Guild Emblems

[mshield]

a) Introduction

More and more people play MMORPGs and character creation and individual designs get more complex with every generation of games. This is why I want to talk about Guild Emblems and why I'd like to see them in the game.
I know there was a thread about this before but it wasn't as detailed as I liked it to be so I made my own.


b) So what are guild emblems?

An emblem is a logo and I think it's a good idea if every guild in the game can have their own logo.


c) Why should every guild have an own logo?

There are various reasons:

• You can find specific persons faster if you know their guild emblem
• It helps you identify your friendlies/enemies in large battles(*)
• Famous guilds will not only be known by their name but also by their guild logo
• If added as a crafter feature crafters will be happy
• It's additional customization

*remember that it is very possible that there will be no hovering names so this could be very important


The guild emblem could be displayed on capes (like in guild wars) where is plenty of place but it could also be displayed on banners in the guild hall for example.


d) How would the design work?

1) You can draw one yourself

• takes more time
• high customization
• abuseable
• Needs to be saved and so the size will probably be very limited
• more traffic

2) Choose from many possible combinations of color/lines/patterns/decoration (like in guild wars)

• takes less time
• not so high customization(*)
• not abuseable
• high resolution
• less traffic

*possibility of two having the same emblem


e) So what are the downsides?

• more traffic then without (*)
• longer developement time

*The more possibilities or the bigger the self drawn image the higher the traffic is. The higher the traffic the more likely lags and higher pings are.


f) Difference between mechanism d1 and d2 technically

I think own drawn emblems (mechanism d1) could create too much traffic.

My user picture for example is 100x100 and 31KB big. It's not that much but let's say there are 10 guilds around. And now you've got to give every person the information of every other guild. Let's say there are 5 persons each guild; that makes 50 persons. 50 persons * 31KB * 9 other guild logos = 13.6 MB of data needed to transfer.

The logos could be saved locally (once transmitted) so the traffic would only occur once per person per new guild. So you now only need to transfer an ID to the specific person which let's say is 32bit (which equals more than 4 million possible guilds/emblems). 32bit * 9 guilds * 50 persons = 1.76 KB. That's like 8000 times less.
Remember this is the scenario if everyone already has all the emblems of every guild stored on their hard drives!

If there were 1000 guilds with emblems it would make 30 MB of data every players local machine and also on the server (For the fun of it: it would make 585 GB of total data with 20 persons per guild).


By the way these 1.76 KB of traffic are also the result if you take the design through combination system (mechanism d2) and you would save the combination with 32bit (over 4 million possible combinations). No additional traffic!

This would make no data on local machines and 4 KB on the server.

(I hope these numbers are right^^)

So once nearly everyone has every emblem (probably after some weeks) mechanism d1 would not cause much more traffic then mechanism d2. But because you can't always be sure that nearly everyone has nearly every emblem it's probably a bit risky.
The saved data would be much larger but it's still on a good level.

g) Closing words

Well, I personally think the upsides are worth more than the downsides. You could argue about the traffic of own drawn emblems and about the abuse of drawing unsuitable things on the emblems but there's still the other method (mechanism d2) which you can't really complain about.

Let me know what you think about it.

[Joszek]

emblems in MO are crucial as I can't imagine participating in larger battle without emblems on my mate's gears.

ad. f) When it goes to player made emblems and the lag accompanying it I always wonder why all those emblems aren't packed in 1 file.

The process could go like this
1. Player creates an emblem, creates a guild in game and upload his emblem (whole guild creation process could as well take place via website)

2. once per week emblems are being added to MO world. At this point guilds whom's life is shorter than blinking with an eye, won't be considered in the process cause they just disband too fast.

3. server make postprocessing of all emblems (automatically cuts too large files, compress too heavy images etc.) and compress it into 1 archive

4. At given time whole file with emblems is automatically distributed to all players via game launcher.

This would prevent lags when meeting players having new emblems, which we do not possess locally.

