Focus and religion or mana?

[Pudd]

Poll info!
Focus is defined as in this post.
Religion as a power source is defined as in this post.
localized pool of mana is defined as:

"you could have mages draw from the heat, coldness, wind, etc. within a certain distance around them. If a lot of mages that are casting fire magic within a certain area, then only fire spells within that area would do less damage, since there's not a lot of heat energy left. [this idea came from traceur and original warhammer concept]."
__________________________________________________ ____________________

I have never understood why so many games use mana. I don't know if it was on these forums or DF forums, but someone explained something like this - "It doesn't make sense that if you become a wizard you suddenly have a new life source."

What would make more sense to me is if instead of mana you have focus. Everyone knows that mental strain that you get after concentrating for too long. It would be better if when you cast a spell, the total drain would be somewhere around 75% focus and 25% stanima, and when your focus or strength is running low, your spell cast times would take longer, would look dimmer and/or would have less of an effect.

Inversely, everytime a someone swung a sword, the total drain from him would be around 75% stanima and 25% focus, and when he would be running low on either his swings would be more lathargic and less powerful. This is because I'm sure swordfighting in a battle for a long amount of time would be mentally taxing as well as physically.

Combining stanima and focus for both mages and sword fighters would help break the mold of forcing people into classes, since both draw from the same energy sources.

On top of this, focus could also be applied to other skills, some examples could possibly be crafting, learning languages, etc.

Another alternative to mana would be religion. Depending on how powerful the god you worship is, and how much "faith" you have in it (determined by making sacrafices to it, praying to it, how long you've been worshiping it, etc.), you could draw some sort of power from this god to gain a temporary boost in focus, strength, or some other stats, or you could temporarilly have a new spell you could use.

Adding the above ideas on focus and religion would, in my opinion, add more depth to the game.

tl;dr version: None! Please read before posting, and please stay on topic.

[Kalafax]

just gonna say no

[Lachrymose]

i like the idea. it would be a good way to sort of tie all characters together, in that a warrior will never just say "ah, i don't need any intelligence since i don't ever use mana." everyone would have to use focus, even the dimwitted barbarian, and the scholarly wizard would be forced to use up stamina as well, not just when moving around, but when casting. it makes sense because you would think conjuring up a magical fireball would be both mentally AND physically exhausting.

as far as the mana/religion thing goes, i think it could be an interesting element. we already know that interesting will play some kind of role in the game. it would be interesting to be able to activate some sort of "buff" and the type of buff you receive would depend on which god you decided to follow..

mana is sort of the traditional "fuel" for mages, and it would be nice to see every type of player having to rely on focus. besides, it's always good to break away from the traditional and try something new.

[Pudd]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

it would be a good way to sort of tie all characters together, in that a warrior will never just say "ah, i don't need any intelligence since i don't ever use mana." everyone would have to use focus, even the dimwitted barbarian, and the scholarly wizard would be forced to use up stamina as well, not just when moving around, but when casting. it makes sense because you would think conjuring up a magical fireball would be both mentally AND physically exhausting.

I completely forgot how it would make classes meld together while i was making the topic, you explained it perfectly.

[Rathius]

It's an interesting idea. I think it might work better than just having everyone use stamina for attacks and magic.

Although your concept isn't all that original (other than the relgious aspect), it's more of a name change if anything. You can take a lot of different games, but I'll just reference Diablo2. Each character's abilities (mage or not) will require a certain amount of mana when activated.

So really what it comes down to, is Focus sounds better, heh. Since a mage would focus on their spells and and the warrior types focus on their technique in order to pull it off. And just to throw it out there, a "Focus Potion" could be called a Potion of Clarity or something like that.

---
Now to go off on a different tangent, just because it's going through my head right now... The system could use both Focus and Stamina. I realize it makes the system a bit more complex, heh. But it could possibly balance out things a bit more. That way just because you have focus, doesn't mean you can use that ability, you would have to also check your stamina. That way someone can't run for miles, then decide to start casting or hacking away at something. Magic could use more focus than stamina; while Melee techniques would use more stamina than focus.

[Cye]

Originally Posted by Kalafax

just gonna say no

Someone opposing a concept, providing a topic of debate with additional perspectives, is considered "productive."

Merely objecting, without mention of motivation or rationale, is considered futile.

Answering "Focus and Religion or Mana?" with "No" is considered foolish.

(I dare you to elaborate.)

I like both ideas.

[Manorothh]

I like that idea, its quite originall and it has a lot of sense in a world of low fantasy, like MO, wich the devs said want to do.
Suggestion: You could make a poll about this.

