with MCS you’re unable to trust others, regardless of past interaction with them. Not only should you be prepared for someone to stab you at every corner, it will become reality. To use a common example, we’re going to discuss subterfuge and infiltration of Clans. I’d like to start by mentioning that I support infiltration in games fully, I love nothing more than hearing about a Clan that was infiltrated or being responsible for such an act. When you can only play on one character per account the average player will need to dedicate their full time to infiltrating a Clan, but when you allow for multiple characters if you simply play a character for an hour or two daily (If even that much) you can infiltrate a Clan. There’s no prevention here, and it will make infiltration commonplace, regardless of your recruitment process, as over the internet there’s no true way to know the darkest depths of a mind, and when every player has the ability to control, say, 3 characters there’s no true defense against this. I don’t feel as though players who infiltrate Clans should be persecuted, but I do feel it should be a difficult task that takes a great deal of time and effort. I’ll leave this topic with a horrifying thought: imagine a world where anyone you meet could potentially be Lachrymose, not a world I’d personally want to be a part of.

Again, before ending this topic, this transformation of the individual personality DOES NOT apply solely to the two topics I mentioned, but I leave the rest to your imagination, I know it’s preposterous that you’re forced to think, what an asshole I am.

2. Economic Damage

One of the largest issues that comes of MCS is the damage that’s caused to the economy of a game, this might not sound as compelling based on other games as most Theme Park games not only allow for inflation, but expect it, but in a game based around a realistic market there’s no reason to allow for it. As MO will not have vendors that endlessly dispense currency for “Bear Testicles” there is a rate at which the market will be able to grow, as this is the case the economy truly needs to be monitored or all of the effort put into it will be shot to hell. Some might not understand the true harm dealt to the economy, so I’ll go ahead and list a few things

A. Inflation

Let’s start with inflation, or the gradual (Sometimes sudden) jump in prices. While this is bound to happen no matter the circumstances, as when the demand for items grows and the amount produced does not inflation is birthed, when you have a game with MCS it becomes particularly bad. When a veteran in the game has limitless pockets, for personal use alone, and they’re supplying four characters they’ll buy up utterly everything in sight and gouge the prices so others aren’t able to afford simple items. Yes, it’s bound to happen, but with MCS in you’ll find that inflation is ten times worse than it is otherwise, and while a full loot sandbox game will give some preventative to mass inflation it simply isn’t enough. Let me say that I do enjoy inflation in games, as I like to see true economic patterns when playing (It simply feels more immersive), but the level you see it in most MCS games is so insane that it ultimately ruins the experience.

B. Slow Painful Death

There’s no other way to phrase this than, the market will die a slow painful death, gasping for breath but denied air. By allowing for players to create their own items, the in-game market is bound to utterly fail. Rather than Warrior Bob going to spend his hard earned gold at Crafter Mary’s shop, Warrior Bob will now go to his Crafter Bob and make his own sword. To start with, this means that excess of play time is actually favored by the game mechanics, yes, despite the system the more you play the better off you will be. Whether in real life or a game, the more time and effort you put into something the more you’re likely to get back, there’s no way to curb this and I don’t think there needs to be one. But to actually support the system in game is drastically different, yes, to play 8 hours a day in comparison to an average of 4 hours will be a massive advantage, but if you’re playing on 2 characters (Potentially developing 2 Characters at the pace others develop 1) you’re given an advantage that can’t be matched. My Crafter will be equivalent to those that are purely focused on Crafting, and my Warrior will be as strong as every Hired Hand around. It actually supports long hours even more, as to play frequently on both my Warrior and Crafter will benefit the other insanely. So rather than simply being on equal footing with everyone else playing along the same Skills as my characters, I’ll be 2 steps ahead. My Crafter can develop better gear for my Warrior, while my Warrior can seek out the items my Crafter needs that require the presence of a stronger character.

Moving on from the fact that playing longer is promoted, this simply chokes the economy. Buying and selling, the heart of a working economy will become non-existent in Mortal. Why would I spend hard earned gold on another Crafter when I can filter it straight into game Mechanics and still get the gear I need? A simple example is paying for a House within a City, I doubt I’ll be paying in Wood, so I can simply funnel all of my Gold into buying up property and depend on my Crafter character for gear. While I hate this process, I can say right now that if MCS actually is brought into Mortal as intended I’ll be doing it. There’s simply no way to compete if you don’t use the advantage given and others do, so you can’t simply say it’s up to players to conserve the economy.

It might seem like this would counter Inflation, but there when you reach a certain point as a Merchant it will just be easier to buy the one or two swords actually being sold on the market for 10,000GP each than making a new one.

With the two points that are always immediately brought up, I’ll move onto my more compelling points that I’ve yet to see mentioned in detail in other locations, if at all.

