Immersive skill levels

catmorbid · 3rd October 2008, 19:34

This is another completely theoretical speculation -thread, so if you despise those, you should go away

Anyway, I was just thinking how your character's expertise in a skill is represented in a game: How will the player tell the difference between how good the character is. The reason for this thought process is to find a way to make skill progression more immersive. In most cases, you have absolute knowledge of how good your character is at something, but in my opinion that's not the best way. Of course, in twitch based games the line becomes blurry, because player skill obviously has big influence. Still, when you reach the cap, you've reached the cap and you know it. The guy who lacks 6 points lacks 6 points, and he knows it. There has to be another option, so I began considering them. Here's a few:

Skill rating with absolute skill cap: You know what this means; you see a skill rating and you know there is a skill cap, and you know how how it is. at skill 25/100 you'd know you're still pretty poor at the skill at hand. This is what everyone is used to, so no need to explain it any further.

Skill rating with an absolute cap, with hidden numbers: Here we get a bit more immersive, so to speak. Instead of actual numbers, the player sees a broad abstraction of how good their character is. For instance, this could be done by replacing the actual number with an adjective equivalent to a range of values, e.g. "Novice(1-25), skilled(21-50), expert(51-75), master(76-100)". You could have many numbers running in the background, but players would only know an an estimate of how good their characters are. Some hate this kind, some would love, since it automatically moves your attention away from the numbers, and whenever you get a new rank, it's a real big thing, to be proud of.

Relative universal skill rank, with nearly infinite cap: This is something I just thought of. Basically, in the background you'd have your usual numbers, but to the player, the only information given is how good you are on a world scale. Meaning if you're the best, then you see "You're the best"

While not very realistic, it would give an interesting approach to the game, where some people would literally fight each other for the title of being the best. This would of course be done anyway, but this would just boost that

The rank would be based on the entire server population. E.g. If 25% of people have 1-25 skill rating, your expertise would be rated "Nothing special". Only the few top percentages would be the most competitive. In actual game mechanics, the nearly infinite cap would have to mean that Diminishing Returns would have to be applied, so that the higher you go, the smaller the difference between one point.

Personal scale relative skill rank: Here you could have skill rank based on how good all of your other skills are. With you knowing how much time you've spent playing the game and the personal scale where you clearly see how good which skill is compared to another skill, you'd have a pretty good idea of how good you are at something in overall perspective. This could be represented visually in a very simple way by using colours to represent your highest and lowest values and the ones in between - or maybe a visual bar where the highest is the most full and other scale according to it. You could also add a verbal description.

No indicator of skill rank: This measure would completely remove any familiar indicator of how good your character is. The natural problem to arise would of course be, how to give the feeling that you've improved? This is very important, because if you cannot notice the effects of a skill in any way, the skill system has failed. I'm having problems here, so if you think of anything good, tell me. One thing I thought of was environment's feedback. Npc's could comment your skill on something and so on. You should of course always be given notice when your skill has progressed, but having no indicator whatsoever would be very difficult swallow.

Feel free to express your thoughts and throw around new ideas. Thanks!

Gisel · 3rd October 2008, 22:45

Since it's a FPV-game and skillbased(not your kind of skill) what would i be good for? Is it to be able to wield better or special weapons or is it for maybe some kind of proc? So if I wileded my two-handed sword of eternal darkness and d00m i could get and shield splitting attack because of my high skill in two-handed swords

Which i learn't from the elder tentaclor int mountains that died after passing on it's knowlage. I am not the only one that has breached the "cap" of two-handed sword skills.

So there is some ways to get higher than anyone, but it would be rare and not too imba, like 0.001% change to get a shield split proc. This would be pretty awsome.

you could possibly teach this to other people if you want to, it's up to you*edit

Lachrymose · 4th October 2008, 04:30

to be honest, this is one of the places i feel immersion can take a back seat to... well, i guess the best thing to call it would be structure.

i wouldn't mind so much if the numbers were replaced with verbal indicators, such as novice, adept, gm, etc. but the other ideas i'm not too keen on. one reason is that i think it's better to have some kind of feedback on your progression, rather than being kept totally in the dark. for me, i like to know what my skills are at, and as you're leveling your skills, you may not even notice yourself getting much better, since you don't make drastic leaps, but you gradually gain skill. in addition, having defined caps and displaying progression allows me to set certain goals for myself when skilling up a character, and also, if there's a max overall skill cap (like in UO, you could only have 700 total points) then if, say, i want 50 points in one skill and 50 in another, i'd need to know when to lock those skills so they won't be leveled anymore. for others, that variable ratio reenforcement may be what keeps someone playing the game... i hate to say it, but the old carrot-on-a-stick ploy is a good way to keep people playing a game, and the more people playing, the better imo.