[Pudd]

"Now to go off on a different tangent, just because it's going through my head right now... The system could use both Focus and Stamina. I realize it makes the system a bit more complex, heh. But it could possibly balance out things a bit more. That way just because you have focus, doesn't mean you can use that ability, you would have to also check your stamina. That way someone can't run for miles, then decide to start casting or hacking away at something. Magic could use more focus than stamina; while Melee techniques would use more stamina than focus." - Rathius

This is what I meant when i said the two things below:

"It would be better if when you cast a spell, the total drain would be somewhere around 75% focus and 25% stanima, and when your focus or strength is running low, your spell cast times would take longer, would look dimmer and/or would have less of an effect." - Pudd

"Inversely, everytime a someone swung a sword, the total drain from him would be around 75% stanima and 25% focus, and when he would be running low on either his swings would be more lathargic and less powerful" - Pudd

"Suggestion: You could make a poll about this. " - Manorothh

I plan on doing this, but after it gets debated for a while.

[Traceur]

i agree full heartedly with the idea of making the classical mental fuel bar into a global one rather then one just for magic - it's one of the things SWG did right. so "focus" gets my vote.

as for the religious suggestion, while i do like the idea of magic systems being the more occult type of religions, i don't like the whole "missionery competition" of having your deities strength grow by the number of it's followers. i know this is what MO is doing, but... i don't like it. maybe it's because i'm born jewish and we don't have missioneries (hell the idea of converts is disliked), maybe it's because the spiritualities i've perticipated in are more "teachings" then "religions" (taoism, indo-buddhism, tantra, gnostics, neo-pagans, the church of all worlds, etc...)... but it just isn't what i associate with religions. my characters spirituality shouldn't be about popularity competitions - that's for politics.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Cye

Someone opposing a concept, providing a topic of debate with additional perspectives, is considered "productive."

Merely objecting, without mention of motivation or rationale, is considered futile.

Answering "Focus and Religion or Mana?" with "No" is considered foolish.

(I dare you to elaborate.)

I like both ideas.

Someone supporting a concept, providing a topic of debate with additional perspectives, is considered "productive."

Merely approving, without mention of motivation or rationale, is considered futile.

Answering "Focus and Religion or Mana?" with "I like them" is considered foolish.

(I dare you to elaborate.)

[Kalafax]

Want me to elaborate, fine.

First off, mana isnt a new life source, it is merely a gauge of a wizards magic pool which is very important to them and their spells. The idea of having 75% of your focus drained and 25% for one action is silly, thats gonna slow everything way down and really make things unfun to play. While I like sticking with realism, we are the heros of the storys, and players are always the exception, MO doesnt need to worry about breaking the mold of forced classes because its a Sandbox Game, where there are no levels, and no forced classes, merely classes you may join if you which to specialize in a particular area and get bonuses in it.

As for the religion part, well I'm just not a fan of religion in general, but this would make it alot harder for people who are trying to start their own religions in game as the Devs have said will be possible, and will just make people surge to one religion to be the most powerful, and in the end prolly cause the elimination of religious freedom, I can already see everyone joining on religion, to make it the most powerful, and then slaughtering the followers of another religion because they wont convert to help make them even stronger.

Mana has been around for decades, and has worked wonderfully, thats why everyone sticks with it, you can change the name to focus, or anything else you want, but its still your magical power pool, it sets the magi apart from the barbarian, classes arnt needed, but a magic wielder should still be set apart from a fighter.

theres my elaboration, dont like it, oh well.

P.S As my sig says, "If it ain't broke, dont fix it. "

[Pudd]

"P.S As my sig says, "If it ain't broke, dont fix it. ""

When it comes to art (yes, i consider video games an art), the beauty of it is retained only for a certain amount of time, and the more it gets used, the more ordinary it becomes. I think mana is used as a crutch and can be improved on.

"you can change the name to focus, or anything else you want, but its still your magical power pool"

The main differences between focus and mana are that it is a certain energy that would be collectively used by many (if not all) types of players, and that it isn't magical.

"but a magic wielder should still be set apart from a fighter."
I agree, but a magic wielder would still be set apart from other forms of fighting because they attack with spells.

"The idea of having 75% of your focus drained and 25% for one action is silly, thats gonna slow everything way down and really make things unfun to play."
Please explain how it would slow things down and make things unfun.

"as for the religious suggestion, while i do like the idea of magic systems being the more occult type of religions, i don't like the whole "missionery competition" of having your deities strength grow by the number of it's followers."

"As for the religion part, well I'm just not a fan of religion in general, but this would make it alot harder for people who are trying to start their own religions in game as the Devs have said will be possible, and will just make people surge to one religion to be the most powerful, and in the end prolly cause the elimination of religious freedom, I can already see everyone joining on religion, to make it the most powerful, and then slaughtering the followers of another religion because they wont convert to help make them even stronger."

I never said I wanted religions to grow stronger when they have more followers. It's an interesting idea that would need a separate thread to fully discuss though.

[Kalafax]

MO devs have already said religions will get stronger the more followers and faithful, which is why I took it as that.

I think it would slow combat down and become unfun because after the first attack/spell your drained and from there you propose all the attacks be slower, weaker, take more strain, that seems like its really just overcomplicated combat, too much realism can be a problem, it is in the end just a game.