3. Globalization

One of the most tragic things you can see in a game is when the massive, beautiful, world shaped around you is reduced to an insignificant size. While some might not make the immediate connection between this and MCS, it’s an obvious one with some measure of thought applied to the matter. Though you won’t see teleportation across the Map, or so we can hope (Especially in a PvP focal game), the ability to log off of one character and immediately be thrown across the face of the map is equivalent, if not worse. Not only can you access any location on the globe at any given time, if you place characters correctly, but you can access certain regions with characters that are significantly better for the situation than your main. This applies to combat primarily; while there are issues brought up with the market I won’t be covering those. As I’ve stated my knowledge of the in-game economy is more limited than most and I’d just be doing a disservice to the argument by putting up my elementary points.

A. Combat

Combat, the most harmful part of globalization, at least in a PvP focal sandbox MMO, combat. By allowing players multiple characters large scale PvP is completely ruined. The first thing to make note of is the globalization of Clan warfare, so rather than expanding logically to allow for a better tactical situation for an Empire, a larger Clan may easily take 3 (Assuming we’re allowed 3 Characters again, this number is complete guess-work) Cities spread across the Map and expand outwards at each. Why, Ryahask, is this possible you may ask, well let me do the honor of explaining it. Though there may be no in game mechanics to announce an attack on a City, there will most certainly be means of communicating with Clan mates outside of the game, and most Clans will utilize this. Picture, if you will, a raid in the middle of the evening on a City, shrouded by night and silent within its own walls, as soon as the Raiders (Amounting to 50) are spotted by a lone sentry 500 Soldiers appear out of thin air to defend their walls. By allowing for MCS subterfuge, surprise, and good planning are completely eliminated in a combat scenario. As preposterous a statement as it may seem, MCS fuels the zerg, without it Clans will find themselves incapable of spreading across the map without losing something but if MCS is added to the game there’s no way to prevent the spread of a zerg.

There’s no way to defend 10 Holdings spread across the map, even as a Zerg, without spreading out. When you spread out, you’re more vulnerable as smaller units make the Zerg ineffective. When you have the ability to log on to multiple characters, you can immediately shatter this fact. If I’m a smart Zerg, which of course I am, I’ll require my members to have one combat oriented character logged off at every City on the map. Well, yes, at some point you won’t be able to do this due to the lack of character spots and excess of Cities, but if you simply break down your City locations into 3 general regions, there will be no problem doing this. Additionally, any Clan that doesn’t will be utterly crushed, so you’re forced into using multiple characters in order to successfully defend your Cities, but by doing this combat becomes utterly pointless. There’s nothing to stop the Zerg, in this feature they’re actually promoting the Zerg as it will be the most viable strategy to win in combat. If 1,000 players can be teleported to your City to defend the gates, you’ll rarely lose a City and are instantly a Militaristic powerhouse.

Let’s flip this point though, is there a way for the Offense to use this against defenders? Yes, by Zerging of course (how else?), you can use a flash flood tactic. Rather than moving your forces all together the smart Zerg, which as we covered I am, will gradually have their players move within range of an Enemy city and log off. The only way to prevent this is by having you login in a different location than where you logged out, which just starts an insane host of other issues and isn’t even worth considering as an alternative. So once again, paint a picture for me with your glorious mind, a cloudless beautiful day in the Bacon of Hope, sentries are happily guarding the City. The sun is blotted out within moments by a rain of arrows, as 1,000 players logged on their Alts that had surrounded the City. Within moments the City is lost, as it’s defenseless against a Blitzkrieg tactic of sorts.

Adding in MCS completely throws Combat on its head, without any means of reversing the effects.

4. Broked-ed...-ed Characters

This is a simple category, but an important one nonetheless. By adding in MCS specific character types and their drawbacks are broken. The best example here is the Crafter, they should be an economic maverick, able to find their way through the market and develop an Economic Empire. Great, this can still be done easily, I won’t deny that. The reason why Crafters become broken here is the simple fact that their drawbacks are now removed. They’re not supposed to have much ability in Combat. With MCS it can be guaranteed that every Crafter is going to have a Combat Mule (Very literally). Rather than moving goods between Cities on their own, or hiring out Mercenaries, you’ll begin to see Crafters moving goods together in their own caravan of Combat oriented characters. Naked running to a location is never a true worry, so getting their Mains to City A to sell their Goods isn’t difficult once the items themselves reach the City.

Now with all of that said, it seems it’s time to move onto the benefits of MCS, woohoo!

5. The Benefits of MCS

I recognize that this is a single category where Pro-SCS had 4 devoted to it alone, but there simply aren’t as many arguments out there, both that I’ve found and been able to conjure up, as there are for SCS. There are a significant 2 points, yes just 2, come to mind. I’m not being biased in this situation, I’m truly aiming to think of all of the reasons MCS would be good, and only two come to mind, so here they are.