Of course I'm fine with emblem combination system, as long as it provides large variety of possible combinations.

[Lachrymose]

i've always thought guild emblems would be a big plus, but i was never too keen on the self designed ones. not only could you just get some ridiculous emblems with boobs, dicks, etc. on them, but there would just be crappy looking emblems in general, and to me, seeing emblems that looked like they were created by a 6 year old would be an eyesore..

now, one way around this would be to have a system where players could draw their own images and upload them, where they would first be reviewed by a GM or maybe a couple before they could be used.

to be honest though, i think if there were enough options in terms of images, borders, etc. there wouldn't be much of a need for self designed emblems, and i would honestly prefer if this was the case. i just want to see plenty of variation between available emblem designs so that the chances of 2 people having the same exact one would be extremely slim.

[M-Demon]

While I think player made emblems would be enjoyable, I agree with Lachrymose said about them being too random, abusable, and hard to manage. Developers would not only have to come up with a system that allows players to create them but then also monitor them. For all we know, a symbol could get by devs that they didn't even realize was offensive ... and then some player creates a big deal out of it. I think this alone is why so many MMORPGs decide not to allow custom pictures in games.

Sucks it has to be that way.

I'm with Lachrymose again on another point; emblems being visually consistant. While some custom ones would look great, most probably would look like crap and no remain consistent with the rest of the games art.

All the developers have to do is come up with a large enough base of pictures all done by the same guy (or team) that allows for player customization by mixing and matching various emblem details. As long as the devs introduce enough variation in their own emblems as well as some diversity - while remaining true to the game and not being ridiculous (such as some of the WoW emblems for example) I think it can work fine.

But I'm not even a huge personal emblem guy myself. The only game I ever enjoyed guilds and managing was UO and even then, I was never strict about guild colors. I'd lay down a basis of what my guild colors would be ... and players were free to mix and match clothes using a few of those base colors, so there was always some continuity to the group, but for the most part I wanted everyone to be stylish. I thought the clothes coloring system was better anyway ... but I guess cloth coloring/emblem design would be better.

[Gisel]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

i

now, one way around this would be to have a system where players could draw their own images and upload them, where they would first be reviewed by a GM or maybe a couple before they could be used.

Don't you think it's easier to just use player notifications on other guild tabrs. Explain why the think like they do, if it's not obvious. Then the GM's can go trough the notes that players sent them and the get to the matter.

Some cons are that some poeple might not even get notified and some too notified. And ads can still be used..

[dawnofdeath]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

i've always thought guild emblems would be a big plus, but i was never too keen on the self designed ones. not only could you just get some ridiculous emblems with boobs, dicks, etc. on them, but there would just be crappy looking emblems in general, and to me, seeing emblems that looked like they were created by a 6 year old would be an eyesore..

now, one way around this would be to have a system where players could draw their own images and upload them, where they would first be reviewed by a GM or maybe a couple before they could be used.

to be honest though, i think if there were enough options in terms of images, borders, etc. there wouldn't be much of a need for self designed emblems, and i would honestly prefer if this was the case. i just want to see plenty of variation between available emblem designs so that the chances of 2 people having the same exact one would be extremely slim.

I second this

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Gisel

Don't you think it's easier to just use player notifications on other guild tabrs. Explain why the think like they do, if it's not obvious. Then the GM's can go trough the notes that players sent them and the get to the matter.

