Macroing / afk Macroing during Beta

[Maerlyn]

As those of you who read the EULA (and thats everybody, right?) know, using any kind of 3rd party program to "help" you in the game is forbidden.
This is especially the case when it comes to macroing software.

Since we need to test out the crafting system we will NOT take any action against players who macro or afk macro in the game when it comes to resource gathering.
I also had a word with Henrik about making material gain in beta faster so there is no more "grind" and you guys can test the hell out of the crafting system. I hope this will be changed within the next 2 days.

So: macroing/afk macroing during Beta: fine -- after beta: breach of EULA with consequences.

Cheers,
Maerlyn

[Gobwar]

Thanks for information!

[iZakaroN]

Why not make gathering not repeative or just make it automatic? Whats the point with boring repeative clicks? Maybe make it that player have to react on different event in the process of gathering that affect quantity/quality of the resource and also affect durability usage of the tool?

[[|Falcon|]]

thanks mate

[tam]

So after Beta every sane person will have zero gathering skill and the game economy will be based on those with so little to expect from their lives they actually enjoy pressing the same button every five seconds over and over? Or will there be some fun put into gathering?

Since I do not expect gathering to change much, I say change the EULA to allow for macroing. With the possibilities to get killed while afk or your goods stolen, or the node to deplete ever so often while you are farming it, what is the harm?

[Tyx]

Good job Maerlyn, this should speed things up while testing by far.

Originally Posted by iZakaroN

also affect durability usage of the tool?

If we break our starter axes, we are in biiiiiig trouble.

[Laviathan42]

What a bunch of welfare bums. Its the grinding (Work) that adds to the intrisic value of an in game resourse. Its boring (That means its work) to harvest so since everyone dosnt want to do it, it adds value to the item for the willing to WORK to make the item for YOU ( The person unwilling to Work).
You want a gazillian of afk resorces that you didnt work for? Then your lazy and SHould pay crafters more.
OK, now let the crying and moaning begin .....

[tam]

Originally Posted by Laviathan42

What a bunch of welfare bums. Its the grinding (Work) that adds to the intrisic value of an in game resourse. Its boring (That means its work) to harvest so since everyone dosnt want to do it, it adds value to the item for the willing to WORK to make the item for YOU ( The person unwilling to Work).
You want a gazillian of afk resorces that you didnt work for? Then your lazy and SHould pay crafters more.
OK, now let the crying and moaning begin .....

lol, do you have a job in real life? Because for people who do, games are for recreational purposes, not more work. :P But sure if there are enough people willing to work for no real life purpose and people like me have in-game means to pay them for their work without having to work ourselves, then I am all down with work in a game. What we need now is a way for non-gathering players to generate currency to pay those who do gather other than killing the gatherers, obviously.

[BlindMonkey]

Afk macroing is disruptive to the economy because it allows you people to gain resource above and beyond the time they can normally invest to play the game. (it also ruins immersion)

We can mainly agree that if you played 24/7 you will be more succesful in game than someone who plays for 1 hour a day. The balance between the two extremes is skewed by afking as everyone becomes a 24/7 player and the world is flooded with resources and robotic mining players.

Of course you could balance the game around having more of a glut of resources in the game and allow afk macroing - but then it should really be a game feature in itself.

I will not be sorry to see the back of afking (though I find it a useful tool for beta). What I do find odd is the exlcusion of attended macroing. You are still investing the same amount of your play time (actual play time, not additional 'playtime' because you are sleeping in your bed) as someone who sits there and presses the button.


I wonder whether resource node depletion will make it seem less wrist grinding.

I type all day at work, I don't welcome the idea of pressing a button repeatedly and aimlessly when I get home - though i am happy to invest my playtime in the game task of gathering.

[dandy]

Originally Posted by iZakaroN

Why not make gathering not repeative or just make it automatic? Whats the point with boring repeative clicks? Maybe make it that player have to react on different event in the process of gathering that affect quantity/quality of the resource and also affect durability usage of the tool?

This. Macros succeed where the game design is fail.