as far as having relative "skill ranks," i'd have to vote a big no on that one. i feel this would turn into a huge grind to get the highest skill in <insert skill>. if there's no absolute skill cap, then people will constantly be grinding away, trying to get their skills up as high as they can so they can be "the best." to me, anything that would promote unwanted features (in this case, grind) should be avoided at all costs.

Fortinbras · 4th October 2008, 08:25

I strongly believe that the rules of the game shouldn't be hidden from the players. I don't mind if there's an absolute cap or just diminishing returns on improving any single skill, but I want to know exactly how good I am at something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catmorbid

Relative universal skill rank, with nearly infinite cap

An interesting idea, but it seems like inflation would make it unworkable. If my skill level is defined in comparison to everyone else's, and I make a character six months after launch then I'll basically be doomed to be a "novice" forever even if I can manage difficult tasks with ease. I wouldn't be opposed to a title or something that says you're the best at what you do if you have the highest skill rating on the server though.

Stump · 4th October 2008, 09:30

Agree with Lachrymose. There should be numbers for Primary Skills, bu7t what about secondary skills, which have no skill caps? For them I wouldn't mind to hide the numbers.

Traceur · 4th October 2008, 11:39

ideally i'd like for the progression system to be completely invisible - you get the feeling of how good you are through the improved results, and naturally you can compare your results to your previews results or to the results of others around you (which players will do anyway) but it will be on a local level and not server-wide level.

that's being said, lachrymose is right - MOs progression system has too much micromanagement for an invisible progression system:
at the very least you have to know how much a primary skill/attribute is taking from your primary cap & what secondary skills are open to you at any given time.

it does however bring an interesting question to mind regarding MO's system.

Gisel · 4th October 2008, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

..into a huge grind to get the highest skill in <insert skill>. if there's no absolute skill cap, then people will constantly be grinding away, trying to get their skills up as high as they can so they can be "the best."..

wow... that sounds like oldskool Tibia in a box. This made the game really filled with bots. Anyway it's fixed now but Tibia has awlays sucked. And yes htere should be some kind of cap, invisible tough.

Traceur · 4th October 2008, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

I strongly believe that the rules of the game shouldn't be hidden from the players.

interesting principle Snufkin... I've heard you speak of it in the past...
and I'm curious whats behind it, because I'm directly apposed to it.

take for example the difference between an emulation and a simulation:
an emulation recreates the result
a simulation recreates the circumstances, the factors leading to the result.
now some of the game-mechanics will always be emulated - even if it got down to basic molecules & physics (extremely unlikely), that part would still be emulated. however the deeper the game rules are in the cause & affect chains leading leading to the visible results - the higher the "simulation value" is, the more immersive they will be.

now the added immersion of simulating mechanics actually isn't because the game mechanics are more realistic - this rule applies to unrealistic phenomena too - in AC you had to discover spells yourself - and before it all got posted on the internet - the result was a very immersive magic system. when you recreate magical circumstance rather then emulate the results it is still more immersive, despite not recreating reality. why is that?

because the deeper the computer game rules are in cause & affect, the more simulation happening determining the results of what happens, the less you can calculate the results in your head.
it is precisely because the game rules are hidden deeper into the game that you become more immersed - you have more moments in which you don''t calculate the gameplay in gaming terms, so you forget that it's a game and start thinking of it as a world.

it is why damage visualization is more immersive then HP, it is why when the determining factor is physics and location damage you get immersed into the fight instead of calculating DPS...

and bringing it back to topic, it is why with a hidden progression system you start doing what you like in the virtual world rather then micromanage & min/max stats.

catmorbid · 5th October 2008, 00:38

Traceur, you're with me on this. Sometimes some things just need to be hidden away from the player, to reduce unwanted consequences. And why I want to move away from the traditional skill visibility system, is the simple fact that it's not necessary. You don't need to micromanage your skills, all you need to do is Play the game, and improve while you're doing it. This means there shouldn't be any guides available for you to maximize your skill progression. The natural guide should simply be: "To improve, you must practice".

