Cybersex is it cheating?

[Traceur]

in principle i agree but you must admit that the commonality of sexual themes in the rulesets of even open relationships is interesting. the definition of cheating almost never falls outside the realm of jealousy. people almost never just include things that make them mad in that list, or angry, or sad, or neglected, or offended... in principle it can be used for anything but it gets used nearly exclusively for jealousy.

[Illithid]

You want to contemplate a universals? It's true the bonds between people are essentially agreements with value that we weigh and act on.

I think jealousy is a more common theme because in the case of your other examples (angry, or sad, or neglected, or offended) these are contextual and generally don't show direct implications that another person is in the mix. so I could feel neglected but the relationship still holds the status quo and so can be changed. it's similar to short term and long term pleasure, peoples minds tend to have a really difficult time with this unless they are consciously thinking of it. the source and implication of jealousy is vary obvious to person and we act on it. It's a feeling that causes you to react more than it is one that is a result of your acts. that's why it's described as the cause more than another state. But resentment, resentment is a breaker... So why are jealousy and resentment different. One associated with cheating and not the other? I think I have an idea but I want to hear from you while I think this one through nicely >.<

[Traceur]

but in open relationships you have very thin lines. your used to having other people involved, but there are rules around that, from mutual choices to no one with emotional bonds to specific sexual conducts that are "only for us". full polyamory has even more subtle lines, especially if its not a fully bisexual group. but when those lines are broken, its still cheating. its still ends in anger, jealousy, a big fight and often someone ends up looking for a new apartment. so if its not in the involvement of others we can generalize it:

while, both jealousy and resentment can lead to a break up, one is an event and the other is an accumulation. your short term vs. long term examples.

[MetaControl]

I think the reason why jealousy is such a big fish, is because it is more on the ego-side. So we feel it more. Anger, fear and most of the others are a big part of jealousy too, which makes its presence so more perceptible.
I personally am working hard for many years to get rid of this big one. I see no point in jealousy. It is the fear of loosing, and the fear of loosing out. So we get angry, sad, embarrassed and much more at the same time. But this very basic cocktail of emotions is one of the most unnecessary ones.


BTW: @Illithid interesting choice for the new avatar some might read into that ...heh

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by Traceur

but when those lines are broken, its still cheating. its still ends in anger, jealousy, a big fight and often someone ends up looking for a new apartment.

True. Because it taps into our basic urges. It goes back to a very old animalistic stimuli, survival. Reproduction - in terms of basic biology for most creatures on this planet, including the primate species human - is considered a vital part of survival for the individual.
Which is why their was and is a constant struggle to get a proper mate.

If you loose a potential mate to a concurrent, you Ego activates triggers. Rejection of a mate, that has mated with someone else is not uncommon. After all, one would have to tend to children which might not even be ones own.

So there are simple reasons for jealousy. But as a (mostly) cognitive species, we can overcome such barriers.

[WarBow]

I agree with the dev that posted earlier. The problem here is motivation. What is it you are doing? Are you cybering because you're fulfilling lust or are you just goofing off?

I'd say most are actually doing both; in which case you are cheating. You're allowing lust to move you to an action or even the thought of an action.

Besides, cheating is just a PC term for infidelity or adultery. Now if you're not married well... you're cheating on somebody. peace

[Illithid]

Originally Posted by psm

BTW: @Illithid interesting choice for the new avatar some might read into that ...heh

>.< yeah, they could couldn't they . I wouldn't though, this is just a case when I needed a big beefy arm to satisfy Traces fantasies.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by psm

I think the reason why jealousy is such a big fish, is because it is more on the ego-side. So we feel it more. Anger, fear and most of the others are a big part of jealousy too, which makes its presence so more perceptible.
I personally am working hard for many years to get rid of this big one. I see no point in jealousy. It is the fear of loosing, and the fear of loosing out. So we get angry, sad, embarrassed and much more at the same time. But this very basic cocktail of emotions is one of the most unnecessary ones.