[epic_one]

Originally Posted by Maerlyn

I also had a word with Henrik about making material gain in beta faster so there is no more "grind" and you guys can test the hell out of the crafting system. I hope this will be changed within the next 2 days.

i hope very much that this is implemented soon for beta testing, having afk macro bots set up whole day and griefers/thieves running around sucks hard for betatesting, (i dont even betatest atm because of all this (and i am not the only one i think)).


for release we definitively need another farming system, and overall a new system for all actions you need to press a button every three seconds.

like increasing the time of that action to 30 seconds or even more (and making it interruptable while in action by moving or another action), or implementing a kind of auto repeat.

going afk while doing something with auto repeat is very dangerous because of griefers who push you around, pks who kill you or thieves who steal your things, so it should not be illegal to do so.

[iZakaroN]

Originally Posted by dandy

This. Macros succeed where the game design is fail.

Agree!

[Ruin]

A guitar hero/audiosurf minigame should pop up upon using a gathering skill where your success in the minigame determines your gathering efficiency. If one utterly fails at it then gathering is aborted and you accidentally chop your legs off

[Dimez]

Originally Posted by Ruin

A guitar hero/audiosurf minigame should pop up upon using a gathering skill where your success in the minigame determines your gathering efficiency. If one utterly fails at it then gathering is aborted and you accidentally chop your legs off

As long as there is support for the guitar hero controllar i agree with this

[naughty]

Originally Posted by dandy

This. Macros succeed where the game design is fail.

yep...same shit as in darkfall

[Ebonwulfe]

Hmm, might I ask that there is some form of text(chat) macro program implemented in game. In UO, you could create "Guard! <insert text>" chat macros; I currently use a guard/loot macro to combat thieves in game.

As a solo player, it is highly improbable that you can recover stolen items from a teamed pair of thieves(one steals/gets guarded, the other is at the ready to loot) without such options.

[Cyberraptor]

afk macroers will allways exist in a skill based program, and if its only the software that have restrictions, then i suppose those G-keyboards that have a "record" function also belongs under that category, since the keyboard needs software to work

but macroers will allways exist, becours its 1 way to gain skills fast, whenever they are afk or not is a diffrent matter tho..

also if you wanna get rid of afk resource macro gathers, there is only a few solutions :

1, make the gather use specific tools with durability, so the tool will break and they need to replace it, since there is only so many slots in your inventory filling them out with tools will reduce the amount of ore you can get at 1 point, but even this will work a lot better together with "2,"

2, make all resource nodes have a capasity, which regenrate over time, but which can also go completly empty, (and a cool feature is if the empty nodes change there animation to look empty, so FI the stone dissapere and leaves behind rubbles, a tree changes to a treestump, and so on for the varioues resources.

(3,) a small problem would be with gathering water from a river tho, how can that possibly ever run out :P

these are somthing i would love to see in MO, but obviouesly for the purpose of testing the crafting, i think this addition that was posted in the original post is great, it will certienly speedup testing a hole lot.

all along i have been wondering why it wassent possible to buy gold and silver for free from the vendors, and then just have vendors sell all other materials for the purpose of testing...

[Cyberraptor]

Originally Posted by epic_one

i hope very much that this is implemented soon for beta testing, having afk macro bots set up whole day and griefers/thieves running around sucks hard for betatesting, (i dont even betatest atm because of all this (and i am not the only one i think)).


for release we definitively need another farming system, and overall a new system for all actions you need to press a button every three seconds.

like increasing the time of that action to 30 seconds or even more (and making it interruptable while in action by moving or another action), or implementing a kind of auto repeat.

going afk while doing something with auto repeat is very dangerous because of griefers who push you around, pks who kill you or thieves who steal your things, so it should not be illegal to do so.

total agree, make the players combat afkers and such, thifes will have there fun out of it, pkers will get somthing to do, and thereby its oure job insted of the GM's to clearup the trash and distribute the afkers mass hoards of resources, i like this a lot better than having to be scared shitless of an EULA that says you have everyright to kick my butt if i as much as sneeses in the wrong direction :P

macroers and afkers will allways happen, and for everyone you catch 10 gets away unleas there are viable options for the rest of the gaming population to combat them as well. :-)

[excalaber]

Since it's pretty clear we'll be playing a 'beta' version of the game for several months after the 'release'...when exactly will macroing become illegal again?