Some cons are that some poeple might not even get notified and some too notified. And ads can still be used..

actually no, i don't think it'd be easier. here's why: any emblem that would be controversial to GMs looking at them would most likely be controversial to the players as well. that means, instead of having the GMs look at them first, then declare them acceptable/unacceptable, players will see them, declare them unacceptable, and then GMs would have to look at them anyways.

granted, the ones that are acceptable wouldn't have to be looked at by the GMs, but if players didn't have to go through GMs with their pictures, i would imagine that there would be many more unacceptable emblems that people thought they could get away with, but making the GMs look at them first would deter many people from creating anything ridiciulous. so ultimately, there would be fewer emblems the GMs would probably have to deal with (since i believe the number of unacceptable emblems would most likely outnumber the acceptable ones). of course, i consider ugly emblems unacceptable, simply because, as i said before, they're an eyesore.

i don't want to see guilds running around in MO carrying around pink banners that say "Tyme 2 PWN" or something along those lines. it's not necessarily offensive, but it's most certainly upsetting to the gameplay experience. and since everyone has different opinions on what is acceptable and what isn't most likely the vast majority of emblems will at some point come into question and have to be viewed by the GMs anyways.

[Kaorn]

Guild Emblems are way cool!

[Snowky]

custom images should be allowed, but only through a long process so only bigger and more serious guilds would think about having one.

Else there should be alot of predefined images to select from

[Joszek]

Hmmm.... do we know anything about guild systems ?
If there were guild lvls, the choice would be easy.
1st lvl guild = emblem could be created only from pre-made emblem parts.
2nd lvl guild = beside couple addons, guild owner could upload a custom image - rest of the process I described above.
3rd lvl guild = guild mark on the front of armour ? :>

[mshield]

Originally Posted by Snowky

custom images should be allowed, but only through a long process so only bigger and more serious guilds would think about having one.

Else there should be alot of predefined images to select from

Originally Posted by Joszek

Hmmm.... do we know anything about guild systems ?
If there were guild lvls, the choice would be easy.
1st lvl guild = emblem could be created only from pre-made emblem parts.
2nd lvl guild = beside couple addons, guild owner could upload a custom image - rest of the process I described above.
3rd lvl guild = guild mark on the front of armour ? :>

Well, it could be a nice idea having a dual sytem and that you first need to achieve something as a guild to be able to choose the custom emblem option (even more work for the devs ).

But what to achive?

• A certain number of members?
• Completing a difficult quest?
• Guild existing for a certain time?
• ...

[Shinzon]

Well... If custom guild emblems arent in... Does it mean I wasted my time designing one for AI?

[Landor]

Originally Posted by mshield

Well, it could be a nice idea having a dual sytem and that you first need to achieve something as a guild to be able to choose the custom emblem option (even more work for the devs ).

But what to achive?

• A certain number of members?
• Completing a difficult quest?
• Guild existing for a certain time?
• ...

It would probably be certain number of members and Guild existence for some time. Also it could probably include how much land your guild controls too.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by Shinzon

Well... If custom guild emblems arent in... Does it mean I wasted my time designing one for AI?

No silly you're out of game image website etc is just as, if not more important than your in-game one. Your out of game image is not limited to any rules and you can create a true sense of what the guild is all about through your out of game logo. Although it would be nice to have both in-game and out-game guild branding the same, but I think we're still many years away from achieving this successfully in mmo's.

[Neek]

Make sure to include guild emblems on the world map when you discover the whereabouts of certain outposts/towns/keeps.

[Jimmmy]

Earn different symbols to put on your guild logo by discovering a area or defeating a boss i dont think that you should need to spend weeks or more on just creating your favorite design....

I want to be content from the start not always want what the biggest loser of the game has, give the little people a voice!

[OMGPIE]

Guild Emblems are a must and are just amazing.

[Resin]

I think an in-game vector based drawing tool that allows players to make customised designs, very small ones (I think 1kb could be feasible), would be awesome.

I would restrict it to a crafting skill. Guide lines about acceptable and unacceptible designs should be known, and repeat offenders could be banned from the profession.

Designs would merely be plans - that would generally be color independent - they could then be taken to other types of crafters to be woven into banners or embossed on sheilds or etched in rings - the colors would be determined by these crafters and the materials they used.

If anyone tried to rip off another guilds logo it would be up to the guilds to sort out right of usage via much violence.

Maps should be player crafted and sport the logo of the map-maker.