A. If not Me, Him!

We’ll start with the one point that can actually be weighed, as in my opinion the second is admittedly much more difficult to do so with.

“Ryahask, I hear your points (or don’t), but without multiple characters my rival Bob who buys two accounts is going to have an insane advantage over me.”

I understand this point, as I’ve never been one to buy two accounts, do I have the funds? Yes, but I see no point in doing so, even in an SCS game. The problem is simple, this is just like the argument that a casual player should be able to beat one who plays constantly. Just as with time, the person who puts more money into any activity, whether in life or a game, will yield more reward from it.

Unless Starvault chooses to challenge everything that aids gamers outside of a game, then this point is null and void. I want to see in game voice Chat hosted by Starvault, with equal sound quality and ability to organize as Vent. On top of that there had better be a Global Chat to ensure that IRC is out of the picture. They better also host websites for every Clan out there, or have an in game news section where members can discuss issues. There are literally hundreds of advantages that can be gained by paying for out of game services, they shouldn’t prevent it here and here alone as it truly has no benefit unless they challenge every service that a player could pay for in order to get ahead.

This means that while they’re at it they should simply offer Skill Grinding services and give away all of the most difficult to come by in game items, hell, might as well gold farm and simply hand it out to players for free while they’re at it. They’d also need to ship top of the line computers to everyone and start up a fantastic connection worldwide that they’d distribute to their gamers for free.

Unless SV chooses to butt heads with every service that could possibly benefit a gamer in every way, so even Pizza companies which allow for the player to not leave their keyboard but rather sit back and continue playing without being annoyed by those blasted bodily needs, they should not approach this as it truly has no effect and there are so many problems with MCS that it simply becomes negative.

Bottom line, money will always play a role, to involve themselves in trying to balance the play field is insane, as it will never be achieved and an additional character is hardly a massive benefit. They’d be much better off giving in game voice chat and global chat if they truly want to balance the playfield, one additional character equates to little as so few will utilize the ability to own two accounts, the ability to communicate within seconds of an event happening challenges godly status in games.

[Ryahask]

B. The Bitch of a Point to Challenge

This is the only pro-MCS point that is near impossible to go against. There’s no true way to judge this as it is based on the individual, so I’ll simply go off of my personal opinion on it.

Yes, this is a game, and therefore I want to experience all of the content. I can understand this point completely, I don’t pay for a game in order to only have a severely limited experience, but there can be in game means of facilitating the gamer who wants to experience everything, and if I recall the developers have discussed the possibility of this being the case.

Rather than having skill choice permanent, allow players to forget skills, but not the Secondary Skills. This means that the only thing they would need to level up to get back to their previous state would be their main skills; this would allow for a Mage, with every single School and every spell in each skill at 100%, to shift his points into Melee. If he decides he dislikes Melee and would rather stick to Magic, then he can forget his Melee skills and purely train up his core Magic skills (Which could even have an increased learning speed as he already knew it, like riding a bike) in order to be at the point he was at before.

This leaves one side to this point untouched though, I know. What if I want to play my Archer, then log onto my Mage and play him too? Well, in this player’s opinion, tough shit. Yes, it’s awesome to be able to log onto a Mage with maxed skills when your main is Melee, I love dropping nukes somewhat reminiscent of an atom bomb. The argument truly becomes whether all of the problems that MCS creates is worth this one little truly positive thing it brings to the table. In my opinion, it isn’t. Not only does it create such a host of issues that it would rival building a daycare next to the Vatican, but many of these issues are simply for those who aren’t thinking things through wholly.

You will still be able to act as a Mage, Archer, or Foot Soldier when you wish, your skills simply won’t be at their highest. On top of this, the most important rule in a skill based game is balance. If you think an Archer who carries nothing but his Bow will be competitive, you’re sorely mistaken, as it will be with a Mage who carries nothing but his trusty Staff, or a Foot Soldier who only has his Sword n’ Board. You can still act as anything you wish to in Mortal, at any given time, you just won’t necessarily have optimized damage. And if it’s for the purposes of fun, then there’s no need for this, and if it isn’t for fun then it only creates issues and this point can be ignored once more.

As a concluding statement, yes, there is a very good point pro-MCS, and I do understand this point. The host of issues that come with this point though are far too numerous and large to ignore them and simply go with MCS because it might allow for those with a shorter attention span to enjoy the game more. Most people being bred as MMO gamers in WoW don’t realize the luxury it is to have 10 different characters and the ability to log onto any of them at any given time, and because of that they aren’t fully thinking through the issues created here.