What I intended with this thread was to make people think about the current system and it's usability - to question it, and think of a better one. In PnP RPG games you can't do that (and you know my background by reading this thread), but in computer games you can remove the unnecessary indicators of how good you are. The question is, how will you do it, what means serve what purpose - what are they good for?! There are multiple ways, and with most probability, my mind is only restricted to few. That's why I need your help. Don't mind my primitive examples, think some of our own and tell us what we need to know =D

Rathius · 5th October 2008, 01:47

This'll touch on a few things already mentioned. But it's an idea, and I think they're kind of already using it, with the exception of hiding the information.

When it comes to using skills and abilities, there shouldn't be a dead on set requirment for skills/equipment. We can practice with anything, we just won't be as good with it. This translates into damage or efficiency. We don't need to see that we have 32 points in swordplay. If we try and pick up some new skill or weapon, we would notice that we aren't as good with it.

At the same time though, there could still be a "Your skill with 'x' has increased." This lets us know that we are progressing, and is similar to real-life when you're doing something and a particular way, or a certain meaning sudenly becomes clear.

Stump · 5th October 2008, 08:04

The stats and primary skills HAVE to be visible in numbers, in MO skill system. Thats the point, where you are planing your character, thinking about every step you will take to reach your goal: the perfection.
In most games I spend a few days just for planing what my char build will be. I reading the forums, guides, looking for more more detailed information, what items will suit me best, it just give me a big pleasure, by planning your character. It would be realy sad if the game would take it from me.

Also, in MO system you have to take your stats and primary skills to the some level, to "unlock" secondary skills. And here you HAVE to know in numbers, how much you have that stat and that skill. Also, here is the planning comes again.

The only skills where numbers can not to be shown, would be secondary skills, because they dont have a cap, they did not unlock nothing (did they?), you just know that you are getting better in it and thats enaugh. It is not necessary to know how much you have in it.

Gisel · 5th October 2008, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stump

The stats and primary skills HAVE to be visible in numbers, in MO skill system. Thats the point, where you are planing your character, thinking about every step you will take to reach your goal: the perfection.
In most games I spend a few days just for planing what my char build will be. I reading the forums, guides, looking for more more detailed information, what items will suit me best, it just give me a big pleasure, by planning your character. It would be realy sad if the game would take it from me.

Also, in MO system you have to take your stats and primary skills to the some level, to "unlock" secondary skills. And here you HAVE to know in numbers, how much you have that stat and that skill. Also, here is the planning comes again.

The only skills where numbers can not to be shown, would be secondary skills, because they dont have a cap, they did not unlock nothing (did they?), you just know that you are getting better in it and thats enaugh. It is not necessary to know how much you have in it.

Then you will have to train up to the skill you want. The reason is so people wont grind to have the highest skill of any type. This will lead to alot of abusing.

It will not make you incapable of planning you future, but just try your way to it. Like if you are gymming you cant really say exactly how strong you are, but you can test your way to the goal you'd set up. And you may possibly see differences. So if you train with a sword in the beginning you might be pretty crapp and swing you sword quite slow, but as you get better you learn more ways to use your sword and moves it faster.

It wont be exact but understandable.

Lachrymose · 5th October 2008, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stump

The stats and primary skills HAVE to be visible in numbers, in MO skill system. Thats the point, where you are planing your character, thinking about every step you will take to reach your goal: the perfection.
In most games I spend a few days just for planing what my char build will be. I reading the forums, guides, looking for more more detailed information, what items will suit me best, it just give me a big pleasure, by planning your character. It would be realy sad if the game would take it from me.

same here. i like knowing what my skills are at so i can more easily plan them out, as a huge part of player skill in a sandbox MMO is about designing your character well. that's why whenever anyone asks "what build will you be?" i always have to say "i don't know... yet." since i haven't spent the time researching the skills/spells/items that would all come into play when deciding what type of build to play. again, i think this is a case where gameplay is more important than immersion, at least to me anyways.

Rathius · 5th October 2008, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Clarification: You do not get skill points you can invest in skills. You simply gain in the skills you use. You don't get any "points" for killing something/anything, but you will get better at the skills you use in the fight.

The most planning you need is to acquire certain skill. I personally hate playing a numbers game with my character, and I hate it when games make you spend your points so precisely that you can 'screw up' your character idea. If I can unlock my skills just by playing the game, then awsome. I don't need to spend points to pick and choose things that may be completely unrelated to how I've been playing.