i don't know how much personal expirience of others can help in emotional dealings without coming down to projecting, but just in case:

i have "overcome jelousy" very differently in two relationships at two very different points in my life:
the first was itself part of the prolonged ego trip that defined me at the time, or to put it simply: i was an ego-maniac bastard and it was impossible for me at the time to conceive of anyone as a threat. we had our bubble, we where gods of that bubble, and everyone else was just... people. it probably sounds terrible from outside but that's how it felt.

the second was a lot healthier and a lot tougher to maintain: we both fall inlove with the same person. and contrary to common belief polyamory is not simple free love state, it actually means you have 4 relationships to constantly maintain and give attention too, 1 as a group 1 between each two individuals.

that doesn't mean i don't get jealous in relationships since, just that in those relationships i wasn't.

on the other hand i dont think "surpassing jelousy" is possible by working at it, for me at least trying to repress an emotion never works.

Originally Posted by Illithid

>.< yeah, they could couldn't they . I wouldn't though, this is just a case when I needed a big beefy arm to satisfy Traces fantasies.

you know me so well

[Illithid]

maybe forget about trying to suppress it. If you weren't vary self aware, suppress away that might be best. Once you reach a certain level of consciousness though you might just have to come to terms with the emotion (that doesn't mean you have to act on it okay.) Step aside from it. I've only known one person in my entire life that can do that but mreh. That sounds kind of mystical when I read it but it's not meant to be so.

[Traceur]

o, right, psm - i should have probably mentioned:

Originally Posted by Illithid

've only known one person in my entire life that can do that

you need a minimum of two.

seriously, never think your not into jelousy when the other side is and you agree to the different rulesets because i've seen that and it gets really really... well, pathetic. between women who know there husbands fucks around and accept it & men who get used as safety cards, that's not what getting over jealousy is for.

[Illithid]

I think we lost each other somewhere probably on my end sadly...

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by Illithid

>.< yeah, they could couldn't they . I wouldn't though, this is just a case when I needed a big beefy arm to satisfy Traces fantasies.

"say no more, I know what you mean, say no more. nudge, nudge." ^^

Originally Posted by Traceur

i don't know how much personal expirience of others can help in emotional dealings without coming down to projecting, but just in case:

Since most live in their own bubble, it usually doesn't...

Originally Posted by Traceur

on the other hand i dont think "surpassing jelousy" is possible by working at it, for me at least trying to repress an emotion never works.

It is more of a healthy understanding.
Repressing any sort of emotion (we are talking emotions here, not psychosis, or emotional outbreaks, which are usually due to too much repressed emotion) is more then unhealthy.

What I learned to do over the last 20 years of psychonautic studies is to understand my emotions. I let them happen. I feel them. But it is my conscious choice whether I am acting on them or not.

I allow my brain to signal me through emotions, but it is a collaborate effort and decision, on how I go forth with them.
So even if I am in complete rage, my conscious mind is with me and can interfere anytime.

The only way to eliminate jealousy all together is the form of relationship, most of us never experience. One where all included partners openly discuss feelings. And even is many of us think we do that, most of the time, most of us lie - because it is how we learned it, it's how we think, we can protect our relationships. Ultimately though...


The idea of having a polyamory relationship crossed my mind many times (not because of the sexual part - in that field I don't lack experience).
I do think that it would be, if all included partners are able to live the open minded relationship, that does not suppress anything, the ideal form of partnership.
For several reasons. Foremost it is possibly the easiest way to eliminate the insufficient-attention-factor. It would also compensate for the lack of emotional understanding and expression many men have. But this goes a little bit too deep and off topic now ^^

I still think the hippies were on to something, until the right wing decided "free love" is evil and undermined it...

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by Illithid

Once you reach a certain level of consciousness though you might just have to come to terms with the emotion (that doesn't mean you have to act on it okay.)
...
That sounds kind of mystical when I read it but it's not meant to be so.

I do believe that it is part of the evolution of our mind to step into the meta level, to understand how we work. I also believe, that i widens the range of choice and thus is giving you more free will.
So yes, it seems it should work this way.