Conclusion:

Finally, huh? Ultimately, yes, every issue Pro-SCS that I brought up can be fixed with any number of solutions, but they’d have to be so numerous, complex, and ultimately game breaking (As it would ruin other aspects of the game to fix every issue SCS brings to the table) that I feel it simply isn’t worth considering MCS as a possibility. I realize that at this point the Developers intend to implement MCS with the Deva system, but I strongly disagree with it and hope to see community support here and maybe even force the Developers into giving a response to the plan for the problems brought to the table by MCS. I’d also like to make note of the fact that YES, I am clearly Pro-SCS, so what I’ve stated may be a bit biased, but tough shit, if someone who was Pro-MCS had sat down and taken the time to write this out it’d be there right to do so.

And on a final note, as stated before, if I forgot something here please feel free to PM me or respond to this thread with what I’ve forgotten, that qualifies as a large point, and I’ll put it into the original post. If you’d like to discuss it, as said, I’ll be checking this thread regularly and will gladly respond to anything thrown up, otherwise…

Discuss.
-Ryahask

Resources:
Flagging Page: http://www.mortalonline.com/combat/flagging[/COLOR]
The Flagging PDF, with full details on the system, can be found at the bottom of the page.

Initially there were a few more of these, but unfortunately a few of the locations housing some information are now gone.

Here is the one other SCS/MCS thread going on at the moment, with an interesting proposal by Bigg which some of you might like to read over and see for yourself. I personally don’t give full support to the idea, but at the very least he’s attempting to fix the potential issue which he sees as I do.

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/2...t-w-bacon.html

[Ryahask]

Well, seems I need to define MCS/SCS, can't believe I forgot to do something so simplistic. Regardless as requested here is the definition, it'd be in the OP but shifting around text is much more difficult than posting it here.

SCS, or single character per server, simply means that each account has a character limit per server. There won't be any alts, you just have one character per server.

MCS, or multiple characters per server, simply means that each account can have multiple characters per server, the number varies dependent on the game.

Sorry about not making that clear, a great deal of this text was written as a counter article to a Pro MCS article, so I forgot the necessity to explain it.

[deathshroud]

If i understand you correctly then i disagree. Eve online has the option to make multiple characters and currently has the best economy in any mmorpg so inflation due to multiple accounts doesnt seem to effect this game.
Secondly being responsible for your actions is fine, however nobody/hardly anyone would paly a crafter in MO if you couldnt have a combat character as well. This would limit trade and destroy the games economy with so few crafters.
thirdly i am going to use eve onlnie as a reference again as to why multiple characters is a good thing. Without it you cant use spies, infiltrate other guilds, decide to paly a pk and a good player. These all help to flesh out an mmo world and are the latest thing in mmos.

seems like the rest of yout points are just bitching at mmos in general and not really in relation to MO.
As for having built in chat program for MO. i think its wasted time and money creating it when theres so many good thirdparty software out there. An ingame chat of some kind (text based) would be useful due to people using vent anyway.

[Taurus`]

What is this, an essay?

I shall read and maybe comment on it later...a lot of text!

edit: also you might want to provide a definition of what is "Mcs/Scs". Most people have no idea what it is.

[Treg]

Define MCS and SCS.

otherwise

TL;DR

[Ryahask]

The definition of MCS/SCS is now in the third post.

If i understand you correctly then i disagree. Eve online has the option to make multiple characters and currently has the best economy in any mmorpg so inflation due to multiple accounts doesnt seem to effect this game.

I won't pretend to know the specifics of EVE's economy, but I'll read up on it. The simple statement that they have MCS says nothing though, there's a great deal of difference between what MO aims to become and what EVE is, additionally we can practically guarentee that SV has not hired an Economist to help design the Economy in a realistic fashion. In anycase, I'll read up on the specifics of how EVE's Economy functions and reply accordingly.

Secondly being responsible for your actions is fine, however nobody/hardly anyone would paly a crafter in MO if you couldnt have a combat character as well. This would limit trade and destroy the games economy with so few crafters.

That's the point, Crafting is supposed to be a rarity, since when have you known every single person to own their own store and know a trade of their own? This should work fine as Crafters can still, very easily I might add, participate in combat. It's not preventing them from using combat, it's simply making them slightly less effective at it, but far from a great deal less effective. If I recall the quote from a Developer from quite awhile ago they want to see the maxed out Combat Character, with optimal gear, take out 5 players who logged on for the first time IF they're of equivalent skill.

This is saying that Crafters will still be more than proficient, just not in a 1v1 situation, which is the entire point. Noone should be an economic maverick and a fierce Warlord.

thirdly i am going to use eve onlnie as a reference again as to why multiple characters is a good thing. Without it you cant use spies, infiltrate other guilds, decide to paly a pk and a good player. These all help to flesh out an mmo world and are the latest thing in mmos.