Stump · 5th October 2008, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathius

The most planning you need is to acquire certain skill. I personally hate playing a numbers game with my character, and I hate it when games make you spend your points so precisely that you can 'screw up' your character idea. If I can unlock my skills just by playing the game, then awsome. I don't need to spend points to pick and choose things that may be completely unrelated to how I've been playing.

[Edit] Lachrymose makes everything clear below.
But as in UO there is overall skill cap (for primary skills). You are planeing what skills you will have. The problem is, when you reach that point where you nomore need to rise more, you have to "lock it". O in the beginning of the game, you lock the skills which you will not need, and concentrate on the skills you are aiming.
If you played UO, then you know what I am talking about.

Lachrymose · 5th October 2008, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathius

The most planning you need is to acquire certain skill. I personally hate playing a numbers game with my character, and I hate it when games make you spend your points so precisely that you can 'screw up' your character idea. If I can unlock my skills just by playing the game, then awsome. I don't need to spend points to pick and choose things that may be completely unrelated to how I've been playing.

rath, that's not what i meant by designing my character, and i don't think stump meant that either. i didn't mean you would have "points" that you gain from killing things and spend them or anything. i mean, you gain skill points in a specific skill as you use it just like in UO. but.. since there will be some kind of cap (you can't gm every primary skill), you'll want to lock some skills and set others to go up... it takes planning. if i want my character to be a swordsman, then for example, i won't want my passive meditation skill to go up every time i die (in UO, meditation went up when your MP went up, and after you die, your MP drop to near 0), because that's less points i can spend in some other skill i may need for my build.

Rathius · 5th October 2008, 18:10

Nor should you be able to unlock/max every single skill/attribute. When you have a character in mind, just playing it should unlock what is neccessary without worrying about where your points are.

Lachrymose · 5th October 2008, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathius

Nor should you be able to unlock/max every single skill/attribute. When you have a character in mind, just playing it should unlock what is neccessary without worrying about where your points are.

yes, but the problem is, some skills will have skill requirements for certain benefits or to have access to certain abilities, rather than just gradual increases. now say the max overall cap is 700 like it is in UO, and i want to gm 6 skills, but there's 2 skill that i want to stop at 50 because some benefit or ability is attained from getting both those skills to 50. if your skill goes to even 50.1, you'll have to do a balancing act in order to get 50 in the other skill. you won't always know when that benefit is gained. in UO, there were times i had one skill at 80, one at 50, one at 70, and 5 at gm.

you may not always want all skills at 100, since a skill may have a great benefit at 80, but not much marginal benefit after that, so just using all your skills until they happen to stop leveling (b/c they're maxed out) isn't a good strategy to have a well designed character. that's what i meant by saying that designing your character's build is part of the player skill involved in MO, and allowing us to see where the skills are at lets us do that more easily, otherwise it sort of becomes a guessing game.

catmorbid · 6th October 2008, 03:02

The points presented against immersive skill levels are valid points. However, they are valid points only on a system described. Think about it: If the skill system was more intuitive rather than based on number crunching and facts, I believe it would be a lot more enjoyable. But that's actually a whole new discussion. What comes to immersive skill levels in MO, as said, such approach could work very well with secondary skills. But immersive skill levels is still something that would need to be a core design feature from the beginning. It's one of those things that easily becomes awkward if implemented on an already existing system.

What comes to character planning and such, I understand how it's important, and maybe it's something that shouldn't ever be changed in mmorpgs. However, I truly believe you could have a more enjoyable game experience without that. But it all comes down to what you're playing in the end.

Rathius · 6th October 2008, 05:36

Lachrymose, the feeling I get with what you're describing... to me feels like we might as well move to a system with a limit amount of 'active buttons' to use. "I don't feel like training the skill anymore, but yet I'm going to use the highest, most detailed skill I have, yet learn nothing new." Your skill would still go higher, you just wouldn't get the skill because you never used it or practiced it.