Emotions are memory triggers. We hook information and certain reactions onto certain emotions. This is how we recollect that information. The cocktail in our brain is very complex and so an incredible range of emotions can be mixed, but there is an end to that rope somewhere.
And this is where consciousness steps in.

We can redefine, consolidate, rearrange, and re-program. This is the mind of the "homo sapiens sapiens". It is the moment of true self-awareness. The moment one may step into the oracle of delphi. The moment you know how you work and what you are, is the moment you can start to rebuild yourself in any way you see fit. And eliminating certain traits that are terribly outdated seems to be a good start

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by psm

The idea of having a polyamory relationship crossed my mind many times.I do think that it would be, if all included partners are able to live the open minded relationship, that does not suppress anything, the ideal form of partnership.
For several reasons. Foremost it is possibly the easiest way to eliminate the insufficient-attention-factor. It would also compensate for the lack of emotional understanding and expression many men have. But this goes a little bit too deep and off topic now ^^

the way you envision polyamory is completely different from how it turned out to be for me.

the insufficient attention factor doesn't get "cut in half", it tripples, there's no "amount of attention from [insert lover]" but there is the attention each sub-relationship needs, and the social dynamic of the 3 as a whole is more then the sum of its parts and requires its own attention. with having a wittiness to remember and 'coalitions' fights can really bad, often feeling like a trial, even over little things. you have issues from 3 different ways to be raised from 3 different pasts. "fairness" in a household chores gets even more difficult to sum (and do you know how many garbage rounds you need when its 3 people sharing the kitchen? ). even whats cooking gets difficult when one keeps kosher the other is anti-corporate and the 3rd needs exotic tastes or she dangerously looses weight.
with all that going on in your life you need to either be devoted to the extent you live & breath every moment for your relationship and somehow not suffocate under it all. time for yourself? forget about it.

...its not the dream world its cooked up to be.

Originally Posted by Illithid

I think we lost each other somewhere probably on my end sadly...

my last post was using your quote to say 1 isn't enough in answering psm

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by Traceur

the way you envision polyamory is completely different from how it turned out to be for me.

One of the reasons why I do not indulge myself in partnerships atm is due to all the things you mentioned. I think that every party need to overcome some very difficult, but essential flaws, with which we have been impregnated too much by society.
And I do not involve myself in petty drama bullshit.

I know it can be done, 'cause I have experienced it (single partner) on my own and at others. That it is that much harder if there are more then 2 involved is of course true. But if it works, so much the better...


As a species we are just reaching puberty. So it is understandable why so many have troubles working the modern-relationship-part out.
We are conscious beings only for a short time now and the all new meta-mind adds to the confusion.

[sinborn]

This is one of those "Ask your partner" kind of things. The fact is, you can't lecture your partner about how something that looks, smells and feels like infidelity "isn't." Conversely, your current partner might just shrug it off as storytelling and playing the game to a level that is satisfactory to its immersion level. Depending on their response, you'll find the answer most relevant to your particular state of relational being.

[MetaControl]

this and some other topics of the last weeks inspired my show for tonight. so make sure you tune in and forgive the hijacking ^^

[Pinkmoon]

Really guys?

I understand that some of you take role-playing very seriously... But, comparing to Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect and Dragon Age? These are not real people, they are computer characters. During these scenes I did not get off, nor was there any mutual compassion between the character and I (for this is impossible considering the character is not real and therefore cannot feel).

I am not a half-breed barbarian. I am playing one. If there was an option to have sex in Mortal Online, maybe I would partake... This does not mean that myself, the human student of real-world Earth would partake in any promiscuous activity. If we are seriously considering role-playing here, then technically my half-breed barbarian does not have a girl-friend. Since I am simply manipulating his likeness (as a single half-breed barbarian) I could therefore have all of the meaningless cyber-sex I want and still simply be maintaining my characters likeness.

So long as I do not develop an emotional and physical attachment(romantic love) to these online characters(which is, to me, asinine) I am in no way cheating.