This is completely inaccurate, you can definetely use spies and infiltration or decide to play a PKer or a Blue. You are right in saying these are very important gameplay tactics, I completely agree, but they should be difficult. Spying on or Infiltrating a Clan should not be a simple task, it should be an accomplishment, it truly isn't with multiple characters. If you truly want to spy on/infiltrate a Clan you should have to go undercover, just like one would have to realisitically speaking, you shouldn't have the ability to simply hop off of your Spy at any time to go play with Clanmates. It should be a full time job when playing.

As for your last bit, you seemed to skim over certain parts (Which is fair, given the length of the post) but I won't respond to them if you haven't clearly read through the OP.

[Bigg]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

If i understand you correctly then i disagree. Eve online has the option to make multiple characters and currently has the best economy in any mmorpg so inflation due to multiple accounts doesnt seem to effect this game.
Secondly being responsible for your actions is fine, however nobody/hardly anyone would paly a crafter in MO if you couldnt have a combat character as well. This would limit trade and destroy the games economy with so few crafters.
thirdly i am going to use eve onlnie as a reference again as to why multiple characters is a good thing. Without it you cant use spies, infiltrate other guilds, decide to paly a pk and a good player. These all help to flesh out an mmo world and are the latest thing in mmos.

seems like the rest of yout points are just bitching at mmos in general and not really in relation to MO.
As for having built in chat program for MO. i think its wasted time and money creating it when theres so many good thirdparty software out there. An ingame chat of some kind (text based) would be useful due to people using vent anyway.

Please dont promote EVE online as a MCS system. Its for the most part a SCS system with the option to make other characters ( but with a huge negative incentive to do so ). If your unaware you may only skill (time based) up 1 character at a time per account. If you attempted to train multiple characters on the account your essentially stunting your player growth in half or even greater. If anything people bought others pre-skilled characters and transferred them over to empty character slots on their accounts.

Most people in EVE that are serious about the game buy multiple accounts. I myself had 3 EVE accounts until several months ago. Not everyone had multiple accounts though and the main reason it worked for EVE like that was their GTC system promoted it.

[Zealot]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

If i understand you correctly then i disagree. Eve online has the option to make multiple characters and currently has the best economy in any mmorpg so inflation due to multiple accounts doesnt seem to effect this game.

Instead of just saying that Eve has a working economy, why don't you state why it isn't subject to inflation and self sufficiency?

oh and good post Ryahask.

[zerbz]

you have way way way way way too much time on your hands.

[Ryahask]

Originally Posted by zerbz

you have way way way way way too much time on your hands.

And proud of it!

[NizeGuy]

Originally Posted by Ryahask

And proud of it!

You should be. Very well written mate. I hope the devs will consider making a SCS server or drop MCS for good


You should also include that SCS is more hardcore than MCS.


MCS = Pussies...!

[Talcynar]

Originally Posted by Bigg

Most people in EVE that are serious about the game buy multiple accounts. I myself had 3 EVE accounts until several months ago. Not everyone had multiple accounts though and the main reason it worked for EVE like that was their GTC system promoted it.

to add to this, i never got past the trial on EVE because of this (and the point2point only flying system.) nice idea to prolong the game, but i figured it would literally take 2 months to build a full battle character due to the time based skill learning. if i remember correctly, level 5 skills took between 6-13 days to learn.

in MO, it's all based on how fast you skill yourself up. I could definitely see a fully trained/skilled character being built in a week, then they move onto a crafting character. 2 weeks, 2 full characters. it will no doubt take most others longer due to time restrictions and such. but i'm pretty sure very, very few will take more than 1 month to fully build their character. and

i have to say that i am pro-SCS. having multiple characters ruins a game like this, mainly because it gives free access to reds. you piss someone off, suddenly that character shows up on a red alt and kills you, then goes back to crafting, gathering, whatever, and takes no penalties because he did it on another character. this can only be lessened by all their characters turning red, which i doubt will happen.

then there's the part about going to your own alt to craft weapons for yourself. i know i'd be one to do this. i've grown up on the mindset "why pay for something you can do yourself?" this WILL throw the market off and make it smaller than it should be in a lively world. i know guilds will craft items for their members and such, but that's about as big as economies will get in the MCS.

lastly, this game is aimed at realism. 1 character should be all you get, especially since you can change your stats/skills whenever and however you want, given a little time. there's no need for more characters other than to make the game easier, which i think is a bad thing.

i approve of the OP and congratulate Ryahask for putting it all together.

[Psyknx]

Nice post. I'm all for 1 character per account.