Lachrymose · 6th October 2008, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathius

Lachrymose, the feeling I get with what you're describing... to me feels like we might as well move to a system with a limit amount of 'active buttons' to use. "I don't feel like training the skill anymore, but yet I'm going to use the highest, most detailed skill I have, yet learn nothing new." Your skill would still go higher, you just wouldn't get the skill because you never used it or practiced it.

i don't really know what you mean. how would skills go higher without using or practicing them? what i'm describing is the skill system in UO, and MO's won't be much different than that. for example, we know that:

Quote:

Some skills give bonuses/abilities at specific marked values. For example, you could trot at 20% in riding, canter at 40 and gallop at 60.

so, say i don't care to be able gallop for some odd reason, which means i only want my riding ability at 40. getting it to 45, 50, or even 55 won't do anything for me, since i won't be able to gallop until 60. so to level it even 1 skill point above 40 would be a waste. how am i supposed to know when to stop? (this is a bad example because you'll know when to stop simply because you'll start cantering when you hit 40, but it won't always be the case that you'll know when you've gained an ability, as some will increase passive abilities that you can't necessarily observe).

catmorbid · 6th October 2008, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

so, say i don't care to be able gallop for some odd reason, which means i only want my riding ability at 40. getting it to 45, 50, or even 55 won't do anything for me, since i won't be able to gallop until 60. so to level it even 1 skill point above 40 would be a waste. how am i supposed to know when to stop? (this is a bad example because you'll know when to stop simply because you'll start canter

3rd October 2008, 19:34	#1 (permalink)
catmorbid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 650 Rep Power: 2	Immersive skill levels This is another completely theoretical speculation -thread, so if you despise those, you should go away Anyway, I was just thinking how your character's expertise in a skill is represented in a game: How will the player tell the difference between how good the character is. The reason for this thought process is to find a way to make skill progression more immersive. In most cases, you have absolute knowledge of how good your character is at something, but in my opinion that's not the best way. Of course, in twitch based games the line becomes blurry, because player skill obviously has big influence. Still, when you reach the cap, you've reached the cap and you know it. The guy who lacks 6 points lacks 6 points, and he knows it. There has to be another option, so I began considering them. Here's a few: Skill rating with absolute skill cap: You know what this means; you see a skill rating and you know there is a skill cap, and you know how how it is. at skill 25/100 you'd know you're still pretty poor at the skill at hand. This is what everyone is used to, so no need to explain it any further. Skill rating with an absolute cap, with hidden numbers: Here we get a bit more immersive, so to speak. Instead of actual numbers, the player sees a broad abstraction of how good their character is. For instance, this could be done by replacing the actual number with an adjective equivalent to a range of values, e.g. "Novice(1-25), skilled(21-50), expert(51-75), master(76-100)". You could have many numbers running in the background, but players would only know an an estimate of how good their characters are. Some hate this kind, some would love, since it automatically moves your attention away from the numbers, and whenever you get a new rank, it's a real big thing, to be proud of. Relative universal skill rank, with nearly infinite cap: This is something I just thought of. Basically, in the background you'd have your usual numbers, but to the player, the only information given is how good you are on a world scale. Meaning if you're the best, then you see "You're the best" While not very realistic, it would give an interesting approach to the game, where some people would literally fight each other for the title of being the best. This would of course be done anyway, but this would just boost that The rank would be based on the entire server population. E.g. If 25% of people have 1-25 skill rating, your expertise would be rated "Nothing special". Only the few top percentages would be the most competitive. In actual game mechanics, the nearly infinite cap would have to mean that Diminishing Returns would have to be applied, so that the higher you go, the smaller the difference between one point. Personal scale relative skill rank: Here you could have skill rank based on how good all of your other skills are. With you knowing how much time you've spent playing the game and the personal scale where you clearly see how good which skill is compared to another skill, you'd have a pretty good idea of how good you are at something in overall perspective. This could be represented visually in a very simple way by using colours to represent your highest and lowest values and the ones in between - or maybe a visual bar where the highest is the most full and other scale according to it. You could also add a verbal description. No indicator of skill rank: This measure would completely remove any familiar indicator of how good your character is. The natural problem to arise would of course be, how to give the feeling that you've improved? This is very important, because if you cannot notice the effects of a skill in any way, the skill system has failed. I'm having problems here, so if you think of anything good, tell me. One thing I thought of was environment's feedback. Npc's could comment your skill on something and so on. You should of course always be given notice when your skill has progressed, but having no indicator whatsoever would be very difficult swallow. Feel free to express your thoughts and throw around new ideas. Thanks! __________________ Judgement and Perserverance "There's more to the picture, than meets the eye" ESAK: Achiever 33.33%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 60.00% Questions about MO? Try this info summary! Follower of the Great Cat God Felissos