I love my girlfriend. My half-breed barbarian does not. I am not a video-game character; my half-breed barbarian is.

As for maintaining a long-term, long-distance relationship over an MMORPG, the idea is, to me, ludicrous and ultimately inane in its intent in the first place.

Cybersex is not cheating; porn is more cheating than cyber sex. I watch porn occasionally and still maintain a deep love for my significant other.

[corbaer]

If you ask your significant other if it's cheating... their answer is the answer - in the context of the relationship that you share.

If the two of you disagree on the matter, then there are likely many other areas that you need to discuss to determine if you have a real relationship based upon compatibility, or an unhealthy one where you hide your true feelings (and thus your real self) from your significant other.

[Toimu]

Anyone taking Cybersex that seriously isn't happy with their relationship and would find some way to be better satisfied. I wouldn't call it cheating, but if my GF was going to someone else for something I should be taking care of, then it just isn't going to work out. Time to find a new GF. On the other hand, I love to flirt with women If there are some ladies in Vent with me, I tend to flirt, but in a fun joking way. I don't think my GF would call that cheating, but I do it in person also (when she isn't around of course). I'm not trying to get with these women, I just find it fun to speak to them this way, and I like the attention.

[brono]

According to my fiancé, it is.... Shhhh!

[Deathach]

Its not cheating if you get her involved in which one your character should bang. In fact you could probably twist it around into a humouros bonding experience.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Heskey

Traceur they're not talking phone sex here with someone they know; they're talking cybersex, with strangers; who are probably other guys.

there's an interesting bias there.. that i'm at fault of too tbh.

but lets say that you meet someone who is the sort of person that:
- if you saw at a bar or club you would make a go for.
- if you hanged around in the same places you would hook up with.
- if you were co-workers you'd probably both screw over the company laws.
how long exactly do you keep thinking, "n0, cause this is de internetz"?

[princereaper]

is mastabting by myself cheating on my wife with my hand? ( pretending i have a wife)

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by princereaper

is mastabting by myself cheating on my wife with my hand? ( pretending i have a wife)

the interesting part here is the definition of by yourself and a world where its not as clear as it used to be

[Alaeric]

Originally Posted by Traceur

first i don't consider NPCs cybersex - it might be pornographic but its a fictional character, innately no different then one in a book or movie. cybersex is only when both parties are sentient beings...

now, whether that is cheating depends on both your RL relationship and your virtual one. some cyber-relationships may be no more then two people writing an erotic story together - mutual masturbation - and as long as it doesn't directly affect your RL love life then the type of partners who'll get offended by that would get offended by there partners watching/reading porn and those sort of things as well. but if this comes instead or compromises an active love life with your RL partner then it has the same symptoms of cheating - its a big freaking sign that your not getting what you need out of your love life. sometimes you can fix it in better ways, sometimes you can't or one or both partners simply won't, but even then in some cases (like when there are children) they might choose to endure.

but if cyber-relationships can get emotional, then it doesn't matter that its cybersex, its really no different then if you would be building emotions towards a RL friend you don't have sex with, its comes to the bottom line of having romantic emotions towards people who aren't your main partner... but then there are open relationships that are fine with that too (while other open relationships are fine with RL sex but cross the lines when any emotional involvement comes in).

and in all cases, what is or isn't cheating entirely depends on the agreement between you and your partner, regardless on whether you have the emotional maturity & compatibility to communicate and reach one, whether its a real agreement or a lie covering actual disagreements, its going to be there hanging over your heads.

personally for me it depends for me not only on the partner but on the state of the relationship. my best relationships have being "primal relationships", meaning polyamory but in which the sense of supremecy of the main relationship over any other is crucial, and in such cases its not uncommon to have tempoaray partial-monogamy (degrees of what is allowed with others) periods for when the relationship to build more security. i have had only one relationship that as a couple we both fall inlove with a 3rd party that loved us back, but i find such cases rare.

as for cybersex, if my partner does it and doesn't share the resulting erotic literature with me i'd find it as frustrating as a partner who won't share her/his fantasies with me regardless of whether it includes cybersex or not.

as for perpetual monogamy, i can do it but i find it emotionally cost - i can do it but it will always feel like i'm doing it for someone else's sake, and when it breaks instead of being jealous i get angry that i had to work so hard to keep a deal i was uncomfortable with to began with.