[DAC]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

If i understand you correctly then i disagree. Eve online has the option to make multiple characters and currently has the best economy in any mmorpg so inflation due to multiple accounts doesnt seem to effect this game.
Secondly being responsible for your actions is fine, however nobody/hardly anyone would paly a crafter in MO if you couldnt have a combat character as well. This would limit trade and destroy the games economy with so few crafters.
thirdly i am going to use eve onlnie as a reference again as to why multiple characters is a good thing. Without it you cant use spies, infiltrate other guilds, decide to paly a pk and a good player. These all help to flesh out an mmo world and are the latest thing in mmos.

seems like the rest of yout points are just bitching at mmos in general and not really in relation to MO.
As for having built in chat program for MO. i think its wasted time and money creating it when theres so many good thirdparty software out there. An ingame chat of some kind (text based) would be useful due to people using vent anyway.

However, in EVE, you can only skill up one character at a time.

[Reinholt]

I didnt read any of that but ill give you +rep for your troubles writing that beast. Aaand im drunk so its harder to read anyway or something...

[Aragon]

Ryahask - why do you say there is only 2 reasons why MCS would be a understandable system and if you read the other theads on MCS and SCS why do you avoid the socializing and guild aspects when it comes to comparing these systems?

I quote the answer i gave popsicledeath on this -

Originally Posted by popsicledeath

First off, the game won't exactly have classes, so that's not an issue. And the different skills that will matter will [allegedly] be easy to train, so it's not like you'll spend 3 months 'trying' a class and not want to lose that progress. Meaning you can [allegedly] try different styles of weapons and magic etc and not have too much trouble trying a lot and then when you find your niche working up only the skills you want.

Trying out races is valid, but why not do what I've done plenty of times in games... make a character in a different area, go explore, delete it when bored, make a new one, explore. Or make different characters on different servers (assuming there will be for MO) before deciding on a server (I mean, gosh, you might actually meet and enjoy more than one server community!).

Then when you 'figure it out' you make your 'real' character.... which is what I assume a lot of people will do anyways, as you don't want to start out on your 'real' character a total noob in a pvp game sometimes.

They could even make it that the secondary stats are tied to accounts, not characters, so even if you did delete down the road to make a new race, or wanted to roll up a character on another server you wouldn't have to 'lose' all that progress you've made.

Originally Posted by Aragon

This reasoning is selling out the guild socializing from the game. Single character per account is selling out a big part of what a RPG is, namely socializing with others, taking part in game events with others.

Having just a crafter available will remove me from the list of players available attending guild raids where a PvP character is needed.

When will you pro single character per account finally understand this?

I will only be playing with my guildmates onscreen when it comes to my crafters feature skills, not when it comes to other guild missions as PvP or PvE cause my single character wont be fit for such gameplay.

I can be apart of the raid by teamspeak or ventrilo but i wont see on screen what is actually taking place. This is a enough reason to dump the single character per account where it belongs, in the gutter with all the other shit.

A SCS system will remove alot of the possible guildactivities i could have been a part of. I wont be able to PvP with my guildfriends cause the game mechanism's forbids it.

Isnt socializing with your friends what MMO games is about? And that you want too remove?

The so called "sollutions" on this problem i seen from the pro SCS mafia is either retrain your character for 2 weeks or play on another server with your PvP character and both of these "sollutions" is of course nothing but alot of BS.

Why should i not be able too take part in PvP with my guildmates cause i enjoy being a crafter?

SCS is by far the most antisocializing feature you could bring to a game.

[Artorius]

Originally Posted by popsicledeath

Erm, I don't think additional accounts are necessarily an indicator of being 'rich.' In fact, I'm pretty sure in almost all cases of whether someone does or doesn't buy an additional account that money isn't really the concern. Sure, there are always a few people who are really pinching pennies to pay their MMO subs, but for the most part I'm thinking it's not THAT much money that only 'rich' people would/could afford extra accounts.

Ironically the idea you propose (and almost every idea restricting MCS) will only end up with the 'rich' people STILL just buying extra accounts to get around any restrictions imposed on MCS.

The fact is, people able/willing to get extra accounts are going to do it anyways if there's even a slight advantage, so why is it a good solution to just open up the ENTIRE community to the griefing, trolling and spying available with multiple characters.

Ok, lets say "people that want to spend more money on the game".

With that said, I believe less people will spend more money on the game to buy multiple accounts with small restrictions as I suggested then if its not allowed at all to have more than 1 character/server.

[Kuutti]

Originally Posted by Aragon

I wont be able to PvP with my guildfriends cause the game mechanism's forbids it.

Why should i not be able too take part in PvP with my guildmates cause i enjoy being a crafter?

I would agree with you on this if there where something that would limite the number of players that could take part of some "instanced" battle where you would need to chose the most elitest of elitest to have better success rating...but Im not in beta so dunno. As far as I know there shouldnt be any 25man instances.