3rd October 2008, 22:45	#2 (permalink)
Gisel Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Age: 17 Posts: 74 Rep Power: 1	Since it's a FPV-game and skillbased(not your kind of skill) what would i be good for? Is it to be able to wield better or special weapons or is it for maybe some kind of proc? So if I wileded my two-handed sword of eternal darkness and d00m i could get and shield splitting attack because of my high skill in two-handed swords Which i learn't from the elder tentaclor int mountains that died after passing on it's knowlage. I am not the only one that has breached the "cap" of two-handed sword skills. So there is some ways to get higher than anyone, but it would be rare and not too imba, like 0.001% change to get a shield split proc. This would be pretty awsome. you could possibly teach this to other people if you want to, it's up to you*edit __________________ I dont know if anyone posted this before, since i'm too late to look trough the forum ok ok, late it's supposed to be lazy. The word "lat" in swedish means just that, and late is i guess a mixup. Pinkley.

4th October 2008, 04:30	#3 (permalink)
Lachrymose Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SC, United States Guild: Aegis Imperium Playstyle: PK/PvP Age: 22 Posts: 2,299 Rep Power: 6	to be honest, this is one of the places i feel immersion can take a back seat to... well, i guess the best thing to call it would be structure. i wouldn't mind so much if the numbers were replaced with verbal indicators, such as novice, adept, gm, etc. but the other ideas i'm not too keen on. one reason is that i think it's better to have some kind of feedback on your progression, rather than being kept totally in the dark. for me, i like to know what my skills are at, and as you're leveling your skills, you may not even notice yourself getting much better, since you don't make drastic leaps, but you gradually gain skill. in addition, having defined caps and displaying progression allows me to set certain goals for myself when skilling up a character, and also, if there's a max overall skill cap (like in UO, you could only have 700 total points) then if, say, i want 50 points in one skill and 50 in another, i'd need to know when to lock those skills so they won't be leveled anymore. for others, that variable ratio reenforcement may be what keeps someone playing the game... i hate to say it, but the old carrot-on-a-stick ploy is a good way to keep people playing a game, and the more people playing, the better imo. as far as having relative "skill ranks," i'd have to vote a big no on that one. i feel this would turn into a huge grind to get the highest skill in <insert skill>. if there's no absolute skill cap, then people will constantly be grinding away, trying to get their skills up as high as they can so they can be "the best." to me, anything that would promote unwanted features (in this case, grind) should be avoided at all costs. __________________ /thread I'm putting every one of you that thinks I'm a girl on my KoS list come release... ________________________________________________ Killer 100.00%, Achiever 46.67%, Explorer 46.67%, Socializer 6.67%

4th October 2008, 09:30	#5 (permalink)
Stump Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lithuania Age: 17 Posts: 356 Rep Power: 1	Agree with Lachrymose. There should be numbers for Primary Skills, bu7t what about secondary skills, which have no skill caps? For them I wouldn't mind to hide the numbers. __________________ Zenir: 1 cookie for Stump, you'll get it when we meet ingame and if there are cookies. Truth, Courage and Honor. <Lachrymose> if i take ANYONE.... i'm taking stump <Necromantic> guys like me don't need sleep ;P My idea of game physics usage Unomat/my idea of 24/7 problem solving

4th October 2008, 11:39	#6 (permalink)
Traceur Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,939 Rep Power: 8	ideally i'd like for the progression system to be completely invisible - you get the feeling of how good you are through the improved results, and naturally you can compare your results to your previews results or to the results of others around you (which players will do anyway) but it will be on a local level and not server-wide level. that's being said, lachrymose is right - MOs progression system has too much micromanagement for an invisible progression system: at the very least you have to know how much a primary skill/attribute is taking from your primary cap & what secondary skills are open to you at any given time. it does however bring an interesting question to mind regarding MO's system. __________________ stop looking at my post count!it's not a habit, it's cool, i feel alive.... welcome to the TBC! Last edited by Traceur : 4th October 2008 at 11:49.