....hehe just kidding! I kid...

[Liquid Wolf]

I understand the announcement.

I have a keyboard and software which gives me macro features. Quick Recording, organizing, repeat options, and other nifty things. I use it when gathering resources.

I have it set up to appear as "human" as possible which includes small jumps, turning left to right, and generally the normal stuff a person does who is bored of clicking away. Variable times between actions too.

I am always at my computer when Mortal Online is on, even when macroing... to not do so is to invite yourself getting killed and looted.

Now, I'm not going to ask if this is "alright" because ultimately I do what I need to in order to enjoy my game time and achieve my goals. I don't blame Star Vault for the Resource Gathering system, because ultimately the whole MMO industry has not found anything better.

But the situation is what it is. Whether that means someone leaves their game on over night macroing, or sits there and baby sits their computer as it grinds away... We need to gather resources.

And we do what is necessary to gather the required resources with the least amount of stress to us, while still trying to not cross that line that developers and moderators lay down.

Gathering, in it's current form can not be fun, nor do I expect, will it ever be fun. It is an annoyance at best, and many of us will find solutions to ease that problem.

I don't ask that Star Vault be lenient with this Macro rule/warning... I ask you to experiment and change the ways your players gather resources. Be creative so that this PROBLEM which encourages macroing is removed.

There are hundreds of alternatives peppered all over the internet, each one worse than the current implementation... but somewhere out there is one, or a combination of many, that will work.

Let's try to find it.

[thatguy]

Originally Posted by Liquid Wolf

I understand the announcement.

There are hundreds of alternatives peppered all over the internet, each one worse than the current implementation... but somewhere out there is one, or a combination of many, that will work.

Let's try to find it.

GUITAR HERO

[Brazlar]

This was also a problem in Darkfall. First, nodes were undepletable, which was a macro heaven. Then, when nodes became depletable, and the automatic system was stuck in (one click, then it continues till the nodes empty) it was a bearable, at the keyboard exercise then for everyone. Although tbh, i was never at the keyboard since the game allowed me to macro built in. (i dont bother with em, macro's, their for lame gamer's)

It still lacks flavour thoh.

Age of Conan had random spawns, jumping in an assualting you during the gathering process, and the mob/s often dropped resource, which was good, since u didnt really lose time fighting them as such, as you were rewarded.

Not sure if this is the best route to take however. Specially in a full loot game, where you aint gonna wanna wear a battle get-up while harvesting. (i do usually thoh ......but many dont)

Perhaps throw in a dash of realism to break up the macroing.
Ie) If your chopping a tree, your axe gets stuck every now and then. You then have to bosh "s" a little, then a bit of either "d" "w" until your axe comes loose. Maybe just shake the mouse side to side while holding a key. With random removal keys to push, and perhaps a bigger durability loss on your harvest tool, should you screw up the retrieval manouver, macro harvesting will be reduced, and those doing so will need more harvest tools on their person, and complexitised macro's to overcome this feature.

Clicking for every swing however, should NOT even be considered. One click should surfice for 9/5/15 swings, then you hit a wood knot, requiring at keyboard presence to unstick yourself. If you used this system, just make sure the harvest tool sticking feature isn't a majorly high probability.
Perhaps receive a half craft mat drop, once you've unstuck ya tool's.

You Dig?

[Brotic]

Auto farming kills the game it killed the uo economy

[epic_one]

depletable nodes must also be in of course

i never played uo but auto farming is no problem with a good economy system and as i said before you can't just autofarm afk because of griefers pks thieves etc.

[lonewolf9567]

few i thought that you were gonna say that you have to mine 150000 ore to make 150 pig iron all by yourself. FEWWW thanks for the info. as long as resource macroing is ok

[Gnome]

I started out doing it manual but got my shoulder strained from all the clicking and soon turned to a quick G15 macro that I´m currently using. I only macro attended so I dont loose my stuff to thieves and gankers as easily. Of course there is exceptions as getting coffee and stuff like that.