If they went with players having HP, Stam, and Focus, sure I could go with it if they really wanted it, but you'd have to lower the 75/25 alot more, you shouldnt be tired and straining after one or two attacks, thats only giving you a couple chances to use fullpowe then your just weakened the rest of the time, which could put off alot of people, maybe if you switched it to 10/5 it'd be viable.

[Pudd]

I was worried someone might think that it would drain 75% of your stanima in one sword swing. That would be very boring!

It's hard to explain, but what i really meant that about 75% of the drainage would be stanima while the other 25% would be focus. It may only drain 1/30 of your stanima and 1/120 of your focus, but the ratio is still 1:4. I hope that clears it up.

"I think it would slow combat down and become unfun because after the first attack/spell your drained and from there you propose all the attacks be slower, weaker, take more strain, that seems like its really just overcomplicated combat, too much realism can be a problem, it is in the end just a game."

I could see how that could take away some fun. I think of it this way though...

Group A is fighting group B for 10 minutes and group A finally wins. Group C (a smaller ally of group B) comes in and attacks group A. Since group A has been fighting for 10 minutes, they would be tired and should have a slight yet noticeable disadvantage.

It just adds another strategic layer in my opinion. Of course they shouldn't make the disadvantage so sever so that one of group C's people = 10 group A's people (that would just be annoying).

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by Pudd

This is what I meant when i said the two things below:

Heh, sorry Pudd, I read it all I swear... Iguess I was a bit too tired when I replied. I even looked over it a few times.

[Pudd]

no worries. I was tired when i wrote my first post and it ended up taking me like 20 minutes to write it in order for it to be readable ; )

[Phi]

Originally Posted by Pudd

"It doesn't make sense that if you become a wizard you suddenly have a new life source."

Who said it was new? The difference between wizard and warrior is the wizard disciplines himself to wield that already existing 'life force' while the warrior disciplines himself to wield a physical weapon.

Focus is not that force itself, rather it is the tool to use that force.

[Pudd]

If someone hits a baseball, he didn't use "mana" to hit it, since "mana" doesn't really exist. He used his strength and a little bit of focus. This is what I mean by a "new life source".

It would just make more sense to me if you cut out mana and instead use focus and a little bit of strength. If you like just having mana, that's fine too of course, we just have different opinions.

[Rathius]

In a lot of places, mana isn't really a pool for the individual caster. They are drawing that energy out of the world. It is a collective pool of energy for each of them to use. That's where the idea some have suggested is that the more people have a certain spell, the weaker it becomes. If you have a rare spell you are accessing a rare portion of the weave. Or there's the general, everyone access the exact same thing and all magic becomes weaker with more mages.

[Pudd]

That's a pretty good concept. Some ways you can build on that is if the spell is fire-based, its effectiveness is lessened if you are in a cold area, since there's not a lot of heat energy to draw from. If you're on a glacier, though, the effectiveness would go up. This could be applied to other spells too, like fire, wind, etc.

There would have to be some spells that are truly rare though in order for this system to be fun, like there's only several of a certain spell in existence.

*edit

Or, you could have mages draw from the heat, coldness, wind, etc. within a certain distance around them. If a lot of mages that are casting fire magic within a certain area, then only fire spells within that area would do less damage, since there's not a lot of heat energy left. [this idea came from traceur and original warhammer concept].

This could apply with what I was saying about drawing powers from the gods or goddesses that you worship. The more people that are using spells from that religion, the less effective it would be. This could counteract the problem that some people had about "zerg religions".

[Pudd]

added a poll since discussion seems to have died down. Please vote! information is in the first post.

[Phi]

i'd like to see mana, prana, chi,the force, cosmic energy.... what ever you want to call it, stay in as usual, but i also think stamina should also be deducted at the same time when casting magic

[Traceur]

you know this suggestion bags the question... instead of having stamina/focus management bars for all players, why not have a single energy bar showing exhaustion, both from mental and physical use? why do we need two separated bars?

instead of different attributes determining how much focus & stamina you have, each attribute would determine how tiring it will be to use that type of action. someone with a high inteligence would get less tired from concentrating on spells or complicated combat moves, someone with a high strength will get less tired from swinging a sword, etc...

[Pudd]

The first thought that popped into my head was to just remove mana bars and just have it linked to fatigue like you explained, trace. Being mentally tired and physically tired are two separate things, thought, and i think it would be better off if they were each represented.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Pudd

The first thought that popped into my head was to just remove mana bars and just have it linked to fatigue like you explained, trace. Being mentally tired and physically tired are two separate things, thought, and i think it would be better off if they were each represented.

physically the symptoms are the same - simply tiredness and exhaustion. biologically the brain is just another organ - tied to the same oxygen, nutrition and blood flow, overusing it is overusing the blood flow just like overusing your arm is. you could be too tired of lifting things up but still able to run (assuming lifting things up didn't cause back strain), loosing concentration is not that different in it's affect then overusing a muscle.

more so, looking on it from a gameplay perspective, it just makes more sense for an RPG to have one "resource pool" to manage rather then two. your fencer character shouldn't go "i'm out of stamina for sword swinging but still have some focus, now i'll take a step back and use fireballs".