If your guild pulls you of the raid just because you have specialized into crafting, then you should just leave that bs'ing guild asap.

[Aragon]

Originally Posted by Kuutti

I would agree with you on this if there where something that would limite the number of players that could take part of some "instanced" battle where you would need to chose the most elitest of elitest to have better success rating...but Im not in beta so dunno. As far as I know there shouldnt be any 25man instances.

If your guild pulls you of the raid just because you have specialized into crafting, then you should just leave that bs'ing guild asap.

If i take part in PvP then i want to take part fully and be able to compete with other player's, not be a crippled player cause the game mechanisms forbid me too take part on equal terms.

Being forced too PvP with a crippled PvP character as a crafter isnt an option. Me and my guild is here too compete on equal terms not being crippled by some retarded game mechanisms as a SCS system that remove just that.

If a SCS system would be applied to MO guilds like mine would leave the game instantly, it's a gamebreaker. And we the elitist PvP guilds is a big chunk of the possible future subscribers.

[Artorius]

Sorry but thats way too much text to read for now. Lets just say I support SCS or restricted MCS with suggestions I posted here: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/2...tml#post556849

[Ryahask]

Originally Posted by Aragon

If i take part in PvP then i want to take part fully and be able to compete with other player's, not be a crippled player cause the game mechanisms forbid me too take part on equal terms.

Being forced too PvP with a crippled PvP character as a crafter isnt an option.

Then don't play a Crafter, ultimately you aren't that crippled as I stated before. The number the Developers gave us, from quite some time ago, was 5 players just out of the character creation screen as an equal match for 1 player, completely combat oriented and in optimal gear, if they're all of equivalent skill levels.

There is nothing saying that Crafters will be incapable of combat, and in every instance character builds have been discussed with Developers they mention that the name of the game is balance, if you want to play a pure crafter and have access to every type of crafting, optimizing your ability to Craft, fantastic, just don't expect to be a god in combat as well.

This takes nothing away from socializing as it's more than possible, to my knowledge, to make a character aimed towards primarily crafting who will still have combat capability. In a head to head fight, no, you won't be able to beat someone who's fully optimized for combat, at least not if your skill level is the same. You could potentially beat them if you're a better player though, so it really prevents nothing.

If you want to have a fully developed Crafting character as well as a fully developed Combat character, great, comment on the other issues I brought up and determine ways of pushing them aside as many of them are potentially game breaking.

On topic though, the point you actually brought up, as someone else mentioned, is null. If a Clan forbids you from joining a Raid, they're either playing with moronic, or you REALLY suck at Combat, as, again, you will never be insignificant if you understand the base concepts of Combat in MO.

Gah, you edited in some so here goes.

Me and my guild is here too compete on equal terms not being crippled by some retarded game mechanisms as a SCS system that remove just that.

If a SCS system would be applied to MO guilds like mine would leave the game instantly, it's a gamebreaker. And we the elitist PvP guilds is a big chunk of the possible future subscribers.

If you want to compete on equal terms, then learn how to deal with this system, you mention that you're "Elitist PvPers" if that's the case you should understand balancing and that PvP should not boil down to the amount of time you play. Ultimately allowing for characters to have any build they want has no balancing, you can be a Crafter and capable in Combat if you're smart in character design and capable of actually fighting. If you require game skills to be on your side maybe you aren't quite as elite as you like to believe.

[Aragon]

Originally Posted by Ryahask

Then don't play a Crafter, ultimately you aren't that crippled as I stated before. The number the Developers gave us, from quite some time ago, was 5 players just out of the character creation screen as an equal match for 1 player, completely combat oriented and in optimal gear, if they're all of equivalent skill levels.

There is nothing saying that Crafters will be incapable of combat, and in every instance character builds have been discussed with Developers they mention that the name of the game is balance, if you want to play a pure crafter and have access to every type of crafting, optimizing your ability to Craft, fantastic, just don't expect to be a god in combat as well.

This takes nothing away from socializing as it's more than possible, to my knowledge, to make a character aimed towards primarily crafting who will still have combat capability. In a head to head fight, no, you won't be able to beat someone who's fully optimized for combat, at least not if your skill level is the same. You could potentially beat them if you're a better player though, so it really prevents nothing.

If you want to have a fully developed Crafting character as well as a fully developed Combat character, great, comment on the other issues I brought up and determine ways of pushing them aside as many of them are potentially game breaking.

On topic though, the point you actually brought up, as someone else mentioned, is null. If a Clan forbids you from joining a Raid, you're either playing with elitist assholes, or you REALLY suck at Combat, as, again, you will never be insignificant if you understand the base concepts of Combat in MO.

Yes im playing with a elitist guild and were not assholes. Why do you lower yourself too describe elitist guilds as assholes? Kinda remove all the hard work you did in the beginning.