I understand the "no macro" standpoint in the light of economy I also see that
manually clicking every 3.5 second on the same button quickly becomes very tedious and harmful for players. Even if you take many brakes, there you are again, clicking the same button and straining your arm over and over. Mentally and physically its not ideal to do the same monotonic movement for extended times. (sidenote: thats why we got orgasm ^^)

Seriously, gathering is one of the most important and most commonly used skills in the whole game and its going to need some attention to releave the stress it will induce without macros.

[Dunraven]

I'd love to see Harvesting take on a "mini-game" aspect something along the lines of how EQ did it but even simpler would be fine.

It would add some extra realism and stop macroers.

i.e. Woodcutting finds knots or splinters and requires different keypresses to solve.

Surely something along these lines might be added to each gathering resource type and it could even be made into a feature where better "success" at the mini-game makes for better resources or extra rare finds occassionaly.

[Versatyle]

To be honest, if attended macroing is not allowed or if there isn't a way to do so in game OR a nice reward for your wasted time pressing a single button over and over, I doubt I and many other people will willingly do so. It's definitely not a smart move on SV's part to include a game mechanic that forces players to use a macro to mine effectively, but inserts no macro ( for lack of a better term) of their own.

[kelendil]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I started out doing it manual but got my shoulder strained from all the clicking and soon turned to a quick G15 macro that I´m currently using. I only macro attended so I dont loose my stuff to thieves and gankers as easily. Of course there is exceptions as getting coffee and stuff like that.

I understand the "no macro" standpoint in the light of economy I also see that
manually clicking every 3.5 second on the same button quickly becomes very tedious and harmful for players. Even if you take many brakes, there you are again, clicking the same button and straining your arm over and over. Mentally and physically its not ideal to do the same monotonic movement for extended times. (sidenote: thats why we got orgasm ^^)

Seriously, gathering is one of the most important and most commonly used skills in the whole game and its going to need some attention to releave the stress it will induce without macros.

I agree. Completely deny resource macroing will bring me to madness.

[Kiev]

Originally Posted by iZakaroN

Why not make gathering not repeative or just make it automatic? Whats the point with boring repeative clicks? Maybe make it that player have to react on different event in the process of gathering that affect quantity/quality of the resource and also affect durability usage of the tool?

this.
It is damn annoying where Devs choose to just punish people for poor game design, how about instead they think up a less mundane gathering system?

[Psyknx]

If its against the rules get ready to ban everyone.

[serith78]

If you don't want AFK macroing....then don't make the resource system a giant darkfall style grind. Alot of people bought into MO on the premise that it wasn't going to be yet another giant macro-required grindfest of a sandbox. If massive numbers of people are macroing, its' the fault of the dev team for bad/grindy game design.

[sCouraGe]

Thread shoulda been locked after OP IMO.

[Artorius]

Originally Posted by Maerlyn

after beta: breach of EULA with consequences.

Cheers,
Maerlyn

Good. No form of cheating (including macroing) should be tolerated .

To all the whiners, read this;

Bored of gathering ? Do something else.

Macro gathering is cheating because a third party program is playing the game for you. It reduce resources value since you do not gather it yourself and it's unfair competition for legit players. Basically, SV must choose between legit players or cheaters.

Cheat all you want in a singleplayer game, do not cheat in an online/multiplayer game.

With that said, some task in MO could be a little less of a grind and/or more entertaining (mini-games).

Still waiting for depletable resources

[Fanatik]

Originally Posted by Maerlyn

So: macroing/afk macroing during Beta: fine -- after beta: breach of EULA with consequences.

People will always Macro. As long you need ~200.000 stones to get decent in a skill, which is as complicated as pressing a single key for hours. People will use macros. I honestly dont understand why its not just activate/deactivate with crafting... with freePVP and thievery afk macroers will get punished by mutual law.

Just banning ppl for doing it, is kinda not facing the problem here

[BlindMonkey]

Originally Posted by Artorius

Good. No form of cheating (including macroing) should be tolerated .