[Grizzler]

Originally Posted by Resin

I think an in-game vector based drawing tool that allows players to make customised designs, very small ones (I think 1kb could be feasible), would be awesome.

I would restrict it to a crafting skill. Guide lines about acceptable and unacceptible designs should be known, and repeat offenders could be banned from the profession.

Designs would merely be plans - that would generally be color independent - they could then be taken to other types of crafters to be woven into banners or embossed on sheilds or etched in rings - the colors would be determined by these crafters and the materials they used.

If anyone tried to rip off another guilds logo it would be up to the guilds to sort out right of usage via much violence.

Maps should be player crafted and sport the logo of the map-maker.

To be honest this looks like a very interesting feature. It would require some actual artistic skill from the maker and would allow him to make name for several guilds and thus in the complete world just by his craftsmanship. I can also see the respect for a certain crafter grow this way which would actually be a pretty cool sight compared to: "hey look he's a great crafter let's rob him!".

I really believe this could be worked out into something fun and rewarding for both crafters and guilds, again, great idea imo!

[Mosin]

I like the idea to but i doubt it could work without the proper restrictions. A simple freedraw would be chaotic. Even if we were to mod out all the penis/boob emblems, we would still have scribly eyesores made by middle schoolers and that kills a small piece of anyone who likes roleplay, or even just a fantasy setting in which to "pwn noobs" in. Having a review system for each logo would also be impossible so i purpose a system that limits freedrawing, relying on tools like circles, arcs, strait lines, etc. Unfortunately this would also have its limits in terms of creativity.

[NvsOne]

I think it would be good for a crafting skill. I think there shouldn't be any DIY emblems, a very customizable like the world of warcraft tabard maker you would never run out of thing to do with it. Or possibly there could be hundreds or thousands that were learned/dropped/randomly found, so say an epic dragon unlocked the ability to make a certain tabard that only that person could make

[Mosin]

I like that idea. Inserting new guild emblem pieces as they are made into... somewhere. But the idea of having to find them somehow is great. Perhaps, you can't make a dragon emblem until you have seen a dragon corpse and had time to examine it in some way?

[Grizzler]

Yea good idea awell.

And yes, I believe it would work that way, but.. why not? It would only be another reason for guilds to go out and find sick monsters / weapons / ...
It would be cool to see guilds demanding respect just by the looks of their emblems.

[Nihain]

Here is another idea:
Instead of letting it depend on the guild level if the guild gets an custom emblem let it depend on guild fame. Guild fame would depend on various things like:
-Number of members. If a member is active in the guild (party's...) and/or PvP is should give the guild more fame as an inactive one. You could also include crafting and selling items or even just hanging around in a tavern.
-The time the guild exists. As most guilds don't survive their first years older guilds already show that they are more as most the other ones and should be rewarded somehow. Also older guilds are more known by players as a new one. Maybe players are even telling stories about them?
-How much land the guild owns. If a guild rules an kingdom (or city ect.) it should have a custom guild emblem. If they can manage to run a kingdom they are worth it and would need it so they can put it on their flags, banners, armor...
-Guild member skill levels. Small elite teams or high skilled crafter companies (or whatever you want to call them) should have a way to earn some extra fame.
This way having a custom emblem would actually be worth something and saves the devs from chechking every guild emblem as they would only need to check if a guild has enough fame for a custom one and then check the emblem. But i don't think those guilds will just get some bet emblem. A guild could also need some fame for just having a guild emblem maybe?

[MetalNinja626]

i was thinking of a synthesis of both player made and in game made system. i mean it would be a waste for good guilds and good emblems not to be made.

what im thinking is that a new guild would have to make an emblem out of a menu. they will use this emblem for a month or so, maybe longer, to establish that this is a perminent guild, one that wont dissapear anytime soon. after the guild has met the time requirement the leader will be able to submit a new emblem that is custom made, to a player or dev review. this would, im my mind, let guild have their own emblems while keeping to many emblems from appearing for review.

[Mosin]

I support the two preceding posts.