5th October 2008, 00:38	#9 (permalink)
catmorbid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 650 Rep Power: 2	Traceur, you're with me on this. Sometimes some things just need to be hidden away from the player, to reduce unwanted consequences. And why I want to move away from the traditional skill visibility system, is the simple fact that it's not necessary. You don't need to micromanage your skills, all you need to do is Play the game, and improve while you're doing it. This means there shouldn't be any guides available for you to maximize your skill progression. The natural guide should simply be: "To improve, you must practice". What I intended with this thread was to make people think about the current system and it's usability - to question it, and think of a better one. In PnP RPG games you can't do that (and you know my background by reading this thread), but in computer games you can remove the unnecessary indicators of how good you are. The question is, how will you do it, what means serve what purpose - what are they good for?! There are multiple ways, and with most probability, my mind is only restricted to few. That's why I need your help. Don't mind my primitive examples, think some of our own and tell us what we need to know =D __________________ Judgement and Perserverance "There's more to the picture, than meets the eye" ESAK: Achiever 33.33%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 60.00% Questions about MO? Try this info summary! Follower of the Great Cat God Felissos

5th October 2008, 01:47	#10 (permalink)
Rathius Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kansas Age: 24 Posts: 446 Rep Power: 1	This'll touch on a few things already mentioned. But it's an idea, and I think they're kind of already using it, with the exception of hiding the information. When it comes to using skills and abilities, there shouldn't be a dead on set requirment for skills/equipment. We can practice with anything, we just won't be as good with it. This translates into damage or efficiency. We don't need to see that we have 32 points in swordplay. If we try and pick up some new skill or weapon, we would notice that we aren't as good with it. At the same time though, there could still be a "Your skill with 'x' has increased." This lets us know that we are progressing, and is similar to real-life when you're doing something and a particular way, or a certain meaning sudenly becomes clear. __________________ (Explorer 80, Killer 53, Achiever 33, Socializer 33)

5th October 2008, 08:04	#11 (permalink)
Stump Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lithuania Age: 17 Posts: 356 Rep Power: 1	The stats and primary skills HAVE to be visible in numbers, in MO skill system. Thats the point, where you are planing your character, thinking about every step you will take to reach your goal: the perfection. In most games I spend a few days just for planing what my char build will be. I reading the forums, guides, looking for more more detailed information, what items will suit me best, it just give me a big pleasure, by planning your character. It would be realy sad if the game would take it from me. Also, in MO system you have to take your stats and primary skills to the some level, to "unlock" secondary skills. And here you HAVE to know in numbers, how much you have that stat and that skill. Also, here is the planning comes again. The only skills where numbers can not to be shown, would be secondary skills, because they dont have a cap, they did not unlock nothing (did they?), you just know that you are getting better in it and thats enaugh. It is not necessary to know how much you have in it. __________________ Zenir: 1 cookie for Stump, you'll get it when we meet ingame and if there are cookies. Truth, Courage and Honor. <Lachrymose> if i take ANYONE.... i'm taking stump <Necromantic> guys like me don't need sleep ;P My idea of game physics usage Unomat/my idea of 24/7 problem solving

5th October 2008, 18:10	#17 (permalink)
Rathius Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kansas Age: 24 Posts: 446 Rep Power: 1	Nor should you be able to unlock/max every single skill/attribute. When you have a character in mind, just playing it should unlock what is neccessary without worrying about where your points are. __________________ (Explorer 80, Killer 53, Achiever 33, Socializer 33)

6th October 2008, 03:02	#19 (permalink)
catmorbid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 650 Rep Power: 2	The points presented against immersive skill levels are valid points. However, they are valid points only on a system described. Think about it: If the skill system was more intuitive rather than based on number crunching and facts, I believe it would be a lot more enjoyable. But that's actually a whole new discussion. What comes to immersive skill levels in MO, as said, such approach could work very well with secondary skills. But immersive skill levels is still something that would need to be a core design feature from the beginning. It's one of those things that easily becomes awkward if implemented on an already existing system. What comes to character planning and such, I understand how it's important, and maybe it's something that shouldn't ever be changed in mmorpgs. However, I truly believe you could have a more enjoyable game experience without that. But it all comes down to what you're playing in the end. __________________ Judgement and Perserverance "There's more to the picture, than meets the eye" ESAK: Achiever 33.33%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 60.00% Questions about MO? Try this info summary! Follower of the Great Cat God Felissos

6th October 2008, 05:36	#20 (permalink)
Rathius Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kansas Age: 24 Posts: 446 Rep Power: 1	Lachrymose, the feeling I get with what you're describing... to me feels like we might as well move to a system with a limit amount of 'active buttons' to use. "I don't feel like training the skill anymore, but yet I'm going to use the highest, most detailed skill I have, yet learn nothing new." Your skill would still go higher, you just wouldn't get the skill because you never used it or practiced it. __________________ (Explorer 80, Killer 53, Achiever 33, Socializer 33)