To all the whiners, read this;

Bored of gathering ? Do something else.

Macro gathering is cheating because a third party program is playing the game for you. It reduce resources value since you do not gather it yourself and it's unfair competition for legit players. Basically, SV must choose between legit players or cheaters.

Cheat all you want in a singleplayer game, do not cheat in an online/multiplayer game.

With that said, some task in MO could be a little less of a grind and/or more entertaining (mini-games).

Still waiting for depletable resources

Read my post above mate

The main loss in value comes from afk macroing extending game time beyond what a player could achieve. If you are trying to add value to a task by making it uncomfortable beyond investing your gaming time in it then where does it stop?

Increase value of mining by flashing the screen to cause headaches? Screeching sound effects to make it unpleasant? Over the top examples, but along the same line as forcing people to press a button at the expense of their wrists.

If they are investing the same time (attending macroing) as someone mashing the key without any skill then it should be ok imo. The best solution would be to allow this in game as a toggle for gathering. Let resource node depletion and other game mechanics make it hard to afk macro, develop tools to guess who is doing it and work off those for more solid evidence.

Either way, at the current expected amount of resources you need to gather you will generate a really interesting new economy based on scarcity and interaction.... but only if people are willing to melt their brains and wrists in the process.

Seeking to make gaming uncomfortable is crossing the line for me (which is the point so far raised against automated attended gathering). Investing actual time into the process should be more than sufficient.

[sCouraGe]

Originally Posted by Fanatik

People will always Macro. As long you need ~200.000 stones to get decent in a skill, which is as complicated as pressing a single key for hours. People will use macros. I honestly dont understand why its not just activate/deactivate with crafting... with freePVP and thievery afk macroers will get punished by mutual law.

Just banning ppl for doing it, is kinda not facing the problem here

They diddn't say they would ban, he said consequences. That could simply be dickslapping you with statloss or clearing out your bank.

[Calidor]

Originally Posted by Artorius

Good. No form of cheating (including macroing) should be tolerated .

To all the whiners, read this;

Bored of gathering ? Do something else.

Macro gathering is cheating because a third party program is playing the game for you. It reduce resources value since you do not gather it yourself and it's unfair competition for legit players. Basically, SV must choose between legit players or cheaters.

Cheat all you want in a singleplayer game, do not cheat in an online/multiplayer game.

With that said, some task in MO could be a little less of a grind and/or more entertaining (mini-games).

Still waiting for depletable resources

Here's the problem. They are banning something that they will have no way of enforcing. I highly doubt that they have some secret code which will detect a G-15 keyboard working it's magic on the player side. Other games have also "banned" macroing.. but without a legitimate way to enforce it.. it really just rewards the cheaters. Honest players see the policy and won;t do it. Dishonest players will continue to abuse it.. and since the honest ones aren't gathering as much resources or training skills as fast.. the cheaters reap double rewards.

yes.. you can have some report system where players rat on each other.. but you will find whole guilds banding together to exploit the macroing.

Bottom line.. it's almost impossible to ban an action that you cannot monitor...

[Sebren]

Yea how come that guy in that tv series.. uhhh.. o yeah LOST! he gets to push a button every 108 minutes or something and SAVES THE WORLD and we gota push a button every 3 seconds just to mine 15 ore.

C'mon now!

Why not make it so when you press the mining button you can mine for 5 mins without stopping... this gives people enough time to wash the dishes, go for a smoke, take a piss, have a quick poop, make a quick stop at a porn site, grab a snack, or simply go upstairs to your landlord and tell him to stop making noise for bloody sakes!

I think the 5 minute gathering feature would make MO a favourite amongst all!!

What a cool idea ya?

[eidos]

Macro gathering is cheating because a third party program is playing the game for you.

I dont see any cheating by using a small weight on the button hotbar for mining/woodcutting.

I dont see the point of banning ppl for AFK macroing in a full loot game.

If you see a macroer then kill him and get free loot.

If you dont want see macroer in the town area, dont make ressource avaible under guards zone.

Blaming ppl for poor game mechanisme is always the easy way and always lead in a less played game.

End of disscussion.