I am going to save my fingers and just QFT this in entirety. Even the single relationship that worked out that way part as well as that is exactly my own experience and view on this subject. Always nice to see someone else who shares my view so closely as to keep me from writing a book of my own. Kudos and thanks for saving mah fingers a bit.

[princereaper]

you Cant have sex, cyber sex is fake, its another form of mastabation man.

you can't cheat on your wife with your hand.

[Illithid]

Originally Posted by princereaper

you Cant have sex, cyber sex is fake, its another form of mastabation man.

you can't cheat on your wife with your hand.

What if your hand started talking. Carrying out conversations, maybe even denying to jerk you off because it wants to show you it's wet palm...

[gamerphate]

I am not a religious man by any means but I am spiritual and karmatic.

One of those old books talks about the idea of the act is the sin it's self. So just be looking or thinking about doing such a thing is as bad as doing it. So, might as well do it right?

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by princereaper

you can't cheat on your wife with your hand.

Sure you can. If she sees it as cheating, you do. And I knew a woman who said that if he masturbates, then she is not enough for him; and that she did consider it cheating. Whether that might sound right to you or not, in her moral view, that is the truth. If you are her man and do not comply, there will be repercussions.
Hence it can be cheating.

Besides, there is the human factor involves in CS. Although it is just a virtual thing and has no material involvement, the partners choices are made by a human.

While a sexual relation over the net may not compromise your real live, it does involve another human being and that could be real enough for some...

Originally Posted by gamerphate

I am not a religious man by any means

But maybe just as shortsighted? Morality is defined by those involve into any social interaction. If they define sexual thoughts a sin, then it is. If they consider a sodomite mass fucking on the main plaza of their town a perfectly normal thing, then that is just as true.

[corbaer]

Originally Posted by Illithid

What if your hand started talking. Carrying out conversations, maybe even denying to jerk you off because it wants to show you it's wet palm...

TacoTacoTaco TacoBuuurito... ooh Ben, I love you Ben.

[Illithid]

Originally Posted by corbaer

TacoTacoTaco TacoBuuurito... ooh Ben, I love you Ben.

wtf dude I can't even respond to that pissant, how could I sobre?
Edit: the morning comes and I get it rofl... thanks for the intigration of mexican culture into this tread^^

[Illithid]

Let it slide. Is all I can say. It's not as personal as it seems...

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by Illithid

Let it slide. Is all I can say. It's not as personal as it seems...

It is not so much about the neg-rep. I am really just looking for clarification. I do not understand what the comment meant, but I would like to...

Edit: has been clarified - previous post deleted.

[corbaer]

Sorry... didn't mean to cause any dismay. Thought that it was a pretty obvious reference, and on topic.

[Illithid]

No dismay, you are right it's obviouse... when you aren't drunk ^^

[Mirplayer]

I don't even consider kissing cheating

[Midkemma]

IMO yes and no, depends on the person who you are and what type of person your partner is.

I'm guessing trust comes into this a lot, if you trust that your partner truly loves you then it isn't cheating but harmless flirting, if you havn't got that trust then it's as bad as cheating. If you know you got a insecure partner who would feel threatened by you talking dirty to a stranger then just don't do it, it hurts them and can be as bad as actually doing something.

If your not sure then just ask your partner to talk dirty with you to the other player online, let them see it's harmless fun and you never know, you might have some 'extra' fun later on that night

hope that made sence...

[Traceur]

so apparently it is... on other cybersex partners.
learn new things everyday

[MetaControl]

Originally Posted by Traceur

so apparently it is... on other cybersex partners.
learn new things everyday

Sometimes it is not about the sex, but what lies beneath... there is too much fuss about sex anyway (from all directions).