A dedicated crafter will of course not compete on equal terms with a fully skilled PvP character and there will be thousand of players quitting or never starting MO cause they can as dedicated crafter's or thiefs not take part on equal terms in other guild activities as PvE and PvP. They will as crafter's not be able to compete on equal terms with their enemies either cause they will lack just about all skills that have anything with their PvP performance too do.

Game mechanisms as SCS that cripple and more or less remove your characters possibility to join in and perform well in all guildactivities is too be avoided.

The scenario i see here is me sitting in the house making weapons and armor when my guildfriends move out for some fun PvP/PvE activities. That is a anti socializing system and remove the point of playing a MMO.

[Kuutti]

Originally Posted by Aragon

The scenario i see here is me sitting in the house making weapons and armor when my guildfriends move out for some fun PvP/PvE activities. That is a anti socializing system.

Agreed. Thats really anti socializing guild you got there.

[Ryahask]

Originally Posted by Aragon

Yes im playing with a elitist guild and were not assholes. Why do you lower yourself too describe elitist guilds as assholes? Kinda remove all the hard work you did in the beginning.

A crafter will of course not compete on equal terms with a fully skilled PvP character and there will be thousand of players quitting or never starting MO cause they can as dedicated crafter's or thiefs not take part on equal terms in other guild activities as PvE and PvP.

The scenario i see here is me sitting in the house making weapons and armor when my guildfriends move out for some fun PvP/PvE activities. That is a anti socializing system.

To start with I changed what was stated there, not because I disagree with it but it doesn't suit the situation. If you check my post now it mentions morons, and the simple reason is there is no way you could harm anything unless you're a bad player. The reason for elitist assholes, is because they're be elitists, and assholes seperately in the fact that again, you wouldn't be able to harm anything if brought along, unless a bad player. Being elitist doesn't make you an asshole, and I didn't say anything to the affect of that.

There is nothing about the scenario you described that shouts anti-social system as you could very simply go out and join them in PvP/PvE, no you might not be as effective in every regard, but as I've stated multiple times you can balance your skills as a crafter to ensure you're capable in combat, again, NO you won't be able to beat someone who specializes in combat head to head IF you're of equal skill. With proper skill management and skill in combat, you can very easily compete in PvP. I'm sorry if I haven't made that clear, but that's where I see no issue. IF you balance your character purely for Crafting and you devote no skill whatsoever to Combat that's YOUR choice, as it was stated in a post you copied to the thread, there are no Classes. They are what you make them, if you choose to gimp your character in Combat you won't compete as well in combat, though you still can given a good level of player skill, if you balance your character than competing won't be as large an issue.

[Artorius]

You are a pvper but you need good crafted items ? Trade with crafters...

Your a pvp guild and need crafted items ? Trade with crafters guilds ?

Gosh people, is it that hard ? You dont need to do everything by yourself in a MMO.

[Bigg]

Originally Posted by Artorius

You are a pvper but you need good crafted items ? Trade with crafters...

Your a pvp guild and need crafted items ? Trade with crafters guilds ?

Gosh people, is it that hard ? You dont need to do everything by yourself in a MMO.

Yes, but there are people out there who want the best characters of both worlds and aren't willing to compromise on either. Hybrid characters are so overrated.

[Aragon]

Originally Posted by Ryahask

To start with I changed what was stated there, not because I disagree with it but it doesn't suit the situation. If you check my post now it mentions morons, and the simple reason is there is no way you could harm anything unless you're a bad player. The reason for elitist assholes, is because they're be elitists, and assholes seperately in the fact that again, you wouldn't be able to harm anything if brought along, unless a bad player. Being elitist doesn't make you an asshole, and I didn't say anything to the affect of that.

There is nothing about the scenario you described that shouts anti-social system as you could very simply go out and join them in PvP/PvE, no you might not be as effective in every regard, but as I've stated multiple times you can balance your skills as a crafter to ensure you're capable in combat, again, NO you won't be able to beat someone who specializes in combat head to head IF you're of equal skill. With proper skill management and skill in combat, you can very easily compete in PvP. I'm sorry if I haven't made that clear, but that's where I see no issue. IF you balance your character purely for Crafting and you devote no skill whatsoever to Combat that's YOUR choice, as it was stated in a post you copied to the thread, there are no Classes. They are what you make them, if you choose to gimp your character in Combat you won't compete as well in combat, though you still can given a good level of player skill, if you balance your character than competing won't be as large an issue.

I rather log in my fully trained PvP character and play on equal terms with other fully trained PvP characters then entering PvP with a crippled one.

Do you have any idea of how many that will avoid MO cause they will be forced to play only one template? This will be a game breaker for many players and make MO a less financially successful game.